Re: Well Made Decisions

I love giving my opinion and hearing (or in this case reading) about other people thoughts so you're quite welcome and thank you for giving me the opportunity to express myself and to have taken the time to answer.

I admit, I never took both Vivienne and Cole on the same party, mostly because I don't take Cole with me that much. So I'll probably give it a try on my next playthrough to see and hear for myself what happens and what Cole has to say about... well basically everyone. I do agree with her about the fact that Circles can and should be improved, after all, we discover while talking with Wynne how the Circle can be a refuge as much as it is a prison for a lot of mages. To allow mages to have a voice and be heard whenever there is trouble with templars I'd agree but she takes it too far in my opinion. As I said, I appointed each of them as a Divine and so far Vivienne has what I consider the worst outcome.

I didn't see Cassandra as choosing the statu quo but you probably are right on that one. Thought it also depends on her successor as to how fast anything she does would be undone. Plus I don't remember Cassandra only wanting a reform of the Chantry, as a Seeker she did know a lot about how far Templars could go and she also wanted to seek a cure for the Tranquil if I remember correctly. So it would not exactly be Status Quo but close enough I guess. And yes anything she succeed in establishing would most likely be undone quite fast unless she has someone sharing her view succeeding her. And even then would things keep going on the right direction or start going backward in time. If there is one thing I do reflect on anytime I play DA (or ME) it is how things seems to circle over and over again. It just kind of escalates in Dragon Age, plus maybe we are supposed to appoint Vivienne as a mage so history would repeat itself and we'd get full circle with some kind of Andraste figure stepping up to stop the madness going on... Or Qunari would step in and subject everyone to the Qun.. Though this one will probably happen at some point in time or another.

I find Dragon Age to be a mirror of our reality, if you look closely (or even not so closely) you'll find the perfect mirror for the Chantry in our world. You'll also find people looking down at other because of their race and so on. This game has a full subtext so rich I'm pretty sure I only brushed the surface whenever I saw some similarity and it is part of what makes the game so great. We think about our choices and how it will affect those close to us (XXX approves or disapproves), then to those around us, what we are fighting for what that particular choice would mean for the future of whatever we want to achieve. And then we start to think long term. Like is it a good idea to basically destroy the Grey Wardens ? Or should I sacrifice this character or this one ? (Still not over that choice I'll admit). And even then you start questionning choices made in the previous game (The Dark Ritual, Belhen vs Harrowmont, Who to appoint on Ferelden's throne). For me that's what makes the games such good games, you have to reflect on your choices and you have virtually endless hours of game in front of you just so you'll find the best combination of actions. Or the ones that work best for you.

I admit, Leliana would be a good example for all the "sinners" (thought Zevran would probably make things more fun but oh well... Maybe we'll be able to appoint him on Tevinter's Divine throne ? Probably not the best idea yeah but still fun to think about). Probably even the perfect example of how you can rise above your sins and become "The Most Holy". Yet, her idea is to let the mages "loose" no more circle except maybe for the dangerous mages. Allowing mages to be part of the Chantry. So in decades to come it is possible that a mage, juste like Vivienne could became the Divine and... Well not sure things would be better or worse.

After such a volatile situation as the mage rebellion, to appoint a mage as divine is quite the statement that mages are to have freedom and more liberties. At the same time it is sure to see lots of people rebelling. A few decades later ? Well with blood magic being possible I doubt anyone could ever trust a mage in a position of power because they could have corrupted the minds of the people around them. Still it is possible the rebellion wouldn't be as bloody as it will undoubtly be under Vivienne's reign.

You make a good point about Cassandra. I was a little unfair to her because she does seek a safe way to undo tranquility. That is a big deal, but we don't know the exact ramifications of that. Seekers aren't mages, but we know they are immune, or deaf, to the "voice" of red lyrium. The way the game has described this, back to Cole, is Templars can't use magic because they are connected to something older. If you played the DLC Titans are that something older. Where blue lyrium we can guess comes from the 1 or maybe 2 good titans there must be a second or third titan who is the source of this corruption. However, I know very little about these Titans perhaps there is more lore out there that I'm missing, but it is this connection, to my understanding, that blocks their connection with the fade, or dreaming world, so that they can't use magic. Seekers have a connection to the fade they severed it and then restored it by summoning a "spirit of faith" to touch their mind. Does this connect them to something beyond the fade? Perhaps it connects them to the very Maker and that's why they can't hear red lyrium, perhaps this connection would make it impossible for mages to be possessed. If this is the case then there would be no need for the traditional circles. Personally I think leaving Cassandra to rebuild the seekers would allow her more freedom to pursue this safe cure to tranquility and in doing so would work with Divine Leliana to help the mages. Like with the harrowing where they are tested a different process would take place they'd be made tranquil and then be touched by this spirit of faith. Their magic now under their control and possibly changed would allow them to have more freedom with no fear of becoming an abomination. The Templars would still exist as a police force and emergency response team. 

