Please No random bullet spread!
Man 2042 got be so hyped that I went back from more or less only playing R6S to playing some battlefield 4.
The random spray recoil patterns are so unbelievably frustrating. Knowing my sight in on...
Forum Discussion
@Neovisi0n Skill cap?
Is trigger control not a 'skill'?
Is mitigating spread mechanics not a 'skill'?
If not, why are they less of a 'skill' than pulling down slightly on a stick, an action that is arguably easier with a mouse?
Is trigger control not a 'skill'?
Is mitigating spread mechanics not a 'skill'?
If not, why are they less of a 'skill' than pulling down slightly on a stick, an action that is arguably easier with a mouse?
@Trokey66RNG inherently introduces a skill cap because its random ie. not controllable... There is absolutely no reason your bullets should not land on your reticle. I'm not saying guns should not have recoil, that would be stupid, but the gun its self should introduce that inaccuracy, not an RNG mechanic that makes your bullets not land on the point that you're aiming at...
if im aiming at a target and I have perfect recoil control so that my reticle stays on the exact same point the entire time im shooting, there is no reasonable reason that my bullets should be spread out in a random circle. period.
Its annoying and is not based in reality.
I also don't know why you think removing the RNG removes the need for trigger control...
Also, mitigating spread mechanics is still there, its just based on actual weapon recoil instead of RNG
- @Neovisi0n But because I know SIPS is there, why is trigger control less of a 'skill'.
Indeed, one could argue that point and click is less of a 'skill' and (although I hate to bring in the realism argument) there are nriys reason why a round 'doesn't go where the gun points'.
Also spread mechanics and indeed suppression adds a layer to the gameplay that was missing in BFV. It became whoever saw who first won.@Trokey66Apart from range, non sighted in optics, or poor weapon maintenance, the is no reason your bullets should not be landing on your reticle.
I still don't see why you think having realistic recoil and removing RNG also removed the need for good trigger control. Burst firing a weapon still reduces gun recoil, but you should not have to do it due to an RNG mechanic.
You're right, If I see you first, and have better aim and recoil control then on top of gun mechanics am also in a better position than you, I should win the gunfight, I don't see what the issue with that is.- @Neovisi0n What about physical, physiological and environmental impacts? The 'heat of battle' if you like that we don't experiance on a sofa?
While maintaining control of recoil is easier to learn and manage than luck based spread mechanics, it puts the onus entirely on the player to excel at the situation they are in. If the player misses their shots, that's entirely on them; they are the reason they missed, not an unpredictable random number generator.
With RNG spread system, you can have two equally capable players, playing with the same equipment with equal efficiency and the outcome won't be decided by one player outplaying the other but rather because the game decided that one bullet from one player will hit it's target this time but one bullet from the other player won't.
Personally I consider any degree of randomness to be bad for gameplay as it removes player agency from the situation in which it is employed and leaves the results in the hands of a figurative roll of the dice. Great system for RPGs but not so much for PvP FPS.
Nothing worse than powering your way through the recoil/suppression to line up a headshot only to see the bullet zoom off diagonally 😛.
BFV might not be my most favourite in the series, but at least the gunplay was on point
@TTZ_Dipsy wrote:Nothing worse than powering your way through the recoil/suppression to line up a headshot only to see the bullet zoom off diagonally 😛.
BFV might not be my most favourite in the series, but at least the gunplay was on point
I agree that it feels bad to have the bullet go diagonally.
But I think it is bad if one can power through the recoil of a Gun like AEK cause being able to do so breaks the balance of the tradeoff between high recoil and high RoF/Damage.
If a high RoF weapon can be legitimately controlled then it becomes an ultimate weapon that obsoletes the more tame weapons. One can just compare the times they die in BFV to Type 2a, suommi and ZK compared to MP34, Sten etc.
I'm pretty much with Enders on this
@A_al_K_pacino_AI agree with him to an extent, but this is also not what im arguing about. Your reticle should be locked to the center of your screen. what he doesn't realize is that the spread he like is still the same as the sight moving around, just instead that randomization is only seen in the bullet rather than in the sight placement on your screen. I hate this too. I think randomization should be completely removed all together, I don't care if its experienced in the sight or in the bullet, they're both crap.
