@mariohomoh@Meza994 Gentlemen, this was not my intention when I posted those comments to elicit conversation. I have huge respect for the both of you (as I do others on this board) as you both give your time to break down plenty of concepts and theories to non-technical folk like myself. I'm sure others appreciate it and have learnt plenty of things reading your respective posts. As much as you both have differing understandings and ideas, you're both really sound.
@TotosHeadphones absolutely zero reasons to apologize, mate. The arguing that ensued is entirely on us and our own inability to keep it wholly inside the clear boundaries of the technical stuff.
You didn't trigger anything. And if civil discussions over these aspects of the sport were not to sprout here from time to time, I'd be long gone.
@mariohomoh@Meza994 @ It's all good, it just shows that you guys have a keen passion and love for the sport and all the fascinating things behind that make the car go vroom vroom. Neither of you don't stop imparting knowledge on ameoabae like myself
@TotosHeadphonesIt can be daunting if you just stumble upon it by chance, but both F1 Technical communities are solid if you have even a basic understanding of vehicle dynamics - as I well know you do.
I'm not talking about the nerdy gritty opaque stuff, just the things you'd naturally pick up if you were into karting or had driving for a hobby or a living.
The forums per se (F1Technical.net) have kind of two sections. One for the pro stuff, and one for those just following the sport.
Obviously the users will mingle, but the "pro" sections are mainly populated by those with a degree in engineering and can break down the ins and outs of a, say, McPherson suspension just by looking at a heavily pixelated picture of a 1980s car wreck 😂 Or those that can just easily plug geometry data into their faculty's PC and get a CFD simulation of a F1 component on the spot. That can be overwhelming, but also quite insightful. Those are the posts you'll sometimes catch teams on the pit wall having it open on their monitors and chatting about, or Sam Collins frequently referring to - as in "as noticed by the users on F1 technical..." and the like.
The general section have threads for each teams too, and general F1 season threads. It's lovely, as the pros (people working in the industry or studying it, literally "pros", don't take me as being snobby 🙃) get to hang around there as well and go over the stuff in a more digestible manner.
Mind you, fans will be fans and there's no corner of the internet devoid of conspiracy lovers and fanatics.
And there's the Reddit community, /r/f1technical Not as rich nor as popular, but it's got a neat feature of verified users having a tag next to their username. Like a verified F1 aerodynamicist, verified F1 engineer, verified F1 mechanic and the like.T hat verification is carried on by the mod team on the background.
You'll very, very often catch people like Scarbs 💕 himself posting there on the regular. It's truly lovely!
Did you go on to buy Newey's book? I've got a few books on my Calibre library. There are the technical oriented ones, there are books I haven't read more than 10 pages because c'mon I can't math with my head that way 😂 But there's also a few books that play to that same tune of "know how braking on an incline feels on your nuts?! Yeah, that's because..." approachability.
I do find myself throwing charts and technical jargon around here often, always on the assumption that anyone could follow what I'm saying, and there's no need to elaborate on how that can spark some controversy around here 😅 Well, there's a reason I can't write a book like that, so it's nice to have those knowledgeable authors around. I'm always happy to share.
@mariohomoh Just so you know the speeds i used for the simple maths are taken from the F1 app.. and are exactly the same data that you get/showed i just dont feel the need to post a whole chart when i read them off the official telemetry 🙂
I often dont read your long posts fully so dont bother give another try for what you feel is needed and you are mistaken if you correlate RPM directly to ERS deployment as you already said, RPM is linked to wheel speed, this can be achieved by many different scenarios though not only ERS deployment - especially when they go at drastically different speeds.
I dont know why you take things out of context all the time.. 33 kph delta needs context for any meaning, i didnt say that the 33 kph delta was wrong but wrong that it would be RBs DRS delta as there is no big variety of DRS delta, either they have slipstream, more power etc. but what they gain from DRS in terms of drag reduction will stay mostly the same and not make up 33 kph, thats what i was only saying that the drag reduction alone without any slipstream or special energy deployment wont be 33 kph.. In special occasions of course with slipstream etc. there will be such a top speed delta but its not the effectivity of DRS alone then.
We wont get on the same page as i feel the same about you and your choice of words as you do about me, i tried to let it go and be peaceful with you but you always kept going back to a down putting/disrespectful tone which im just no fan of. If you feel like you have to talk like that its on you, i wont waste my time with it anymore.. Just so you know, directly translated to my first language you would come off as a totally arrogant * with basically any of your latest replies to me, you say you were the nice guy, might be linguistic or something subliminal but i dont wanna bother anymore with it, especially when i feel we are talking past each other most of the time like you say there was a moment when the RB was 33 kph faster than the Merc and i say that wasnt solely due to having DRS and a big discussions comes from it although both will be correct. I dont need that in my life so i wont argue anymore with you, people can make up their minds on everything for themselfes.
@TotosHeadphones All good buddy, we know that none of it is your fault so dont feel responsible 🙂
I often dont read your long posts fully so dont bother give another try for what you feel is needed and you are mistaken if you correlate RPM directly to ERS deployment as you already said, RPM is linked to wheel speed, this can be achieved by many different scenarios though not only ERS deployment - especially when they go at drastically different speeds.
