Forum Discussion

Re: Less strafing, more aiming

@Trenix wrote:
Most online shooters have similar issues, where players move left to right non-stop to avoid getting shot, whether they're being attacked or not. I also do it, because there is nothing which penalizes me from doing it. I've played both casual and realistic shooters and something that I've realized is that gameplay is far better when strafing penalizes you. My suggestion is that when moving around, your cross-hair starts to wave around until you stop moving. The player which stands still and is aiming, should always have the advantage.

Think of it as a recoil for moving around. You should be able to still do it, but you will be slightly penalized for doing it. Perhaps weapons which are larger, could have a more severe recoil for moving while shooting. That way, more agile players will want smaller guns, which may not be powerful, but allow you to dodge while in a gunfight.

There's already mechanics in the game to make strafing repetitively not insanely effective and to favor lighter weapons for movespeed.

When strafing left and right, each time you change direction you lose all momentum and you accelerate back up to your max speed. Thus if you spam A LOT you actually move really slow and barely change positioning at all. Due to how this mechanic works it forces players to make the decision of maintaining the same predictable direction at a decent speed or to change directions at the cost of speed. Planetside 2 for a long time didn't have this at all and lead to situations like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTVf59lk2A0 (the TR Heavy Infantry on the Stairs that kills the player recording) and another clips from the same player shooting at the same dude again accept NivX is playing as NC and is running away https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzkPj3liG8I
Each set of weapons have their own movespeed modifier when in ADS. Pistols is basically full walk speed with a gun out (RE-45 is 5% slower), shotguns are 10% slower (Mozambique is 0% slower), Sniper Rifles are 65% slower, LMGs are 60% slower, SMGs are 15% slower and Assault Rifles at 50% slower.

Their's also already some level of balance of exactly what you're asking for. Granted most weapons have different Values for this and attachments have a huge effect on some of them.

Using the R-301 as an example.

If you're moving your spread increases 3x as fast, if you're moving your base hipfire spread is 2.2x higher than standing still hipfire, sprinting hipfire is 2.8x higher than standing still hipfire. Those values are currently not modified by attachments. There's also "weapon sway" for ADS and moving as well, the values are "4" and "-4" not exactly how far 4 or -4 is from center but it does exist. I believe having a better stock greately reduces this debuff.

@Trenix wrote:
The player which stands still and is aiming, should always have the advantage.
Now it's hard to discern what level of "advantage" you're talking about here. Technically speaking they already have an advantage in terms of bullet spread and weapon drift. If you're talking about a level of advantage where the person who's standing still should win, I say hell no. It would turn the game into this
Player1: oh I saw you first, I WIN
Player2: LOL my gun has 40% higher DPS...
Player1: WTF! this game sucks...

It would actually take mechanical skill out of the game by doing that and make it all about reaction time and weapon DPS rather than movement and funnily enough Aim. By nerfing movement you actually decrease the overall mechanical depth of Aiming, it doesn't take a whole lot of skill to shoot at a target standing still trying to out DPS you...

It's actually kinda horrifying now that I think about it, you want to take away the choices and mechanics of movement from a player that would just so happen to make having good aim less relevant. All in all reducing the overall mechanical depth by a significant amount, and thus reducing the absolute best players (think Shroud and Dizzy) to being marginal ahead of mediocre players (think you and I) rather than significantly ahead. That's not right and honestly I don't think it would be as fun, it should be about out playing the other player not shooting first or having a higher DPS.

I'll give an exception that specific weapons could be balanced in a way like what you're talking about. The Wingman is a very good example of this, it's far to accurate and does way to much burst damage for how fast you can move with it in ADS. If the ADS movespeed of the Wingman was closer to that of SMGs or perhaps a bit slower it would be much better imo. (I'm of the mind the Wingman ROF nerf was basically meaningless outside of some super specific scenarios)

