Well Made Decisions

Leliana has the right heart and the right idea about the Chantry I agree with you on that. Plus Faith is a big part of who she is it is what saved her in the past after all. I tried all three as divines and I honestly don't know wich one is the best. I guess it depends on many many things like how you want the world to evolve. I don't like Vivienne as a Divine, not exactly because of the risk of Thedas following the path of Tevinter or because the mages would get too much power because if you played the previous games you know that in Ferelden and the Free Marches, mages have absolutly no political power they are put in a tower to spend their life. That is the heart of the rebellion, being constantly watched, to see their liberties taken away little bit by little bit because "Magic must serve man and not rule over it" and they must not be a threat (don't get me wrong in all games we can see how bad things can get when mages turn to blood magic and it's not pretty). I mean, the only mages we know through the previous games with political power are the Warden if you choose to play mage (appointing kings is quite the political statement) and even then it is more because the Warden is a Grey Warden and it is a necessity at the time than because of the mage thing. And then you can have Hawke in case you play a mage again... Yeah sure, Hawke does have a lot of political influence but is it because of the mage thing or because Hawke's the only one to get their hands dirty to fix things in the city where they live ?

For me Vivienne is not a good Divine because she does only think about gaining more power for herself, the mages and finally of Thedas and the Chantry. Her priority are not the ones you want for someone in a place of power (she is way too much like our actual politician honeyed words and not doing a dam thing to make things better).

Then you have Cassandra... Yeah she does not have any political skill and honestly she'll probably dream about the face of many people she sees meeting her shield... multiple times. But at the same time and unlike Vivienne or Leliana she does not exactly wants the power and the responsability of being a Divine, she did not even considers it before hearing she is considered as being next in line (we can argue about Leliana but she does not say if memory serves right that she did not see herself as Divine, simply not as a worthy successor for Justinia). She always wants to do what is right, when she learns about her order being corrupted, she does her best to help them and make things right. She helps Cullen with his Lyrium addiction. Sure she is not a political genius like Vivienne or Leliana but she has led by example her whole life. This cannot be said of Leliana.

And you have Leliana, with a sweet view of how the Chantry should be, of how the Maker is watching over everyone no matter who they are. Leliana who has faith in the Maker and in so many things. Leliana who believes with her whole heart. And yes she is some kind of political genius, she was a child when she started playing the Game after all. And yet, Leliana can be misguided, she led a life as a bard, did "many despicable things". She was branded a traitor in Orlaïs, it was not true yes, but the accusation was there. Leliana who depending on the Warden and later the Inquisitor influence can be extremely hardened... or softened. Leliana who has been a tool most of her life and is looking for someone to wash away her sins. So as much as I love the view Leliana has on the Chantry I don't actually think she would make a good choice especially since hardened she can become as much a tyran as Vivienne will be. Yes, leading by example is a great idea, but is she really the right choice ? Did you side the mages ? See how Leliana becomes ?

I will agree with you that this is a well made RPG with some very complex choices. The big problem being no matter who you side with you will probably barely see any change in the next Dragon Age. You decision have some consequence on the short term but you will probably not see a new war needing to be quelled in order to have more people to take against The Big Bad Guy just depending on who is Divine. Ever you will have that war to stop with all three of the Divine or... no war at all.

Thank you for your response! I loved reading what you had to say, for the record in my primary playthroughs I always go mage and have done so in every game. I think you are a little too hard on Vivienne. Grant it I rarely have her in my party, but I do try to keep Cole around. He sees into people's hearts and what he had to say about her I thought was very revealing. Apparently she almost became possessed during her harrowing. This terrified her, and since Cole has stated he can only see into someone's mind who he can help I think it is safe to say the experience scarred her. Because of this she sought power to be in as much control of her life and her fate as much as possible. Also because of this she understood the importance of the circles, but she believed they could be improved upon and that mages need more political power. You are right the mages have never had political power outside of Tevinter and that the circles are too much like prisons instilling too much fear into mages. This is why I couldn't agree with Cassandra philosophically. While she wanted to implement reforms to bring the Chantry's heart back to where it should be, like any idealist, this wouldn't change the mage situation at all and any success she made would be undone slowly, but surely within a few decades of her leaving. Even were she politically savvy. In essence as much as I love the girl, and in spite of the fact that they will hardly be reflected in the next game realistically, having her as divine would in essence be electing the status quo. I would be fine with Vivienne becoming divine if it weren't for her idea of giving mages an actual political voice. If you listen to Dorian you'd understand why in the Imperium you do not "have" to be a mage to be a magister, however all magisters are mages. All magisters are against blood magic, but almost all magisters practice blood magic to get ahead. 

