Re: Wheel v Pad & Assists v No Assists
@GregStarz Just a quick question, what difficulty are you leagues on? Like what AI difficulty would you choose for a good fight against the AI?
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Both very competitive, 105 AI I use for GP practice sessions- @GregStarz Ok thats not too bad but for both no assists and wheel usage its a different set of skills. Its proven that the only assist that can give you an advantage when driving at your best is ABS. But if you make mistakes you will obviously loseout over assist users. Same with Pad vs Wheel, you got much more precision with a wheel but if you dont utilize this to its full potential a pad can still outperform you and it should be like that.
If you ask for a further nerf of TC, Pad and such this would lead to pad users with TC on unable to fight more than 100 AI even if they would be competing with esports drivers on a wheel without assists. Its a very delicate balance and every player has a different driving style, some might get favoured by a strong ABS, some might not gain at all because they are already braking like if they had no ABS. Some are very used to the way the throttle gets applied on a pad but dont have a feel for wheel/pedals. Point is its really depending on the player how good what is, best example IMO are Opmeers test videos, he is setting a base laptime (with very little to no practice time) and then does laps with assists turned on and he never improved, only got fairly close with ABS on in 2021. If ABS was as OP in basis he would improve but he already brakes almost perfectly so there is almost nothing to gain. However with players than dont play at such high level - even 105 is not comparable to Esports accuracy - ABS makes a bigger difference as you will make more mini mistakes/not do it perfectly every time so ABS can actually keep you closer to perfect.
Its never gonna be perfectly balanced as depending on your personal skills and driving style everything has a different impact on your laptimes
@Meza994 wrote:
If you ask for a further nerf of TC, Pad and such this would lead to pad users with TC on unable to fight more than 100 AI...Why would this be any sort of problem?
I always get torn with discussions like this. I drive without assists as I like the challenge and the feeling I'm having as much impact on what happens as I can, but I'm sure I could be quicker it I turned TC and ABS on. So I fully understand the appeal of giving more of an advantage to those driving without assists but equally it would be artificial if this were the case.
- @Ultrasonic_77 So the first problem is that the AI is better at higher difficulties, so makes less stupid mistakes (crashing into you on purpose) and better balanced performance over the season.
The second problem is its artificially slowing people down, even if someone drives perfect and doesnt utilize the effect of TC/ABS it would cost them laptime - otherwise a nerf wouldnt work because with perfect inputs it would still be the fastest possible.. Especially for offline players like myself who just want to enjoy racing and not be all the time 100% concentrated forced lower difficulty or forced No Assists would suck..
I can see the reason for online play but there is just no good balance. Some drivers that were equalling no assist players while using assists might be far behind then or not be affected at all, its just a tough "fix"
@Meza994 wrote:
The second problem is its artificially slowing people down, even if someone drives perfect and doesnt utilize the effect of TC/ABS it would cost them laptime - otherwise a nerf wouldnt work because with perfect inputs it would still be the fastest possible..We've got games doing electronic aids better. Doesn't need to be "artificial", just have better hooks to work with. F1 22 having more data points for the load vs tyre grip dataset is a good opportunity to work on this.
- Work demand goes up, grip allows it
- Work nears limit of grip, grip still allows it
- Work exceeds grip a bit, you feel the wheelspin increasing or the tyres rumbling under braking but can still carry on
- Work decisively exceeds grip, wheelspin makes the rear step out or you get total wheel lock up under braking.
Total grip (or capacity for work) decreases between 2 and 3 and falls significantly between 3 and 4. A good driver with said perfect inputs would know to ease off when in stage 3.
This is simplifying things a bit, but you'll generally always get something along those lines.
The general perception is that TC and ABS work "too well" in the game. A great player would know to keep the car below 3 and when it touches stage 4, the cut in power or brake pressure is relatively modest. Best of all worlds, can push to the ceiling and not be that harshly penalized when engaging the electronic aids.
With more "conservative" electronics, like those in Gran Turismo or when you crank up TC and ABS to high settings in ACC, the aids' intervention cuts the input so much that the (generally oblivious) driver gets set back to stage 2. They leave performance on the table.
I love that Opmeer's video. Shows exactly that, electronics do not make a player good, it doesn't give you time or super traction or the like. He couldn't set a better time with any of the aids on. However, there's still room to make either the input cut more severe when going from 3 to 4 or make it so the aids engage earlier in stage 3. The latter would be more akin to the electronics fitted in a road car.
Either is fine by me. The misconstrued "electronics make you faster" is a fad I'm tired of already, they do not, but there's room to make TC and ABS less forgiving for those players with no sense for the threshold between 3 and 4. Could finally put the matter to rest.
The franchise finally having a tyre model with enough "resolution" in load sensitivity is a good opportunity to find tune these things.
- @mariohomoh Obviously there is room, didnt deny it, all im saying is that finding the perfect balance where nobody complains - its too much, its too little, pad is too hard, pad is op - is impossible for Codemasters, but again adjustments are possible and for ABS needed (based on 2021), dont see it for TC though, Opmeer was 0.5s slower in his tests, seems fair to me.
But yes especially now they got the chance.. Opmeer will likely put out another of his videos so we will see if things have changed then
@Meza994 wrote:
@Ultrasonic_77So the first problem is that the AI is better at higher difficulties, so makes less stupid mistakes (crashing into you on purpose) and better balanced performance over the season.If this were true I could understand your perspective but honestly I think it's hard to be sure whether it is or not. Relative performance of player and AI will be a big contributor too.
Regarding online I think particularly ranked should make a distinction for no assist drivers, either by placing a rank ceiling for drivers with assists, or having a separate 'no assists' section and ranking system.
I'd also really like to see filters on time-trial leaderboards to be able to show only no-assist times, or of course a separate no-assists leaderboard but that seems less likely.
I think changes like these would reduce arguments for their 'needing' to be artificial performance limits imposed when using assists.
@GregStarz I agree, pad is getting some kind of “simplified drive”, I watched very fast people (3-4 tenths from WR) preferring to race with pad rather than wheel because of that and yes, it’s a bit frustrating at least as we do not have differentiated rankings and options to choose whether allow pad or not (I’m a 107 AI no assists wheel racer).
About aids we know, at least ABS is OP also because you can use more rotating (so faster) settings without fearing any kind of tyres blocking. Once again everyone should enjoy the game, I understand, but at least differentiated rankings would be necessary IMHO.
Regards,
Nuv
