Please can assists be looked at…Like nuked into oblivion, I understand that assists are their to help all play, but when racing multiplayer should a person on full assists be quicker than a person on zero assists, their is absolutely zero incentive to get off the assists because they keep getting faster whilst medium & full traction users get quicker it’s so bad & frustrating when a non assist user has taken the time to learn, to enjoy league racing to have all that had work annihilated by a full TC user just flying past out of corners takes the fun out of the game then knowing that you’ve not got a chance against Assisted Users especially online

With F1 being a simcade and with the way the competitive scene is laid out, it's to no one's surprise that discussions like this miss the mark so often.@RVladimiro and @catchygaaaa, thank you for being sound and reasonable 👍Let's break it down:Excellent driver: Rarely, if ever, overshoots their inputs. Brakes to the full capabilities of the car on any given scenario and is quick on the modulation when they sense the wheels locking up. Throttle application is on point, getting on the gas on the proper exit point as to reach wide open throttle - WOT quickly. If they ever miss it, they're quick to react and feather it just enough for the rear end to bite again or the grip to increase and enable WOT. Jarno on a good day? Let's put it like this.Good player: Plays with no assists and hit good lap times. Is competitive in leagues and has good standings on TT boards. Obviously not every lap is perfect and they're bound to pick up an off-track here and there, but when they nail it, they nail it. Only uses those "good", proper esports setups of LLRR or RRLL or LRRR or RLRR or whatever the meta is these days.Average player: Reasonable times with no assists, but they're not winning any open championships. Have fun on leagues. Feels energized whenever they break into top 20% of the TT leaderboards. When they feel pressed, they fall back on to ABS and TC on medium because why not? That podium is just right there... Also copies whatever LLRR setups they can get a hold of.Casual player: Loves My Team, loves Career. Plays most of the time with assists on, but can venture into no-assist territory when they feel like being precise, but are not as skillful or not inclined to give it the time to become precise with their old man/casual fingers. Don't dab with online much, too much carnage and too much unpleasantness on the lobbies that the matchmaking lock them into.Sticking with Jarno, back when F1 22 came out he was a guest on the Traxion's podcast. He mentioned how the recently released F1 game made strides into being more realistic, punishing players for going arcadely ham on kerbs and the like, but lamented how it still wasn't enough to do away with the infamous esports line. We've all heard about it. Jarno lamented that, and though I do not follow him as closely as some of you do I'm positive he did not change his mind.Now there's being a fast driver, and there's being good at exploiting what this simcade faulty simulation of reality enables you to get away with. Attacking a kerb like it's no one's business, getting on with bottoming out without much care in the world. And above all, getting away with unreasonable RRLL et al setups as the game does not punish you for running with unrealistic suspension geometry and stiffness.Just this week we had @DavidGG53 giving his general guidance on everything setup related. Lengthy post where he gives a ballpark to set up every single parameter in that setup screen, always accompanied by a justification of what they choose to do so. And yet no mention of a "RRLL" or min this, max that. The reason being, and I'm pretty confident @RVladimiro, @catchygaaaa and others with a penchant for motorsports plus the experience of ever having used a h-shifter on their life, is that those unrealistic extreme values add instability to the ride. It just so happens that you can get away with it on this simcade rendition of motor racing, specially if you're an excellent driver or a good player (list above). Now the latter will sometimes eat dirt for their ballsy moves or their lapse in focus, that's the toll the game collects for running with an extreme setup, but so what?That said, have the good and average players ever given a reasonable setup a fair go? Back in the day of the original Codemasters Forum and, what, F1 2020 or F1 2021, I made a lengthy post myself with telemetry data showing how if you were to set a good amount of toe in on the rear axle there was no difference in straight line acceleration and top speed (tested on Monza), and the added stability in and out of corners made it so much easier to brake and apply throttle. It was just free stability, all pluses with no drawbacks.And yet, RRLL everywhere.Jarno again and many other esports players often put out the infamous "does assist make you faster?" sort of video. Please bear in mind that these are made for entertainment, engagement and views on their channels, and the methodology varies from "oh that's actually reasonable" to non-existent, so they're not all worth the same. I'm particularly fond of Jarno's, and I always remember this one. His results:In the video he explains why ABS made him 0.1 slower but why he felt he could have been 0.1 faster.Now how much faster assists make you?To tie it all up:Excellent driver: Won't gain any time using assists.Good player: May gain some time using assists compared to the laps they greatly overshoot their inputs, but more often than not will only make them slower. Wish they could give a fair setup a go and check if their overall laptimes over the distance wouldn't get better 😉Average player: Compared to themselves running without assists? Of course they will gain time! If even their good laps are 2-4% apart from each other, it is only logical that they will get more consistent hence closer to their performance ceiling with assists correcting their eventual grotesquely off the mark inputs. And again, my suspicion is that their overall laptimes would get better if they have a reasonable setup a go 😉Casual player: Same, but to a larger degree.I find it deeply contradictory that the "good" and even the "average" players of the bullet list above so often demand that assists get nerfed to oblivion but do not give a hoot about RRLL setups being usable. They get vexed with average players nibbling close with assists on, when they should truly care about unreasonably unstable cars driving on unrealistic lines getting away from them.Just my two (lengthy) cents. People wouldn't feel the need to nerf assists that often if the game wasn't so simcadey.