Here is what I said:
(Stating the obvious just to make it clear: RPM and wheel speed are linked. For any given RPM at a given gear, the wheels are necessarily going at a certain speed. If a regular car going full beans starts dropping RPM, there's something slowing it down – drag increasing so that the energy output has a greater resisting force to overcome, loss of grip... something. F1 cars are hybrids though so there's the electric power components to take into account. Hence my pointing out the speed and RPM traces dropping even while the throttle remains wide open).
Breaking it down:
Engine and wheels are a closed loop. It goes like engine > crankshaft > clutch > drive shaft > gearbox > differential+final drive > axles > wheel hub > wheel. Unless the clutch is engaged (breaking that loop for the duration), for any given speed that the wheels go, the ICE will necessarily be at a given RPM on any given gear. So if the car is in 8th gear going 160kph, no matter the throttle level or the ERS SOC or the fuel load or whatever, the engine will be revving @ 7800RPM. Now if it is going at 160kph in 4th gear, no matter what, the ICE will necessarily be at 10.090RPM.
Key phrase here: no matter what. So even if you were to strap a rocket to the engine cover and fire it, when the car reaches 160kph in 6th gear the engine will still be at 10090RPM. If the driver had the 8th engaged already, when the car hits 160kph it would be at 7800RPM. Nomatterwhat
Why? Again: It's a loop. It's a closed system. The only component capable of breaking that loop is the clutch, as it disconnects the engine from the drive shaft – so the wheels can spin independently of the engine speed, and the engine can rev independently of the wheel speed.
What factors positively influence a F1 car speed? Engine power and ERS deployment (MGU-K). If you still have that rocket strapped to your car, please detach it to carry on with the exercise 🙃. What factors negatively impact a F1 car speed? Well, they're numerous and go from air resistance/drag to grip and so on. Weight does negatively impact on acceleration, but not on top speed by the way 😉 – as in if you had a infinitely long strip do keep the pedal down, eventually a F1 car at 790kg and the same car fully loaded with gas and a chubby driver to say 1000kg would still eventually reach the same top speed.
Back on the scenario of post #478, I showed and said that when HAM hit his 298kph top speed, his wheel speed and engine speed (RPM) started dropping even while keeping it at 100% throttle.
That means that the car is slowing down. If the throttle demand exactly the same (100%), what could be playing a role at that? Different air to fuel mix? Hardly. Increased air resistance? Could be. Sudden loss of grip, as in the tyres getting past their optimal working range? Could be, as with less grip you cannot put down the same amount of energy coming from the PU if it exceeds your grip budget. ERS? Could be.
Can you make a case for a significant difference in drag?
Can you make a case for a significant change in grip?
Can you make a case for ERS deployment? Perhaps derating (here's Mercedes explaining what it is, again, if you're not familiar with it), or decreased MGU-K output given their ERS map, or disengaging Overtake mode?
If you can reasonably assume that 4.1 and 4.2 are not playing that big of a role, with HAM leading on a high speed section with no backmarkers in front, see how one can infer the ERS working just by knowing the wheel speed, engine RPM and throttle demand?
Let me know if you get that, if you need more context or if you'll keep on disagreeing.
i didnt say that the 33 kph delta was wrong...
Reference for context: "A true delta of 33 kph is just wrong"
but wrong that it would be RBs DRS delta as there is no big variety of DRS delta, either they have slipstream, more power etc. but what they gain from DRS in terms of drag reduction will stay mostly the same and not make up 33 kph, thats what i was only saying that the drag reduction alone without any slipstream or special energy deployment wont be 33 kph.. In special occasions of course with slipstream etc. there will be such a top speed delta but its not the effectivity of DRS alone then.
On what relevant race context you'll have DRS without slipstreaming? That would be just FP or Quali with no traffic, right?
Where do you see DRS effectiveness being discussed with proper disregard to slipstreaming? Have you ever seen in the media or in interviews or on race analysys or whatever pundits going over DRS effectiveness but readily dissecting it "oh this much is the DRS working and this much we can safely disregard as being only tow"?
I can think of one: in the videogame. There you'll have neatly arranged variables across neatly arranged tables in not-so-neatly laid out strings with easily readable integers and floats and whatever, and its limited representation of racing physics.
I can open my F1 22 data on my notepad too. Would it be relevant when discussing the sport? Nah 🙃
Not taking a dig at you. Just taking a long stroll to say this: your differentiation is pointless.
Even more so when the whole point of the effervescence and enthusiasm over these small or not-so-small gains that Red Bull have been making in this world class sport of fine, fine margins is how it integrates the DRS flap with their rear wing design with their beam wing design with their rear suspension with their diffuser design with their underfloor design with their sidepods... all the way to their front suspension beautifully holding on to keep the car from porpoising under those loads.
