So this is quite often discussed in a league that I'm in.......Wheel v PadSo, in theory a wheel should be faster than a pad, it should also be easier than a pad yet I know numerous people on a pad who are so fast it's almost frustrating, their traction seems to be so overpowered. I understand it's a skill and I understand the game needs to cater for all users, however is the pad too OP in your opinion? can it be reduced at all for F1 2022 as I know people who own a wheel yet won't even use it as a pad is easier, therefore making them faster which just doesn't make sense.Assists v No AssistsThis debate is also often discussed in our league, and users who race with all assists off get frustrated when someone with ABS and Traction on Medium fly past them in the rain, or pull out better times in qualy when all they're doing is keeping their foot planted on the pedal (or finger on the trigger) so it got me thinking, is there a way or a plan to reward users with Assists off over users who have them on in F1 2022, so skill is more rewarded basically? I feel this stops people from improving when they just leave them on and they're instantly fast, appears to be little skill in this.What do we all think? Would be good to hear from Admin/Testers on this.

@Ultrasonic_77 wrote:Regarding ABS my strong bet is that Jarno Opmeer could have been faster using it than not if he adapted his driving style to take advantage of it. This wouldn't to me make ABS OP but rather realistic. Could be, and this intersects with what @Nuvolarix is saying. If instead of working like a race car ABS the F1 electronic assist were more akin to a road car ABS, it would engage much earlier so players wouldn't be able to keep their performance just at the limit of grip as easily. Or make it so that it relieves even more braking pressure, so if you overstep the grip limit enough to engage the ABS it would lengthen the braking distance even more.We've had this discussion a handful of times in the OG forums. I'm of the same opinion as always:The "assists are overpowered" is usually baseless. People come up with irrelevant scenarios that do not support this conclusion or misconstrues how these assists do/should work;Never ever seen evidence of TC being overpowered. Usually it is uninspired players with no TC comparing themselves with uninspired players with TC on. Surely the latter have a better chance of performing better and that's as intended;ABS could maybe use some rework just to keep it on par with TC in efficiency...... But I really don't care that much. Better filters to enforce assist use, discrete leaderboards for non-assisted scores and we'll be in a much better place without needing to mess with the game code.

I've played every F1 game on controller as well as a bunch of other racing sims (rF1, rF2, GTR2, AMS1, AMS2, Race 07, R3E, AC, ACC, etc), imo controller support sucks in newer F1 games. There's built-in controller filters & dampers that cannot be turned off, those filters limit how much one can steer and cause input lag and make cars more difficult to drive; those filters might be OK for casuals that use tap steer and assists but they're nightmare for advanced users who use precision steering, no assists, and want to have full control of the car. In older F1 games such as F1 2012/2013 there was an option called "steering wheel override" that got rid of all the filters & dampers and enabled raw input, and then I could fine tune controller settings from there and have full control of the car. Imo CM should put back that option in newer F1 games, that would make the game way more fun to play for advanced players who use precision steering and all assists off.

@GregStarz Ok thats not too bad but for both no assists and wheel usage its a different set of skills. Its proven that the only assist that can give you an advantage when driving at your best is ABS. But if you make mistakes you will obviously loseout over assist users. Same with Pad vs Wheel, you got much more precision with a wheel but if you dont utilize this to its full potential a pad can still outperform you and it should be like that.If you ask for a further nerf of TC, Pad and such this would lead to pad users with TC on unable to fight more than 100 AI even if they would be competing with esports drivers on a wheel without assists. Its a very delicate balance and every player has a different driving style, some might get favoured by a strong ABS, some might not gain at all because they are already braking like if they had no ABS. Some are very used to the way the throttle gets applied on a pad but dont have a feel for wheel/pedals. Point is its really depending on the player how good what is, best example IMO are Opmeers test videos, he is setting a base laptime (with very little to no practice time) and then does laps with assists turned on and he never improved, only got fairly close with ABS on in 2021. If ABS was as OP in basis he would improve but he already brakes almost perfectly so there is almost nothing to gain. However with players than dont play at such high level - even 105 is not comparable to Esports accuracy - ABS makes a bigger difference as you will make more mini mistakes/not do it perfectly every time so ABS can actually keep you closer to perfect.Its never gonna be perfectly balanced as depending on your personal skills and driving style everything has a different impact on your laptimes

I'm a seasoned non-assist pad league racer and imo, they've already nerfed the traction to the point where it's no longer an advantage over wheel drivers. In fact, I believe it's harder to race effectively on a pad and be in any way competitive.Case in point:On 2021, my traction was laughable. Off the start I had the ability to go from P6 to P1/2... just off the line. Obviously this gave me excellent performance out of corners and I made use of it. I earned wins and nearly 2 league titles with it.In the wet it made me a damn GOD compared to the rest of the grid.On the current game however, I no longer have that advantage. In fact it's taken me damn near the whole game cycle to get equal starts with those around me.In my opinion, the wheel has the all around advantage now... on everything.Better steering, no soft-lock when going through chicanes, better traction, better tyre usage, better physics when attacking curbs.For me the issue is steering. I like to think I'm as smooth as I can be with my steering, but I AM limited by it.I've been arguing the point for years that the pad settings need an overhaul.Let the casuals have their steering assists, dampeners and whatnot... but let ME choose how I want my steering to behave and stop dampening it for me. Give me an override.