A basic truth of humanity that can't be understated and I believe is truly very well depicted in the dragon age stories. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Being a mage means you have power more power than any average non-mage heck my group of adventurers in my recent playthrough were cut down to ribbons by one mage equal in level to the 4 of them and these were season veteran non-mages the mage took down and he wasn't the only one in his party. That's a good example of the sort of power difference i'm talking about. A single combat encounter for my party, but when thought about it in the game universe you can understand why people would be afraid and that's no even diving into mind controlling blood magic. Give them political power and things might go well for a few years, but eventually not so noble mages will seek that power, get that power, and then change things little by little until you no longer have equal political voices, but instead the mage voice being the only one that matters. IE you have the Tevinter Imperium. 

Mages do need more freedom, they do however need to be excluded from positions of power.

So this is why I ultimately came to the conclusion that Cassandra and Vivienne were unfit. 

You are right that Leliana has not lived a perfect life. She has done bad things and if you soften her bad things that she regrets deeply. She was overwhelmed by the magnitude of the tasks before her and it is not difficult to understand why. It's the oft asked question "do the ends justify the means" and that is always a fair question. When you meet her she does believe that, however you can influence her to see that the ends don't justify the means. The the steps taken to reach your goal is a path you leave for others to follow. 

It is this question that made it difficult to decide if she should be hardened or not. Hardened she could more easily achieve her goals (again regardless of any actual change we may see in the next game) however at that point her path has been laid no matter how much you try to hide it there will be people who see it and follow it kill a person here because they quoted a Chantry verse wrong kill a fella there because he's seducing a chantry priest. All in the name of the good, but in the end it's more evil. 

This is why I decided to soften her and thanks to the Mother's words. That the maker wanted them to lead by example and she was right. 

As flawed as she is and perhaps even because she is flawed Leliana is the best at leading by example. Because she was on the wrong path, she was shown that and decided to go a different way. She was redeemed and showed mercy to the traitor and to her Sister these events are not insignificant they're a part of her story and as the divine her story is magnified.

That all said my core point is this. Not if I am right or wrong, but just that the decisions that we had to make were well made. The story and history of the world is well made and that these things and discussions were considered by the writers shows a genuine passion and care. Not only in the world, but in knowledge of our real world history, religion, and philosophy. It shows an understanding of human nature that many game writers completely throw out the window either out of ignorance or expediency. It is because of how much the writers have shown in their understanding of our world that they are able to craft such complexity into this world and I find that beautiful.

I love giving my opinion and hearing (or in this case reading) about other people thoughts so you're quite welcome and thank you for giving me the opportunity to express myself and to have taken the time to answer.

I admit, I never took both Vivienne and Cole on the same party, mostly because I don't take Cole with me that much. So I'll probably give it a try on my next playthrough to see and hear for myself what happens and what Cole has to say about... well basically everyone. I do agree with her about the fact that Circles can and should be improved, after all, we discover while talking with Wynne how the Circle can be a refuge as much as it is a prison for a lot of mages. To allow mages to have a voice and be heard whenever there is trouble with templars I'd agree but she takes it too far in my opinion. As I said, I appointed each of them as a Divine and so far Vivienne has what I consider the worst outcome.

I didn't see Cassandra as choosing the statu quo but you probably are right on that one. Thought it also depends on her successor as to how fast anything she does would be undone. Plus I don't remember Cassandra only wanting a reform of the Chantry, as a Seeker she did know a lot about how far Templars could go and she also wanted to seek a cure for the Tranquil if I remember correctly. So it would not exactly be Status Quo but close enough I guess. And yes anything she succeed in establishing would most likely be undone quite fast unless she has someone sharing her view succeeding her. And even then would things keep going on the right direction or start going backward in time. If there is one thing I do reflect on anytime I play DA (or ME) it is how things seems to circle over and over again. It just kind of escalates in Dragon Age, plus maybe we are supposed to appoint Vivienne as a mage so history would repeat itself and we'd get full circle with some kind of Andraste figure stepping up to stop the madness going on... Or Qunari would step in and subject everyone to the Qun.. Though this one will probably happen at some point in time or another.