But you want to stubbornly grasp at straws here and offer a bold take on what constitutes "true DRS delta", and what is slipstreaming or a bazillion other factors? Like oh no, you can't say this steak is tasteful because you need to take the seasoning out, the cooking out, and look just as the meat and then you'll see that it is just plain meat 🙈
Verstappen got a DRS delta of 33kph on Hamilton in Jeddah. It got a DRS delta of 36kph on Hamilton in Australia. Those will be computed on their averages and it already shows. That's it 😉
Take a look at this chart again:
Take both RB's averages out of the dataset. What average DRS effectiveness for the field do you get, my brother in Christ? Hint: way, way, waaaay lower.
You'll have to make an effort to actually read it all this time. Otherwise I feel the only sensible thing would be to refrain from commenting – specially if you don't want to be hypocrite of complaining about context while making it a point of not caring about context 🙂
@mariohomoh I actually head over to Reddit F1 technical site every few days. I have seen Scarbs post quite a few times and enjoy it there. It's still accessible as the explanations are understandable. I will take a look at the other suggested site, a good lurking session will do no harm. By the by, I really like Sam Collins, I think he's underutilised by Sky but they're more about the entertainment. And shout out to Albert Fabrega, the science teacher I always wanted.
I didn't get Newey's book in the end. My wife complains that I'm too difficult to buy gifts for so I'll let her get it for me when she's struggling for birthday gift ideas 😅
@mariohomohI wont try any argument with you when you leave out the biggest factor in car speed - Is it a significant difference in drag when one car has slipstream and DRS open? Yes, quite so, allowing e.g. Ferraris in 2021 getting up to 356kph around Silverstone 🙂
I wont even start arguing against comparing RPM in that situation with any other situation with wind, quali slightest slipstream etc. thanks.
Besides doing the math on the average for DRS without both RBs is 16.7 in contrast to 17.2.. Really huge difference 🙂
Dont bother with trying again, i dont care about you holding on to straws like the Australia delta was 36 kph when Hamilton was 10 kph faster just a second before taking that moment. I couldnt care less about you thinking im talking nonesense at this point especially when you value Ferrari engineers so highly after there blunders the past years.
I wish you no bad but i will ignore you from here on cause there is nothing to gain from someone showing in the data there was a 26 kph delta and insisting on it being 36 kph delta.
@mariohomohI wont try any argument with you when you leave out the biggest factor in car speed - Is it a significant difference in drag when one car has slipstream and DRS open?
You forgot to detach the rocket 🚀, my sunbeam?!
😱
I even italicized it, now in bold: factors that positively impact on speed. As in, work by increasing the speed.
Drag impacts negatively, it is right there in both posts 😉
Aero components and slipstreaming don't make the car go faster, they just reduce drag - as in, they make a negative factor lesser.
And if a car going at top speed, full throttle, with the engine revving at 12000RPM in 8th gear, were to find a god blessed pocket of slipstream, guess what? Its RPM would increase in tandem with its speed.
Hopefully though you've got your main problem solved and figured out how you can indeed see the ERS working by knowing car speed, throttle trace and RPM. Will hardly ever be able to give an exact, discrete value to it and know how much of acceleration or deceleration is due to the MGU-K, but there it is 😉
When going through that same spot on the track (telemetry has distance on the "x" axis, not time), Verstappen was at 322kph. With an allegedly detuned PU 🥲.
He would still go to hit 325kph on that strip. That's 27kphdelta from their respective top speeds.
The moment he overtook Hamilton though the delta was 36kph (VER 324kph against HAM's 288kph)
🫂
Edit: F1 Data Analysis on Twitter this morning:
Clipped text: "Avoid clipping (decrease in top speed at the end of the straight due to the empty battery🪫)"
@TotosHeadphones Sam Collins and Scarbs in F1 Tech Show is always a joy to watch and greatly underutilized, indeed. It's a shame F1 don't publish their content on Youtube more regularly.
I have this backlog of their videos on F1 TV, but only give them a shot when... There are alternative video players capable of variable playback speeds available, let's put it this way haha If I'm on mobile and have to suffer through their Android app, it's usually a pass.
@ScarDuck14 Yeah it is a real shame with china being cancelled. Personally i never liked the track… maybe the fact i suck at it on the games has influenced that 😂
@ScarDuck14I love the track apart from that stupid hairpin. But I hate hairpin turns in general 😜 That's why I love Baku, it doesn't have one though it has that stupid Castle section.
@ScarDuck14 Drivers probably enjoy their little break given the fact they have more and more races in a season (which is good to us 🙂 ). Personally i can't wait to see Ferrari upgrades and how the car will perform compared to AM and RB. But i don't have high hopes for Baku, probably RB wins if nothing happens like and accident to take them out or a SC right after they pit 🙂
@P4st3l1akIt’s about the only hairpin I like. Although I do have a tendency to try extreme dive bombs into it… That I more often than not find myself reaching for the flashback button 🙄
Off topic
Also want to thank those of you who were here for your support yesterday by xping in thread or replying it ment a lot. Legends!!!
@P4st3l1akIt’s about the only hairpin I like. Although I do have a tendency to try extreme dive bombs into it… That I more often than not find myself reaching for the flashback button 🙄
Off topic
Also want to thank those of you who were here for your support yesterday by xping in thread or replying it ment a lot. Legends!!!
Pleasure is all ours. We are a civilised community here. Not like the FIFA hooligans 😂