As for the Grey Wardens, we still do not know for sure what the true source of the blight is. So long as the threat of the blight exists Grey Wardens are needed. Destroying them would be foolish with that threat looming overhead. It is possible that someone down the line could discover how to make Grey Wardens again, but for some reason they have kept it secret which could lead to the annihilation of much of Thedas before the secret is discovered again..if it is.

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@MadarasZore wrote:

1) Where blue lyrium we can guess comes from the 1 or maybe 2 good titans there must be a second or third titan who is the source of this corruption. However, I know very little about these Titans perhaps there is more lore out there that I'm missing, but it is this connection, to my understanding, that blocks their connection with the fade, or dreaming world, so that they can't use magic. 

2)Personally I think leaving Cassandra to rebuild the seekers would allow her more freedom to pursue this safe cure to tranquility and in doing so would work with Divine Leliana to help the mages. Like with the harrowing where they are tested a different process would take place they'd be made tranquil and then be touched by this spirit of faith. Their magic now under their control and possibly changed would allow them to have more freedom with no fear of becoming an abomination. The Templars would still exist as a police force and emergency response team. 

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These are two assumptions that aren't based off game lore, or in game info. 

1)  We don't know how Titan Blood, which is what Lyrium is, gets infected with the Blight.  It could be that a Titan is corrupted or it could be that the river of blood that is a Lyrium vein gets corrupted by Darkspawn.  We simply don't know, but assuming that a Titan is the source of of Red Lyrium is just that an assumption that by all accounts isn't based off anything in game.  Possible sure, but not really even hinted at, when discussion of Red Lyrium come up, even in the Decent DLC.

2)  This is making the assumption that being an abomination is the only thing to fear from mages.  I think you can look at tale of Tevinter and see that Magic is power and those with more power are just as likely to do good as evil...sometimes even more likely since usually only not so great people seek power and control.  Most really good people don't really want loads of power, or aren't willing to make the sacrifices to gain it with respect to magic.  So yeah, the mages would be free from becoming abominations, but it would still leave open the door to many abuses that end badly.  Most people see abominations as secondary to just the power aspect...meaning yeah turning into an abomination is bad, but so is a mage getting ticked off and burning a town to the ground too.  The treatment of mages could be opened up some due to this process, but I doubt it would change a whole lot nor make much difference in people's view of mages.  Tevinter makes this point in spades.

To your points

1)  We don't know how Titan Blood, which is what Lyrium is, gets infected with the Blight.  It could be that a Titan is corrupted or it could be that the river of blood that is a Lyrium vein gets corrupted by Darkspawn.  We simply don't know, but assuming that a Titan is the source of of Red Lyrium is just that an assumption that by all accounts isn't based off anything in game.  Possible sure, but not really even hinted at, when discussion of Red Lyrium come up, even in the Decent DLC.

What I'm making is an hypothesis based on the information from the game. It's a theory and nothing more. We know for a fact that in this world there are titans. Beings of immense size that may as well be gods in this world that can shape this world at will. We know that Lyrium "sings" and in the decent DLC we find out that the song from the titan is information or communication from the titan. If one considers the caves in the DLC to be the body of the titan and lyrium veins like blood veins, then it is reasonable to conclude that its children are a form of white blood cells or antibodies as well protecting the body from threats. If the titan we're traveling through in the decent DLC were under the assumption blighted then we could assume that the whole structure would be blighted. Now the "heart" in the center of the titan further alludes to lyrium being akin to the blood of the titan. Though it seems that its physiology does work very differently than organic beings. With this information one can extrapolate that there is more than one titan. Now you are correct that this other titan may be blighted, but what if there is more to it than that? No one knows the true source of the blight however we have just learned that the titans, or one of them at least, created the dwarves. What if a titan is also making the darkspawn? What if there is a titan that IS the source of the blight? I can't say any of this is true. It's simply a theory based on the evidence we've been provided.

2)  This is making the assumption that being an abomination is the only thing to fear from mages.  I think you can look at tale of Tevinter and see that Magic is power and those with more power are just as likely to do good as evil...sometimes even more likely since usually only not so great people seek power and control.  Most really good people don't really want loads of power, or aren't willing to make the sacrifices to gain it with respect to magic.  So yeah, the mages would be free from becoming abominations, but it would still leave open the door to many abuses that end badly.  Most people see abominations as secondary to just the power aspect...meaning yeah turning into an abomination is bad, but so is a mage getting ticked off and burning a town to the ground too.  The treatment of mages could be opened up some due to this process, but I doubt it would change a whole lot nor make much difference in people's view of mages.  Tevinter makes this point in spades.