I find Dragon Age to be a mirror of our reality, if you look closely (or even not so closely) you'll find the perfect mirror for the Chantry in our world. You'll also find people looking down at other because of their race and so on. This game has a full subtext so rich I'm pretty sure I only brushed the surface whenever I saw some similarity and it is part of what makes the game so great. We think about our choices and how it will affect those close to us (XXX approves or disapproves), then to those around us, what we are fighting for what that particular choice would mean for the future of whatever we want to achieve. And then we start to think long term. Like is it a good idea to basically destroy the Grey Wardens ? Or should I sacrifice this character or this one ? (Still not over that choice I'll admit). And even then you start questionning choices made in the previous game (The Dark Ritual, Belhen vs Harrowmont, Who to appoint on Ferelden's throne). For me that's what makes the games such good games, you have to reflect on your choices and you have virtually endless hours of game in front of you just so you'll find the best combination of actions. Or the ones that work best for you.

I admit, Leliana would be a good example for all the "sinners" (thought Zevran would probably make things more fun but oh well... Maybe we'll be able to appoint him on Tevinter's Divine throne ? Probably not the best idea yeah but still fun to think about). Probably even the perfect example of how you can rise above your sins and become "The Most Holy". Yet, her idea is to let the mages "loose" no more circle except maybe for the dangerous mages. Allowing mages to be part of the Chantry. So in decades to come it is possible that a mage, juste like Vivienne could became the Divine and... Well not sure things would be better or worse.

After such a volatile situation as the mage rebellion, to appoint a mage as divine is quite the statement that mages are to have freedom and more liberties. At the same time it is sure to see lots of people rebelling. A few decades later ? Well with blood magic being possible I doubt anyone could ever trust a mage in a position of power because they could have corrupted the minds of the people around them. Still it is possible the rebellion wouldn't be as bloody as it will undoubtly be under Vivienne's reign.

You make a good point about Cassandra. I was a little unfair to her because she does seek a safe way to undo tranquility. That is a big deal, but we don't know the exact ramifications of that. Seekers aren't mages, but we know they are immune, or deaf, to the "voice" of red lyrium. The way the game has described this, back to Cole, is Templars can't use magic because they are connected to something older. If you played the DLC Titans are that something older. Where blue lyrium we can guess comes from the 1 or maybe 2 good titans there must be a second or third titan who is the source of this corruption. However, I know very little about these Titans perhaps there is more lore out there that I'm missing, but it is this connection, to my understanding, that blocks their connection with the fade, or dreaming world, so that they can't use magic. Seekers have a connection to the fade they severed it and then restored it by summoning a "spirit of faith" to touch their mind. Does this connect them to something beyond the fade? Perhaps it connects them to the very Maker and that's why they can't hear red lyrium, perhaps this connection would make it impossible for mages to be possessed. If this is the case then there would be no need for the traditional circles. Personally I think leaving Cassandra to rebuild the seekers would allow her more freedom to pursue this safe cure to tranquility and in doing so would work with Divine Leliana to help the mages. Like with the harrowing where they are tested a different process would take place they'd be made tranquil and then be touched by this spirit of faith. Their magic now under their control and possibly changed would allow them to have more freedom with no fear of becoming an abomination. The Templars would still exist as a police force and emergency response team. 

As for the Grey Wardens, we still do not know for sure what the true source of the blight is. So long as the threat of the blight exists Grey Wardens are needed. Destroying them would be foolish with that threat looming overhead. It is possible that someone down the line could discover how to make Grey Wardens again, but for some reason they have kept it secret which could lead to the annihilation of much of Thedas before the secret is discovered again..if it is.

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@MadarasZore wrote:

1) Where blue lyrium we can guess comes from the 1 or maybe 2 good titans there must be a second or third titan who is the source of this corruption. However, I know very little about these Titans perhaps there is more lore out there that I'm missing, but it is this connection, to my understanding, that blocks their connection with the fade, or dreaming world, so that they can't use magic. 

