Network Manipulation

Not to rain on your QAnon, but they couldn't even pull off double XP a couple weeks ago, and you think they are doing sophisticated network manipulation?  I don't think so.   By far the more likely scenario is that they have not properly optimized the crossplay, so it's a hot mess.

---

@RaginSam wrote:

This is my attempt at getting some answers from Dice on this topic. I've tried to start a similar thread, but I don't think that it was direct enough.

Please support this thread if you're experiencing similar issues and feel the same. If you don't like the way I write for whatever reason and want to start your own thread about this topic, I have no problem supporting that thread. My intentions are just to get answers regarding any sort of Network Manipulation.

My theory has been that Console players are given some sort of an advantage when it comes to hit reg. Like they get priority, the server checks their shots first, then the PC players. Or maybe PC players are put a couple tick updates behind Console players. I find it hard to believe regardless of rank (time spent playing the game), weapon, and other factors that Console players can kill me so quickly and so consistently that fast. Even when a Console player resuscitates me, it doesn't show them doing the animation. 

I can't say this experience has been exclusive with Console players anymore. More recently, the frequency of quick Time to Death from PC players has increased as well. I still believe Console players have some sort of an advantage with hit reg and priority, but something else is happening as well. 

Someone brought up that perhaps there's something like a "Skill Based Hit Registration" going on. There's been a lot of talk about that happening in games like COD. From my experience playing COD, I will never touch that game again because of that manipulated feeling. I just have a hard time believing Dice would do anything like that, but I could be wrong.

My questions are:

Dice,

Are you doing anything to manipulate the Network in any way to give some players an advantage?

Are you manipulating the network connections in attempt to balance players?

Are you changing hit registration for certain players?

Are you changing the size of certain players hit boxes?

Are you giving Console players any sort of advantage with Crossplay?

There's ethical ways to increase sales, and then there's really unethical ways to increase revenue. Including a cash shop in game for cosmetics is perfectly okay. Giving people some sort of a network advantage after making a purchase is completely unacceptable.

When I purchase a game, I expect my connection to not be manipulated in ANY way. I really think that it should be made illegal to do that. It's not only unethical, but it's really bad for mental health. If I find enjoyment from trying to better myself in game, but there are systems in place to try to hinder myself and others... it's just a disgusting practice.

To be clear, I'm not claiming any of this to be factual, and I'm not accusing Dice of any manipulation besides Crossplay. I still stand by my theory and strongly believe that there is some level of manipulation with Crossplay.

I just want direct answers from a Dice developer regarding this topic. This is a petition in attempt to do so. Please support this thread if you want answers and to see if we can get ANY communication on their "Official" forum. If my theories are completely wrong about Crossplay, please correct me Dice. I want to better understand how the network operates, and maybe you can put some of us at ease with some answers.

---

I hope I wouldn't be considered as a delusional after reading people having these types of ideation on Internet. That's so far fetched idea and even if it's true which I seriously doubt, it's a game where PC has superior input method over consoles. That's legitimately compensated by aim assist and some of the players on consoles use "illegal" hardware to boost their play field.

I wouldn't say this is exclusive to PC. I refuse to play at the moment for the suspect hit regristration and one frame deaths. It does seem worse when engaging other console players, but that may have to do with console outnumbering PC and the fact they have aim assist.

---

@DaMutha1 wrote:

Not to rain on your QAnon, but they couldn't even pull off double XP a couple weeks ago, and you think they are doing sophisticated network manipulation?  I don't think so.   By far the more likely scenario is that they have not properly optimized the crossplay, so it's a hot mess.

---

Well you're not a Dice developer, so you didn't rain on anything.

Did you read my entire post? That's a bit unfair don't you think to call me a conspiracy theorist? I did mention that these aren't facts, just theories and that I'm completely open to a developer informing me of how things actually work. I'll accept that answer.

I do have a lot of experience playing this game with around 2k hours in BF2042 alone. It's near impossible to win a 1v1 in CQC against a Console player in this game. You can check my stats, but I have about a 6.5 KD against human players. I must be doing something right? Yet, every encounter with a Console player, my death is unnaturally instant. How does everyone have the same connection? Every PC player that I play with feel the same way. It's always this instant, one frame death.

It could just be bad networking, and Battlefield has a history with previous games having the same issue. No Battlefield game has felt perfect by any means. With the introduction of Corssplay however, it just feels noticeably worse.

If you understand how the networking and hit reg work in this game, feel free to share and explain it to me.

---

@Agent10_Alex wrote:

I wouldn't say this is exclusive to PC. I refuse to play at the moment for the suspect hit regristration and one frame deaths. It does seem worse when engaging other console players, but that may have to do with console outnumbering PC and the fact they have aim assist.

---

That's fair and It could be that simple.

It just seems more than aim assist though. They won't even be looking at me, I'll starting shooting them and landing my shots, and then they'll flip to me and kill me instantly. What I see and what they see are like two completely different lobbies.