I have not made that assumption. If you read my first post you'll see that I stated that mages have power and that power is something to be feared. That said people aren't ridiculously afraid of mages in any of the games. The biggest fear from them and for them has been the fear of demonic possession. Any mage abusing his power or group of mages abusing their power would be dealt with. This is even mentioned in the game by Vivienne. Mages are simply outnumbered too significantly. So long as they don't hold political power the scales are for the most part balanced and peaceful, and I believe symbiotic, co-existence can be maintained.

1)  Hmm, except for all the lore on how the Darkspawn came about, and all the lore and even meeting one ancient that was there, by all story info.  Solas also supports much of the learned lore about darkspawn and accuracy of the tales of men and elves.  So, no I doubt there is a Titan that created the Blight and Darkspawn.  There MAY be a blighted Titan, but I even doubt this, as I don't see the blight as something that could overwhelm a Titan, maybe infect the "blood" left behind, but not overwhelm one if for no other reason that it would then respond to the call every darkspawn does and likely destroy Thedas entire.  There is much we don't kown about Titans and what the can and cannot do, but I see them more as demi-gods or minor gods and maybe even Gods such as the Allmaker hiding from the intrusion of men into the Ancient Golden City....I just hope Bioware does something with them and their lore instead of dropping them forever after.  Will be interesting to see what direction they take if they continue with them at all.

2)  You I think missed several references to people fearing mages for just pure magic then....and also Tevinter.  You also assume that a group of highly powerful individuals wouldn't want to get into politics, either in the open or behind the scenes.  You also assume that mages would be handled quickly....when they aren't bound in Towers and have blood trackers available....it would take many more hunters to make this possible, and if you look at the current war raging between the mages and Chantry to see this an easy fight for either side.  Yes, mages are outnumbered, but if you remember from DAO, they wanted mages on the front line because one mage can replace hundreds of regular fighters using standard magic.  So, taking all these items, I think it is an assumption at current conditions that people would accept mages among them and it would be a balanced harmony.  What is the answer, no clue, but looking at real world interactions and how bad people look to gain power, having one of those be a mage is not something that sits comfortably....and I am one who roleplayed freeing the mages for the most part. 

I'll leave your point number 1 without retort because your points are fair, but just like mine it's not definitive and I agree I really hope they expound more upon the titans and source of the darkspawn. 

However, point number 

2)  You I think missed several references to people fearing mages for just pure magic then....and also Tevinter.  You also assume that a group of highly powerful individuals wouldn't want to get into politics, either in the open or behind the scenes.  You also assume that mages would be handled quickly....when they aren't bound in Towers and have blood trackers available....it would take many more hunters to make this possible, and if you look at the current war raging between the mages and Chantry to see this an easy fight for either side.  Yes, mages are outnumbered, but if you remember from DAO, they wanted mages on the front line because one mage can replace hundreds of regular fighters using standard magic.  So, taking all these items, I think it is an assumption at current conditions that people would accept mages among them and it would be a balanced harmony.  What is the answer, no clue, but looking at real world interactions and how bad people look to gain power, having one of those be a mage is not something that sits comfortably....and I am one who roleplayed freeing the mages for the most part. 

I haven't assumed that mages wouldn't want to get into politics. Vivienne is proof that some do. Tevinter is also proof that some would given the chance.  As I stated that's why I didn't want Vivienne as Divine you can't give mages political power. You haven't mentioned any of these references of people fearing mages because of their pure power. They do exist I know because one of the characters, I forget who, stated at least this much "the mages reminded people that one rouge mage can blow up a city like in kirkwall" paraphrased. However, while it has been a long time since I played the previous dragon age games I do recall mages themselves being terrified of possession. In inquisition this is also a deeply held fear of Vivienne. Many of the Templars have also expressed their fears of mages becoming possessed. The fear over their power is something people can overcome. As an example when you first go the the crossroads in the hinterlands a soldier is injured and Mother Giselle is comforting them and a mage wants to heal him. He believes that magic is evil, however she assures him that magic is no more evil than his blade. The Chantry line "Magic must serve man, not rule over him" this is a good motto in regards to magic. Most of Thedas know this line and while it is interpreted differently it is known that Andraste did not create the circles. Nor did she suggest they should be created. The creation of them was an interpretation of that line. Though it is the belief of many that these circles are little more than prisons.  With the right message not only might the fear of magic without the risk of mages becoming an abomination be assuaged, but magic could really serve man as the Maker intended.

If we were to try and relate this to the real world. Mages would be gun owners and Non-mages would be knife holders. If 10% of your population were gun holders they could all be killed by the knife holders were they to try and go to war. However, gun owners can also protect good knife holders from the bad knife holders or from the occasional bad gun owner. Now clearly magic is far more versatile than guns to the analogy falls apart on the political side and the helping/serving side is more limited as well, but it's the best comparison I can think of at the moment.