@Jafmasterflash7 I have to completely agree with what you’re saying here. A full Assist being reward, only like 2 or 3 tenths of people without assists. It really needs sorting.

Will never happen in a mainstream F1 licensed SimCade. As it relies on sales. Vast majority of people who buy the game play for fun. A few hours here and there using a controller. They don’t have the time to put the effort into Gitting Gud. and especially don’t want to pay hundreds out buying a sim setup, which Is needed to Git Gud enough to be comfortable enough to race online without assists. If you want to race others who take the time and spend the money to Git Gud there are plenty off hardcore sims to choose from.This game is designed to be a SimCade that is accessible to kids and beginners and casual F1 fans The guys that are really good at this game don’t complain about players using assists

I've got to agree with what has been said here, the risk/reward from running lower assist just isn't worth it for how full tc is.They aren't feeling the slip of tyres, can just floor it through every corner and don't feel tyre wear like other assists do. It needs to be nerfed to stop then taking advantage of this!

@catchygaaaa Yep, your braking and braking bias experience aligns just right with what we had discussed on the beta programme. I had 56% as a baseline and adjusted from there.Greco expects to see a range of 53-58% being used.Hopefully this model sticks and doesn't need to be hacked back to what we ended up getting with post-release F1 22.When I told you to call out the user or users on their behavior, it wasn't to pick up a fight. A good number of people can and will drop their shenanigans once their bad attitude is singled out.If the thread derails, mods (real ones, not regular users with silly badges 🙃) will simply lock the whole thread to everyone's loss.As Ultra pointed out, the discussion is benefitial.I may come around to doing just that sometime in the near future, but for those interested there are a set of parameters to test how much assists interfere with player inputs. Just hook your session to a telemetry app or service for starters.To test straight line acceleration and braking, I used to go to Monza and align the car on the outside white line on the S/F straight, just when the DRS sensor would indicate 0m to the activation line.Automatic transmission on to exclude you mistiming your shifting could help.Then bang on throttle all the way to whatever reliable braking marker you want to use, then bang on the brakes. Two laps for each set of assists you want to rest (only TC, only ABS, no assists, TC+ABS, etc) and just check rate of acceleration (or how steep the speed trace gets) both on throttle and on braking.On braking, one should also consider taking note of how long it takes to go from 200kph or so to 80kph, and from 200kph to a full stop, as it is when the downforce decreases with the square of the car's speed that locking up becomes a real threat.Numbers may seem small, but on live scenarios assists tend to interfere way more. There should be zero to negligible body roll on that test whereas on track you'll always have an unequal load distribution across all four corners of the car, with an overall grip deficit given how grip and load are not exactly linear, so ABS and TC will cut in way sooner, way harder and way longer.