It's also the consistency of it that really bothers me. 45hz servers aren't helping anything either.

I would just love to hear from an actual developer. Even Respawn wrote an entire article explaining how their network operates and their philosophy behind it.

---

@RaginSam wrote:

---

@DaMutha1 wrote:

Not to rain on your QAnon, but they couldn't even pull off double XP a couple weeks ago, and you think they are doing sophisticated network manipulation?  I don't think so.   By far the more likely scenario is that they have not properly optimized the crossplay, so it's a hot mess.

---

Well you're not a Dice developer, so you didn't rain on anything.

Did you read my entire post? That's a bit unfair don't you think to call me a conspiracy theorist? I did mention that these aren't facts, just theories and that I'm completely open to a developer informing me of how things actually work. I'll accept that answer.

I do have a lot of experience playing this game with around 2k hours in BF2042 alone. It's near impossible to win a 1v1 in CQC against a Console player in this game. You can check my stats, but I have about a 6.5 KD against human players. I must be doing something right? Yet, every encounter with a Console player, my death is unnaturally instant. How does everyone have the same connection? Every PC player that I play with feel the same way. It's always this instant, one frame death.

It could just be bad networking, and Battlefield has a history with previous games having the same issue. No Battlefield game has felt perfect by any means. With the introduction of Corssplay however, it just feels noticeably worse.

If you understand how the networking and hit reg work in this game, feel free to share and explain it to me.

---

I would say there is nothing "special" built-in, it is just how they built the crossplay to work.

Essentially, if aim assist is enabled, for simplicity's sake, once you are hit with the first shot, you are basically dead, but because there is an extra step in the process on the console side, the non-aim assist player has to "wait" for the update. Since their last update, they have already died, so it feels like it is instant. You died on the server a few updates ago, but your client had to wait for the aim-assist update which is a tick behind (extra step). The shots will come in bundled because of the time nudge and it seems that right when you were visible, you died. 

Try this, create a portal server with bots on max difficulty and let me know if your deaths feel similar. They should because the same thing is at work with the bots on the server side assists.

Another way to put it, with a very basic example. It doesn't work exactly like this because you have client data going out, the server receiving the data, then sending updates back to the clients, rinse and repeat.

TTK for weapon is 200ms, 5 shots to kill, 50ms RoF. 

Server Tick rate is 22.2ms (45Hz)

First shot hits at 0, 2nd shot hits at 66.6ms, because that was the first update after 50ms. So now you won't get the 3rd shot until 111ms, 4th shot hits at 155.4ms, and kill shot hits at 222ms even though on the client it occurred at 200ms. Does that make sense so far?  Server Ticks of 0, 3, 2, 2, 3.

So that is for PC (or Console w/o AA), the server has to verify every shot hit. So even though the weapon you are using has a theoretical TTK of 200ms based on RoF and damage, you won't kill anyone until at least 222ms. This is also dependent on your ping and the time nudge, so at best 222ms, but likely greater.

Now for console, with AA enabled, the server is assisting with the hits (basically counting them based solely on the weapon's damage and RoF), so there is no need to "check" to see what the client did like on PC, so at the server, the other player is dead at 200ms and the non-AA player's kill shot doesn't hit the server until at least 222ms.

The non-AA player gets the death notice at 222ms that they died at 200ms, and more than likely gets two bullets instantly hit at once with what feels like an extremely high RoF insta-death.

Those are bundled shots because of the absurd 45Hz server tick rate, 2 shots (or more) may fall in between updates, and on the distant end you get all those updates at once. I think the K30 can fit 3-4 shots in between some updates (ridiculous).

45Hz is criminal with the speed of the players, vehicles, and RoF of most weapons. That is what you are feeling.

@AdamonicThanks for taking the time to reply. I understand what you're saying regarding the server tick rates and how damage can get clumped together. I remember people calling that "super bullets" back in BF3 days. That's been an onging issue forever it seems, and you did a great job of explaining that. I appreciate it.

I don't think there's anything wrong with asking a very direct question and expecting an exact answer though. Like they can't lie about it, so if they just responded with a simple, "No, we absolutely don't do anything like that". I don't think that's an unreasonable request?

There's also the issue of players not taking damage, which in my experience is mostly with Console players. Then there's taking damage before they're visibly on my screen. That could be caused by the low tick rate, but it's more than that. If they slowly walk out of cover, crouched, and I'm just hitting their shoulder as the step out of cover, continue to hit them as their character becomes more visible, I should win that fight 100% of the time. Yet, I've been killed quite a few times like that. Even though I know where they are and they have no idea where I'm at.

You're absolutely right though, the tick rate of the servers with the ROF and TTK of the game doesn't line up well at all. It's a big issue in itself.

There hasn't been a single game that I've played yet where Crossplay feels okay. I just wished that developers would ditch the idea already for shooters.