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There is an argument to be made why talking to pros is good feedback for any game. They know more about the game mechanics and map design than the average person. Like it or not this is more true than not.
i am not trying to excuse any exclusivity but pointing out an important point.
when I was building maps for Halo I came to learn the best source of feedback was from the highest level of players. Not only did they know more, they thought it out so well they could clearly articulate what they thought.
@MrGreenWithAGun
"when I was building maps for Halo I came to learn the best source of feedback was from the highest level of players. Not only did they know more, they thought it out so well they could clearly articulate what they thought."
That was never my experience. Most of them could not articulate at all why they thought something should be a certain way or not a certain way. And the vast majority of them would offer small advice here and a little critique there, and ever so gently dance around the plain fact that almost all of them preferred symmetrical arena-style maps as being the only possible configuration for "serious competition." So even if the project in question was asymmetrical, and possibly even foremost an aesthetic exercise, many of them would pick a corner of the map and say, "Why don't you just make the other three quarters the same as this?"
In the end I would look very, very carefully at the forge maps that made it into regular rotation and realize in mere seconds that these were nothing like the maps I envisioned and wanted to build or play on. I could get even uglier but that would be petty. Suffice to say that in many years of forge mode in both 4 and 5 I saw a handful of user-created maps that made me jealous. But only a handful. Most were the kind of project where I could eat a pile of primitives and puke a better map. Okay, that was the pettiness I was trying to avoid. I guess a better way of saying it is that one man's castle is another man's hovel. Yeah, that's more polite.
So no, I don't really take the pro's opinions to heart. Yes, they know more about how things work in high-level, high-speed, high-stakes play. But in many ways I think that makes them less attuned to what a normal player experiences, and certainly less attuned to what a normal player wants. Imo.
"when I was building maps for Halo I came to learn the best source of feedback was from the highest level of players. Not only did they know more, they thought it out so well they could clearly articulate what they thought."
That was never my experience. Most of them could not articulate at all why they thought something should be a certain way or not a certain way. And the vast majority of them would offer small advice here and a little critique there, and ever so gently dance around the plain fact that almost all of them preferred symmetrical arena-style maps as being the only possible configuration for "serious competition." So even if the project in question was asymmetrical, and possibly even foremost an aesthetic exercise, many of them would pick a corner of the map and say, "Why don't you just make the other three quarters the same as this?"
In the end I would look very, very carefully at the forge maps that made it into regular rotation and realize in mere seconds that these were nothing like the maps I envisioned and wanted to build or play on. I could get even uglier but that would be petty. Suffice to say that in many years of forge mode in both 4 and 5 I saw a handful of user-created maps that made me jealous. But only a handful. Most were the kind of project where I could eat a pile of primitives and puke a better map. Okay, that was the pettiness I was trying to avoid. I guess a better way of saying it is that one man's castle is another man's hovel. Yeah, that's more polite.
So no, I don't really take the pro's opinions to heart. Yes, they know more about how things work in high-level, high-speed, high-stakes play. But in many ways I think that makes them less attuned to what a normal player experiences, and certainly less attuned to what a normal player wants. Imo.
- @reconzero : And the vast majority of them would offer small advice here and a little critique there, and ever so gently dance around the plain fact that almost all of them preferred symmetrical arena-style maps as being the only possible configuration for "serious competition."
I can tell you symmetrical maps are the only real choice for competitive matches unless you are playing an asymmetrical game type, like one flag. Think of basket ball (full symmetry) and base ball (full asymmetry).
I dont know who was in your circle, but I kept myself hanging around with some of the best (not pros).- @MrGreenWithAGun
Both Halo developers created a spate of maps that were either only single-axis symmetrical, or had no symmetry whatsoever, and most of those I count as the better maps from every different version of the game. Of course, I clearly remember competitive players railing against maps like Fathom and Overgrowth (though oddly never The Rig) and everyone is entitled to their opinion. But to this day I will never understand why symmetrical maps are considered more competitive. A forger (or developer) who can't engineer out the gameplay imbalances in an asymmetrical map is, imo, not doing their job. And I hate respawning into a map and not being able to tell where the hell I am because every place on it looks like every other place on it. I call that a failure of imagination.
Again, all IMO.- @reconzero
A truly symmetrical map like narrows or the pit are regarded as the better maps for competitive play because there is absolutely no complaining of any benefit from either side. That is the only issue.
This has NOTHING to do with maps authored by Bungie for commercial use. I am talking strictly MLG.
But asymmetry is the most beautiful and interesting. Like baseball, you really need to restrict those maps to asymmetrical games.
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