Great notes! I agree with a good number of the changes. I posted my own set of suggestions that have a lot in common a while back
I feel like the SOFLAM doesn't really need to be changed in terms of damage, but the lock-on time decrease is a good way to make it harder for air vehicles to escape if they don't make that their #1 priority.
I think buffing AA projectile velocity and damage, along with removing the sluggish turret acceleration (while still keeping rotation speed limits) will help while fighting jets. If that's not enough to improve their effectiveness against air, giving them a radar-based lead indicator would make it a lot easier to aim.
Honestly, I think with the greater numbers of players and other vehicles, I don't think the jet cannon max range needs a reduction, especially not with the spread and damage the way they are. Jets need that much increased lethality to be a viable spawn choice when attack choppers are much easier to do well with.
@GamerlnParadise wrote:I feel like the SOFLAM doesn't really need to be changed in terms of damage, but the lock-on time decrease is a good way to make it harder for air vehicles to escape if they don't make that their #1 priority.
I think buffing AA projectile velocity and damage, along with removing the sluggish turret acceleration (while still keeping rotation speed limits) will help while fighting jets. If that's not enough to improve their effectiveness against air, giving them a radar-based lead indicator would make it a lot easier to aim.
Honestly, I think with the greater numbers of players and other vehicles, I don't think the jet cannon max range needs a reduction, especially not with the spread and damage the way they are. Jets need that much increased lethality to be a viable spawn choice when attack choppers are much easier to do well with.
Thank you for your feedback!
It's always a challenge to reply to feedback on individual changes as this proposal is designed as a comprehensive plan and as such some items when looked at individually may not register
at first glance, but looked at in the context of the larger picture with all changes accounted for their existence should make more sense.
1) The SOFLAM changes have to be considered in the context of shorter range for the 30mm heli cannon, fix for the AA missile dodging bug, better traverse and maximum angles for the Wildcat AA, better damage for the Wildcat AA missiles and better damage for the 25mm jet cannon vs aircraft. I'm generally not a fan of OHK vehicle weapons to begin with and assuming with all those items factored in, having OHK (even for a "teamwork") weapon is overkill IMO.
2) The damage, at least at short range, is vicious. Admittedly though I haven't checked the droppoff so I will add that to my list of things to do. There definitely should be droppoff but if it is too severe like the jet cannon 25mm for example then it can cause an imbalance.
3) It's specifically the 30mm jet cannon that needs this as the 25 only ranges out to 800m and since it doesn't penetrate Wildcat armor there's little reason to adjust it. But Jet 30mm vs Wildcat AA you're looking at 1300m vs 700m respectively - almost double. For the SU57 this is not as big a deal (still a problem though) but for the F35 which can VTOL it can be a huge issue as you can simply kite the Wildcat and there is nothing they can do except run for cover.
Separately, although not explicitly mentioned, the damage dropoff adjustment for the 25mm Jet Cannon in the proposal would help increase damage vs infantry which would strike a good balance between jet vs infantry. They'll still have high spread cannons that discourage use against man sized targets BUT if they do decide to attack they'll at least do more damage. Conversely, infantry can be assured that if jets do want to strafe them effectively they'll need to get in close to do so which renders the jets vulnerable to AA counter-attack. This avoids a scenario where jets can kill infantry from 900m away leaving their teammates with no method of retaliation.
I use the manpads a lot in combination with Rao and I can say with certainty that they are completely unreliable at hitting their target. I can't be sure if it's from dodging, broken tracking or because they're too slow to catch up with the aircraft or a combination of two or more things but in scenarios where I know the enemy can not flare, the AA missile will often not hit the enemy.
I wonder if there is differences between mouse controls on PC and stick controls on console.
It's either that or the game is simply not relaying the information that the stinger has successfully hit.
@rainkloud wrote:
@NoodlesocksIs this against Jets or Heli or both?
Mostly little birds and attack helicopters. The transports seem to be hit more reliably. Jets too if they are already close when you launch but I haven't had much chance to test against jets since their speed makes them more difficult to hack.
Not sure if AA missiles disappear after a certain distance/time like many other projectiles in previous games.
Thank you for your feedback!
It's always a challenge to reply to feedback on individual changes as this proposal is designed as a comprehensive plan and as such some items when looked at individually may not register
at first glance, but looked at in the context of the larger picture with all changes accounted for their existence should make more sense.
1) The SOFLAM changes have to be considered in the context of shorter range for the 30mm heli cannon, fix for the AA missile dodging bug, better traverse and maximum angles for the Wildcat AA, better damage for the Wildcat AA missiles and better damage for the 25mm jet cannon vs aircraft. I'm generally not a fan of OHK vehicle weapons to begin with and assuming with all those items factored in, having OHK (even for a "teamwork") weapon is overkill IMO.