I hope 2042 takes a note from Rainbow 6 siege by removing all RNG and make the control only based on the actual recoil of the gun, You still need a very large amount of skill, but there is no RNG.technically, BFV's mechanic is a lot more realistic, but I would prefer that be left for games like squad or arma.
The thing is that the viewkick system alone has it's limits in creating natural and realistic recoil patterns. Often leads to very linear laser-like patterns when no rng is used.
Also a fixed reticle gives a very unreal experience, because that's just not how it works irl, the reticle is not glued to your eyeballs.
I feel both technique's (viewkick + visual recoil) are necessary to create a balanced and more authentic gunplay experience.
The majority of people here wouldn't recognize what realistic gun handling mechanics were if they were firing a real gun.
- @akula_r I think if you bullets are landing somewhere else other than where your reticle is placed, you might want to check the tightness of your optic mounting solution....
BF5 is technically more realistic bc obviously in real life your eye is not hard locked to your reticle, but if your gun is properly set up, I see no reason why your bullet wouldn't hit the location your reticle was at when you initially shot....
- @A_al_K_pacino_A I was pissed years ago when westie passed this on. Forget which idiot started this.
@Neovisi0n "random is not controlled"
Do you mean recoil or spread.
BF4 had what some called visual recoil it meant barrel and scope actual had different recoil and spread.
BF1 did not have this but had increase spread which could be controlled by ROF.
Had the most realistic bullet performance.
BF5 switch this to recoil which can be controlled by player(programs) and had a non-centre return which is important factor for a follow up shoot on slow ROF weapons.You say guns need inaccuracy(recoil) that is the one thing many guns have improved over time. Precision(spread) is starting to be overcome with smart bullets and yes the spread cone is real. If you want you can look up precision and accuracy to see what I am talking about.
Anyway we need to look at what guns do in game, spread is applied to the bullet before and when the bullet is in flight. Recoil is applied to the weapon(next bullet) after the bullet is fired.
We need to stop looking at a one type fits all scheme.
Let's look at the first shot facts like movement(spread), position(spread) and weapon barrelling(spread) are factors for pre-fire. Drag, gravity, distance are flight issues.
When you have a zero spread with huge recoil weapon will have the same precision at 100m or 10,000m. So sniper rifle no matter how much random recoil is used will never become inaccurate.Adding spread to low ROF weapons is a must. This spread will also help limit range.
While a no spread and some recoil sound good for high ROF. There is a serious problem.
That is single fire mode and burst control would make these weapon way more accurate then a single fire weapons. So a level of spread is going to be needed.
DICE needs to look at 2 settings for modern weapons for select fire mode or create a level of spread that makes slight worse in single fire than single shot weapons.
I leave it there as more detail information is required.
I believe that the best recoil should be a really strong recoil that forces trigger discipline on anything other than very close ranges.
Also a recoil that increases when one shoots while moving to highlight the more unsteady footing.
Random or not, the no lifers and recoil macro users will learn the recoil and start to laser people like in BFV. So it needs to be strong enough that they cannot do that.
- @UP_Hawxxeye core gameplay mechanics should not be designed with the aim of combating cheaters (like macro users) IMO
- @DingoKillr Maybe I should change the title to say spread rather than recoil.
I'm talking about the distinct point that the bullet hits in comparison to the placement of the reticle at the time the bullet leaves the barrel.
In reality in the field (negating weapon maintenance and such), these two at not always going to be on top of each other due to environmental effects and bullet spin, however, even these effects are often predictable and only take a notable effect at long ranges. to replicate these effects in software would require active simulation, which I think we can agree this is not something that should realistically be added in a videogame like battlefield.
RNG spread is NOT a good substitute for this, in a 15m engagement, the deviation in bullet spread is not going to cause a bullet to hit several inches away from where you're aiming... there are plenty of ways of balancing weapons without introducing RNG mechanics.- @Neovisi0n No, there is not plenty of ways.
If you missing in 15m is on you. I can't think of one single weapon in any BF that would miss at 15m. Unless your jumping around.
F88 is accurate to 500m IRL you can't have that in a game at full auto. So you need something like spread to reduce that range.