NERFING assists | EA Forums

76 Replies

catchygaaaa
3 years ago
@RVladimiro Lol, don't worry I'm no spring chicken myself.. I have however given up on the hope of racing irl so invested into what I would suggest is an above average rig and setup.
I'm 100% same, bought my boy a rig last year and he's killing it, massively quicker than me already. That's the age thing I know, plus the lack of family and career to be able to practice daily. I don't expect to compete with that level of dedication.

Come on thou mate, that's a defeatist attitude, I don't believe you, (in a banter joking way only!)
When you miss that apex or go deep, you can't say you don't growl at yourself internally and on the next lap try to improve.
That's why everyone personally races don't they? Instead of just watching? The joy of getting better, nailing something to the best of your own personal ability and earning the endorphin effect.

The point overall though you do say, you don't try to compete with others. Fine, 100% totally fine, you can adjust the AI to suit your pace and continue to enjoy this game. The nerf of the TC and ABS will make zero difference to you as a casual..

If anyone thinks TC isn't over powered, watch Esports 2021 champion and overall F1 game legend Jarno Opmeer's, f1 22 reach master rank YT.
The man is literally the best in the world, defo in the best 20 for arguments sake.
He's getting done (only) in traction zones out of corners by the general population..........
ScarDuck14
Legend
3 years ago
@RVladimiro Exactly this! Majority of people that play F1 games just want a bit of fun for a few hours a week for a few months. Then they get bored and move onto something else.

They don’t care about having incentives to Git Gud. As for most people games are about having fun. Pretending to be a F1 driver behind the wheel of a F1 car is very appealing fun.

Those who take this game seriously and want it to be like real life are a tiny minority of the player base.

I put in over 700 hours in every F1 game and I’m quite happy using a controller and having fun playing a SimCade.

If I wanted something more sim I’d be putting hours into a proper sim. But for the price of a sim rig. You could go and get an amateur racing license a cheap second hand car. Strip out all the weight. Spend abit on suspension and brakes. Bucket seat with harness and a roll cage. Because no sim comes close to actual racing even if you’re just racing karts.
RVladimiro
3 years ago
@catchygaaaa oh but I don't mind it being nerfed really. I'm fine with that actually. I don't think I should be competitive online and can imagine that brake lock assists can make you faster... so... maybe nerf it! I was just addressing that the assists aren't just a carrot for people to get better and ditch them later but rather an integral part of the experience for people like me. I've tried many times to drop assists, in fact I'm hoping I can drop TC and brake lock assists this version because the handling is so much better. However it isn't to be faster but rather to be more enjoyable. However, I don't have the time or desire to learn the tracks properly and drop racing line or auto transmission. The investment is way too high to be enjoyable to me.

To put it in the simplest forms: I play the game, not to improve but to be entertained and I use the assists that allow me to be entertained. I'm the pinnacle of the casual player and since I don't make anyone else unhappy with my decisions, there's nothing wrong with that. 🙂
ScarDuck14
Legend
3 years ago
@catchygaaaa And Jarno doesn’t care if general population beat him using assists. They are not his competition. If you watch Jarnos videos and obviously you do the only time he takes the game seriously is when he’s racing other e-sport elites.
RVladimiro
3 years ago
@ScarDuck14 I think there's another issue here. Maybe I'm out of line because it's not really something I know or understand well but I feel that there's some elitism from people that don't use assists and they expect to beat every single person that does. What if they are still improving and not as good as they think they are? What if the fact that they are being beaten by people with assists isn't a problem with the assists?

I'm not saying that it isn't, e.g. I think brake locking assist is very likely to give you a couple of cents in slow corners but I can't imagine things like TC being a big issue from what I can observe from the couple of people I follow on YT, namely Jarno who just powers into the distance in traction zones.

So maybe they are not Jarno level and they are being beaten in traction zones by people with TC assist... is that really a problem of TC assist? If that is true then the moment I turn off TC assist I should be by default a lot faster and I'm not.
catchygaaaa
3 years ago
@ScarDuck14

The point is being missed repeatedly here, but I'm enjoying the discussion massively.