2)Personally I think leaving Cassandra to rebuild the seekers would allow her more freedom to pursue this safe cure to tranquility and in doing so would work with Divine Leliana to help the mages. Like with the harrowing where they are tested a different process would take place they'd be made tranquil and then be touched by this spirit of faith. Their magic now under their control and possibly changed would allow them to have more freedom with no fear of becoming an abomination. The Templars would still exist as a police force and emergency response team. 

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These are two assumptions that aren't based off game lore, or in game info. 

1)  We don't know how Titan Blood, which is what Lyrium is, gets infected with the Blight.  It could be that a Titan is corrupted or it could be that the river of blood that is a Lyrium vein gets corrupted by Darkspawn.  We simply don't know, but assuming that a Titan is the source of of Red Lyrium is just that an assumption that by all accounts isn't based off anything in game.  Possible sure, but not really even hinted at, when discussion of Red Lyrium come up, even in the Decent DLC.

2)  This is making the assumption that being an abomination is the only thing to fear from mages.  I think you can look at tale of Tevinter and see that Magic is power and those with more power are just as likely to do good as evil...sometimes even more likely since usually only not so great people seek power and control.  Most really good people don't really want loads of power, or aren't willing to make the sacrifices to gain it with respect to magic.  So yeah, the mages would be free from becoming abominations, but it would still leave open the door to many abuses that end badly.  Most people see abominations as secondary to just the power aspect...meaning yeah turning into an abomination is bad, but so is a mage getting ticked off and burning a town to the ground too.  The treatment of mages could be opened up some due to this process, but I doubt it would change a whole lot nor make much difference in people's view of mages.  Tevinter makes this point in spades.

To your points

1)  We don't know how Titan Blood, which is what Lyrium is, gets infected with the Blight.  It could be that a Titan is corrupted or it could be that the river of blood that is a Lyrium vein gets corrupted by Darkspawn.  We simply don't know, but assuming that a Titan is the source of of Red Lyrium is just that an assumption that by all accounts isn't based off anything in game.  Possible sure, but not really even hinted at, when discussion of Red Lyrium come up, even in the Decent DLC.

What I'm making is an hypothesis based on the information from the game. It's a theory and nothing more. We know for a fact that in this world there are titans. Beings of immense size that may as well be gods in this world that can shape this world at will. We know that Lyrium "sings" and in the decent DLC we find out that the song from the titan is information or communication from the titan. If one considers the caves in the DLC to be the body of the titan and lyrium veins like blood veins, then it is reasonable to conclude that its children are a form of white blood cells or antibodies as well protecting the body from threats. If the titan we're traveling through in the decent DLC were under the assumption blighted then we could assume that the whole structure would be blighted. Now the "heart" in the center of the titan further alludes to lyrium being akin to the blood of the titan. Though it seems that its physiology does work very differently than organic beings. With this information one can extrapolate that there is more than one titan. Now you are correct that this other titan may be blighted, but what if there is more to it than that? No one knows the true source of the blight however we have just learned that the titans, or one of them at least, created the dwarves. What if a titan is also making the darkspawn? What if there is a titan that IS the source of the blight? I can't say any of this is true. It's simply a theory based on the evidence we've been provided.

2)  This is making the assumption that being an abomination is the only thing to fear from mages.  I think you can look at tale of Tevinter and see that Magic is power and those with more power are just as likely to do good as evil...sometimes even more likely since usually only not so great people seek power and control.  Most really good people don't really want loads of power, or aren't willing to make the sacrifices to gain it with respect to magic.  So yeah, the mages would be free from becoming abominations, but it would still leave open the door to many abuses that end badly.  Most people see abominations as secondary to just the power aspect...meaning yeah turning into an abomination is bad, but so is a mage getting ticked off and burning a town to the ground too.  The treatment of mages could be opened up some due to this process, but I doubt it would change a whole lot nor make much difference in people's view of mages.  Tevinter makes this point in spades.

I have not made that assumption. If you read my first post you'll see that I stated that mages have power and that power is something to be feared. That said people aren't ridiculously afraid of mages in any of the games. The biggest fear from them and for them has been the fear of demonic possession. Any mage abusing his power or group of mages abusing their power would be dealt with. This is even mentioned in the game by Vivienne. Mages are simply outnumbered too significantly. So long as they don't hold political power the scales are for the most part balanced and peaceful, and I believe symbiotic, co-existence can be maintained.