2) The damage, at least at short range, is vicious. Admittedly though I haven't checked the droppoff so I will add that to my list of things to do. There definitely should be droppoff but if it is too severe like the jet cannon 25mm for example then it can cause an imbalance.
3) It's specifically the 30mm jet cannon that needs this as the 25 only ranges out to 800m and since it doesn't penetrate Wildcat armor there's little reason to adjust it. But Jet 30mm vs Wildcat AA you're looking at 1300m vs 700m respectively - almost double. For the SU57 this is not as big a deal (still a problem though) but for the F35 which can VTOL it can be a huge issue as you can simply kite the Wildcat and there is nothing they can do except run for cover.
Separately, although not explicitly mentioned, the damage dropoff adjustment for the 25mm Jet Cannon in the proposal would help increase damage vs infantry which would strike a good balance between jet vs infantry. They'll still have high spread cannons that discourage use against man sized targets BUT if they do decide to attack they'll at least do more damage. Conversely, infantry can be assured that if jets do want to strafe them effectively they'll need to get in close to do so which renders the jets vulnerable to AA counter-attack. This avoids a scenario where jets can kill infantry from 900m away leaving their teammates with no method of retaliation.
1. I suppose that is where our design philosophies differ. I remember in BF3 when they made SOFLAMs bypass flares, locking onto a designated cocky chopper pilot on Kharg Island Rush with a Javelin, seeing him and his gunner futilely panic flare only for the top down attack to blow them up was practically euphoric. "Teamwork is OP" was a mantra of past BF games, and with all the vehicles at play at any moment in these larger modes, I think the increased infantry lethality cooperation provides does a better job of maintaining balance against vehicles that should allow one person to handle disorganized groups of footsoldiers.
2. I think the damage should be vicious up close. If the Bolte can wreck with one 30mm, then 2 that fire faster should be terrifying. There's a reason why Arma players get scared whenever they hear a Shilka fire. That's why I also suggest lowering the HP on the Wildcat and increasing the speed of Carl Gustav rockets, so that it becomes a glass cannon that is putting itself at risk whenever it is near infantry. I would also say to extend the range of the Wildcat cannons to 800-900m, since it should be either a tank's job to snipe AA, or scout car's job to ambush them in order to open up the airspace.
3. I would say let's fix the damage/spread/velocity first, then see if a range reduction is needed. As it stands right now, in tests against AI with the F-35 in hover mode, the spread becomes so bad that after a few bursts of a couple seconds, I can barely hit a MAV at 100m. As someone who was an ace pilot back on the 360, I think the 30mm attack jets in BF3 were the pinnacle of air to ground performance in any BF game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQMl1xk3nVk
1) And anything that is OP is, by definition, in need of fixing - mantra or not. Teamwork is not a catch all that can be used to excuse imbalances. I can't go into the car dealership with my wife with $10k and say I want to by a car for $20k and say that my $10k is worth $20k because it was earned with teamwork. $10k is $10k and the benefits of the SOFLAM'd RR should be commensurate with the effort involved and with attention paid to the potential imbalances involved. In this case the SOFLAM still delivers tremendous benefits as it can be used for spotting which has enormous value and the ability to turn what is usually an anti tank weapon into an anti air weapon that saps 2/3 health from a target is still pretty huge
2) You can't take literally things like if 1 cannon does x then 2 of the same cannon should do 2x as Balance > symmetry. As an aside, this holds true in IRL as there are many variations in cannon types even among the same caliber not to mention that ammunition type has to be factored into the equation. Glass cannoning vehicles is dubious to begin with in MP but when you have 128 players it is not really feasible not to mention the Wildcat also functions as a troop transport of sorts and the prospect of 4 players getting dusted before they can react is not appealing. Extending AA gun ranges can also have profound effects as it can lock down too much airspace. Consider that multiple vehicles can potentially go AA guns and create no fly zones. And since they can go ATGM as secondary they don't necessarily give up too much anti ground vehicle capability. Across the board you see ranges down from past entries and I believe the was done intentionally based on lessons learned from BF4 and with a mind on the effects of 128 players on combat dynamics.
3) Firing in shorter bursts will alleviate that problem. The 30mm on the Stealth jet is not meant to replicate the effects of the GAU cannons on the attack jets (which were fundamentally different vehicles than the SJ's). In BF2042 land it is meant to give you some capability against ground vehicles that, when used in conjunction with the AGM, gives you excellent A2G capabilities while still being effective at AA. Decreasing the spread makes it more effective vs infantry (which I don't want to see as that is the job of the 25mm) as well as jeeps which already vulnerable to the A2M and are a transport vehicle so they need to be cut a little slack.