3 Replies

Karsot
7 years ago
@Comanglia
"Using the R-301 as an example.
If you're moving your spread increases 3x as fast, if you're moving your base hipfire spread is 2.2x higher than standing still hipfire, sprinting hipfire is 2.8x higher than standing still hipfire. Those values are currently not modified by attachments. There's also "weapon sway" for ADS and moving as well, the values are "4" and "-4" not exactly how far 4 or -4 is from center but it does exist. I believe having a better stock greately reduces this debuff."
?????? Where the * do you get those numbers from exactly? Mind sharing with the rest of us the profound knowledge only you seem to have access to? I mean a link to an official document from Respawn or an official page from Respawn? Anything other than an excel screen crop?
Also if there are already like you said mechanics that make strafing not worth it why is everyone still strafing??? Could it be because the mechanics in place do not work properly? Could it be because oh i don't know the hitboxes are manipulated the more your strafe thus making you a much harder target to hit?
Also you refer to mechanical skill when talking about addadada spam? Literally 2 line macro... Great skill yeah. It would be skill if all characters had the exact same size hitboxes, the exact same base speed and the exact same weapons equiped. Right now it is not a skill. Why? Because i can adadadada till tomorrow while on wraith with an evo 8 and still kill any opponent that has a slightly larger hitbox than me using any other type of weapon apart from a shotgun... It's not skill believe me. It's playing the system to get an advantage. Btw if you throw into that loop the ping players are getting depending on which data center they are connected to as well as lag etc, i am pretty sure skill is just a concept that flies out of the window.
Comanglia
6 years ago
Haven't logged into this site in awhile and I'm just loling at the fact you think only I have access to this info.
So many people so willing to complain about ultra specific stats that have not the slightest clue about them and doesn't even bother looking.
PC players can literally find everyone of those values by enabling
cl_showpos 1
you can bind this to a key or have this in the launch options for the game. I can only assume these values are the same or extremely similar on console where "cl_showpos 1" may not be something you can get working.
Go to the Training area with cl_showpos 1
In the top left of your screen you'll see something like this
name:
pos:
ang:
vel:
pos = position this measures your coordinates as X, Z, Y this is in Hammer Units
ang = angle (specifically where you're looking at in the middle of screen normally referred to as viewangle)
vel = velocity this is measured in Hammer Units per Second
Hammer Unit = Unit of measurement in Source Engine, please check source engine documentation by Valve posted on the Internet and can be found via the arcane google search engine
As for specific values related to movement and spread increase / spread decay rate it can be referenced directly from the game files, I'd tell you where/how but honestly I don't think you'll look since you're just raging about not knowing rather than actually looking. Since there's even a few websites that have information literally ripped from the game files about every weapon in the game you could actually find it really easily if you didn't want to go through the trouble to 100% verify for yourself.
@Karsot wrote:
Also if there are already like you said mechanics that make strafing not worth it why is everyone still strafing??? Could it be because the mechanics in place do not work properly? Could it be because oh i don't know the hitboxes are manipulated the more your strafe thus making you a much harder target to hit?
I didn't says strafing wasn't worth it, I said the mechanic already exists, and you should already know why people are strafing. Standing still = easy target.
ADAD Spam isn't an issue, game has movement acceleration where if you suddenly switch direction your movespeed is reset and then you accelerate up to your max movespeed, ADAD movement especially in ADS can't move fast enough in the game to desync Hitboxes in terms of Clientside Interpolation. Bloodhound Ult / Bangalore Double Time / Octane Stim probably are able to with rather stupid movement while sprinting. Pathfinder Grapple hook maybe, even though the movement would be a consistent movement. The Hitboxes aren't manipulated beyond the model due to movement AD movement.
@Karsot wrote:
Also you refer to mechanical skill when talking about addadada spam? Literally 2 line macro... Great skill yeah.

Again movement speed and acceleration reset to 0 everytime you change movement direction. ADAD spam has existed since the early days of multiplayer FPS. Quake and Unreal Tournament both had it and it was an accepted part of the game, and those games didn't have added spread from movement AT ALL. Then again both of those games if all you did was spam AD repeatedly you would just get mulched for having a relatively static position anyway xD. secretly hopes you say those game don't take skill or strategy cause of how horrifyingly wrong you would be.
@Karsot wrote:
It would be skill if all characters had the exact same size hitboxes, the exact same base speed and the exact same weapons equiped.
Quake and UT both had variable models in several of their iterations. All legends have the same base movement speed. Weapon choice is pretty RNG but that's not exactly a problem with AD spam now is it?
@Karsot wrote:
Right now it is not a skill. Why? Because i can adadadada till tomorrow while on wraith with an evo 8 and still kill any opponent that has a slightly larger hitbox than me using any other type of weapon apart from a shotgun...
Kraber = 1 shot headshot, Wingman Skullpiercing 3x headshots + Turbocharger Devotion/Havoc, R-301, R-99, Full Auto Prowler are all capable of Faster TTK to the body than an EVA-8. At the ranges the EVA-8 is effective it's actually pretty easy to counter AD spam really all you have to do is strafe more to 1 side of there's than the other, particularly effective if you can hipfire sprint -> crouch slide -> ADS. Otherwise you can ignore the crouch slide and just flick your mouse over to go the opposite way relative to them so they flick past you and then you have an easy lineup.
Timing your strafes properly > Mindlessly spamming AD
If someone strafing left and right over and over is to difficult to hit I highly recommend you load up something like Kovaak's Aim Trainer and do some of the Tracking scenarios like Close Fast Strafes Invincible and Close Long Strafe Invincible + thin variants.
@Karsot wrote:
It's not skill believe me. It's playing the system to get an advantage.
Why should I believe you? What skill do you have other than complaining about AD spam being to hard to hit?
You have any league experience in any multiplayer FPS?
It's also playing the system to get an advantage to control for recoil, or healing behind cover, or waiting for 2 other teams to fight and push them 10-15s later. I could come up with a ton more things but honestly that's kinda the point playing the game and developing a better understanding of the game mechanics + strategy + aim than your opponent.
@Karsot wrote:
Btw if you throw into that loop the ping players are getting depending on which data center they are connected to as well as lag etc, i am pretty sure skill is just a concept that flies out of the window.
Nothing to do with AD spam.
MekaDeth555
6 years ago
It's bad enough that we get slowed on hit. If you're having trouble hitting your targets then you need to practice more. When a game caters to the lowest skill players, it tends to die. L2P and git gud.