1)  Hmm, except for all the lore on how the Darkspawn came about, and all the lore and even meeting one ancient that was there, by all story info.  Solas also supports much of the learned lore about darkspawn and accuracy of the tales of men and elves.  So, no I doubt there is a Titan that created the Blight and Darkspawn.  There MAY be a blighted Titan, but I even doubt this, as I don't see the blight as something that could overwhelm a Titan, maybe infect the "blood" left behind, but not overwhelm one if for no other reason that it would then respond to the call every darkspawn does and likely destroy Thedas entire.  There is much we don't kown about Titans and what the can and cannot do, but I see them more as demi-gods or minor gods and maybe even Gods such as the Allmaker hiding from the intrusion of men into the Ancient Golden City....I just hope Bioware does something with them and their lore instead of dropping them forever after.  Will be interesting to see what direction they take if they continue with them at all.

2)  You I think missed several references to people fearing mages for just pure magic then....and also Tevinter.  You also assume that a group of highly powerful individuals wouldn't want to get into politics, either in the open or behind the scenes.  You also assume that mages would be handled quickly....when they aren't bound in Towers and have blood trackers available....it would take many more hunters to make this possible, and if you look at the current war raging between the mages and Chantry to see this an easy fight for either side.  Yes, mages are outnumbered, but if you remember from DAO, they wanted mages on the front line because one mage can replace hundreds of regular fighters using standard magic.  So, taking all these items, I think it is an assumption at current conditions that people would accept mages among them and it would be a balanced harmony.  What is the answer, no clue, but looking at real world interactions and how bad people look to gain power, having one of those be a mage is not something that sits comfortably....and I am one who roleplayed freeing the mages for the most part. 

I'll leave your point number 1 without retort because your points are fair, but just like mine it's not definitive and I agree I really hope they expound more upon the titans and source of the darkspawn. 

However, point number 

2)  You I think missed several references to people fearing mages for just pure magic then....and also Tevinter.  You also assume that a group of highly powerful individuals wouldn't want to get into politics, either in the open or behind the scenes.  You also assume that mages would be handled quickly....when they aren't bound in Towers and have blood trackers available....it would take many more hunters to make this possible, and if you look at the current war raging between the mages and Chantry to see this an easy fight for either side.  Yes, mages are outnumbered, but if you remember from DAO, they wanted mages on the front line because one mage can replace hundreds of regular fighters using standard magic.  So, taking all these items, I think it is an assumption at current conditions that people would accept mages among them and it would be a balanced harmony.  What is the answer, no clue, but looking at real world interactions and how bad people look to gain power, having one of those be a mage is not something that sits comfortably....and I am one who roleplayed freeing the mages for the most part. 

I haven't assumed that mages wouldn't want to get into politics. Vivienne is proof that some do. Tevinter is also proof that some would given the chance.  As I stated that's why I didn't want Vivienne as Divine you can't give mages political power. You haven't mentioned any of these references of people fearing mages because of their pure power. They do exist I know because one of the characters, I forget who, stated at least this much "the mages reminded people that one rouge mage can blow up a city like in kirkwall" paraphrased. However, while it has been a long time since I played the previous dragon age games I do recall mages themselves being terrified of possession. In inquisition this is also a deeply held fear of Vivienne. Many of the Templars have also expressed their fears of mages becoming possessed. The fear over their power is something people can overcome. As an example when you first go the the crossroads in the hinterlands a soldier is injured and Mother Giselle is comforting them and a mage wants to heal him. He believes that magic is evil, however she assures him that magic is no more evil than his blade. The Chantry line "Magic must serve man, not rule over him" this is a good motto in regards to magic. Most of Thedas know this line and while it is interpreted differently it is known that Andraste did not create the circles. Nor did she suggest they should be created. The creation of them was an interpretation of that line. Though it is the belief of many that these circles are little more than prisons.  With the right message not only might the fear of magic without the risk of mages becoming an abomination be assuaged, but magic could really serve man as the Maker intended.

If we were to try and relate this to the real world. Mages would be gun owners and Non-mages would be knife holders. If 10% of your population were gun holders they could all be killed by the knife holders were they to try and go to war. However, gun owners can also protect good knife holders from the bad knife holders or from the occasional bad gun owner. Now clearly magic is far more versatile than guns to the analogy falls apart on the political side and the helping/serving side is more limited as well, but it's the best comparison I can think of at the moment.