RV puts it so eloquently above

The casual racer won't notice a nerf, doesn't need to be massive either, just a little stuttering of throttle input when using TC just like a real car cuts fuel input when TC kicks in being over zealous on a wet road..
A casual won't see it and if they do, they'll adjust AI to suit to continue enjoying the game
catchygaaaa
3 years ago
@ScarDuck14 Yes I could sell my rig, get a real car.
But I'm married with a highly demanding career.
My rig has been bought over many years.
It doesn't need fuel or tyres and starts without issue everytime I turn it over.
I play in race overalls (pyjamas) with my wife bringing me a cuppa mid race on a Tuesday night in corner of my living room. 2/3hrs and I've been to any corner of the world and raced against like minded individuals.

Yes it is a simcade, but what's the harm in that, f1 is my sport I enjoy.

All that has been asked, is the TC and ABS is nerfed a lil to take away the unfairness in multiplayer.

Casuals can continue to enjoy the game with lil noticeable difference, non in offline mode.

Casuals online will continue to be matched with other Casuals online, the same nerf for all.

Other like me who enjoy this game to compete with others will be rewarded for spending more time on the game to better themselves.

OFC jarno don't care btw! Why would he, but do you really think generals should be quicker out of a corner than him?
ScarDuck14
Legend
3 years ago
@catchygaaaaSo they won’t notice a nerf and in turn being destroyed by the Git Gud Elitists isn’t the way to in sensitise anyone to play the game. The game only gets developed by selling copies to casual gamers. As it’s a game that is F1 specific. Means it will only appeal mostly to F1 fans. F1 fans will by the game as a casual bit off fun to race around tracks and in cars they follow on tv. Other AAA racing games like GT7 and Forza have content that appeals to anyone who likes driving fast,

Only way F1 games sell is by making it accessible to as many people as possible. Which means keeping the skill gap down and limit the amount of setup options. Compared to proper racing sims. The setup options in this game are tiny compared to racing sims, that’s by design to not over complicate things for the average gamer.

So it’s a case of accepting people you race against in this will be using assists and will on occasion beat you. And if they do what does it matter 🤷🏻‍♂️.

Or accepting this game is just a game and you would be happier racing
against like minded people in a proper
Sim.

EA and Codemasters know if they increase the skill gap by nerfing assists will mean less people buying and playing the game and spending money on cosmetics. So do you think they will nerf assists to make the minority of elitists happy? Or more likely to buff them to keep more playing?
ScarDuck14
Legend
3 years ago
@catchygaaaa No it doesn’t matter if a casual gamer beats Jarno out off a corner, Seriously it’s a game for fun. Jarno doesn’t care because he’s not an elitist. He plays in open lobbies for fun. Not because he needs to validate how good he is. Half the time he plays in no rules lobbies. Because it doesn’t matter if you win or not,

If winning really matters to you and it obviously does instead of joining in open lobbies racing against kids who don’t even know what or where a apex is, join a league there’s plenty to good leagues to choose from. But then you’ll be up against racers with genuine skills and won’t be able to blame assists when you lose
catchygaaaa
3 years ago
@ScarDuck14 Very well put 👏🏻
I see, understand and agree. What you say does make complete commercial sense in the short term mostly/ish

As you state though, the casuals are in the majority, elitist minority.

In general matchmaking, you are as it states matched to equivalents.

The casuals will never see the elitists online, but should EA convert a casual into a more elite, they will have space to grow within the matchmaking system.
Plus if they do get bitten by the f1 elitist bug, they have converted another casual into a fan like myself who has bought the game every year for 10ish years, who also has a son bitten and ends up buying 2x champ editions for £160...

Oh I'm humble in my racing btw, a have no issue in losing lol. My last 5-6 league races on 22 I placed p16 highest. I just wish and I can tell this is falling on deaf ears but will say it again, wish it was a lil more fair..

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