@Meza994 wrote:If you ask for a further nerf of TC, Pad and such this would lead to pad users with TC on unable to fight more than 100 AI...Why would this be any sort of problem?I always get torn with discussions like this. I drive without assists as I like the challenge and the feeling I'm having as much impact on what happens as I can, but I'm sure I could be quicker it I turned TC and ABS on. So I fully understand the appeal of giving more of an advantage to those driving without assists but equally it would be artificial if this were the case.

Wheel v Pad & Assists v No Assists

20 Replies

Meza994
Seasoned Ace
4 years ago
@GregStarz Just a quick question, what difficulty are you leagues on? Like what AI difficulty would you choose for a good fight against the AI?
GregStarz
4 years ago

Both very competitive, 105 AI I use for GP practice sessions
Meza994
Seasoned Ace
4 years ago
@GregStarz Ok thats not too bad but for both no assists and wheel usage its a different set of skills. Its proven that the only assist that can give you an advantage when driving at your best is ABS. But if you make mistakes you will obviously loseout over assist users. Same with Pad vs Wheel, you got much more precision with a wheel but if you dont utilize this to its full potential a pad can still outperform you and it should be like that.

If you ask for a further nerf of TC, Pad and such this would lead to pad users with TC on unable to fight more than 100 AI even if they would be competing with esports drivers on a wheel without assists. Its a very delicate balance and every player has a different driving style, some might get favoured by a strong ABS, some might not gain at all because they are already braking like if they had no ABS. Some are very used to the way the throttle gets applied on a pad but dont have a feel for wheel/pedals. Point is its really depending on the player how good what is, best example IMO are Opmeers test videos, he is setting a base laptime (with very little to no practice time) and then does laps with assists turned on and he never improved, only got fairly close with ABS on in 2021. If ABS was as OP in basis he would improve but he already brakes almost perfectly so there is almost nothing to gain. However with players than dont play at such high level - even 105 is not comparable to Esports accuracy - ABS makes a bigger difference as you will make more mini mistakes/not do it perfectly every time so ABS can actually keep you closer to perfect.

Its never gonna be perfectly balanced as depending on your personal skills and driving style everything has a different impact on your laptimes
Ultrasonic_77
Hero
4 years ago
@Meza994 wrote:

If you ask for a further nerf of TC, Pad and such this would lead to pad users with TC on unable to fight more than 100 AI...
Why would this be any sort of problem?
I always get torn with discussions like this. I drive without assists as I like the challenge and the feeling I'm having as much impact on what happens as I can, but I'm sure I could be quicker it I turned TC and ABS on. So I fully understand the appeal of giving more of an advantage to those driving without assists but equally it would be artificial if this were the case.
Meza994
Seasoned Ace
4 years ago
@Ultrasonic_77 So the first problem is that the AI is better at higher difficulties, so makes less stupid mistakes (crashing into you on purpose) and better balanced performance over the season.

The second problem is its artificially slowing people down, even if someone drives perfect and doesnt utilize the effect of TC/ABS it would cost them laptime - otherwise a nerf wouldnt work because with perfect inputs it would still be the fastest possible.. Especially for offline players like myself who just want to enjoy racing and not be all the time 100% concentrated forced lower difficulty or forced No Assists would suck..

I can see the reason for online play but there is just no good balance. Some drivers that were equalling no assist players while using assists might be far behind then or not be affected at all, its just a tough "fix"
mariohomoh
Hero (Retired)
4 years ago
@Meza994 wrote:
The second problem is its artificially slowing people down, even if someone drives perfect and doesnt utilize the effect of TC/ABS it would cost them laptime - otherwise a nerf wouldnt work because with perfect inputs it would still be the fastest possible..
We've got games doing electronic aids better. Doesn't need to be "artificial", just have better hooks to work with. F1 22 having more data points for the load vs tyre grip dataset is a good opportunity to work on this.
Work demand goes up, grip allows it
Work nears limit of grip, grip still allows it
Work exceeds grip a bit, you feel the wheelspin increasing or the tyres rumbling under braking but can still carry on
Work decisively exceeds grip, wheelspin makes the rear step out or you get total wheel lock up under braking.
Total grip (or capacity for work) decreases between 2 and 3 and falls significantly between 3 and 4. A good driver with said perfect inputs would know to ease off when in stage 3.
This is simplifying things a bit, but you'll generally always get something along those lines.
The general perception is that TC and ABS work "too well" in the game. A great player would know to keep the car below 3 and when it touches stage 4, the cut in power or brake pressure is relatively modest. Best of all worlds, can push to the ceiling and not be that harshly penalized when engaging the electronic aids.
With more "conservative" electronics, like those in Gran Turismo or when you crank up TC and ABS to high settings in ACC, the aids' intervention cuts the input so much that the (generally oblivious) driver gets set back to stage 2. They leave performance on the table.
I love that Opmeer's video. Shows exactly that, electronics do not make a player good, it doesn't give you time or super traction or the like. He couldn't set a better time with any of the aids on. However, there's still room to make either the input cut more severe when going from 3 to 4 or make it so the aids engage earlier in stage 3. The latter would be more akin to the electronics fitted in a road car.
Either is fine by me. The misconstrued "electronics make you faster" is a fad I'm tired of already, they do not, but there's room to make TC and ABS less forgiving for those players with no sense for the threshold between 3 and 4. Could finally put the matter to rest.
The franchise finally having a tyre model with enough "resolution" in load sensitivity is a good opportunity to find tune these things.
SomaticCoast375
New Hotshot
4 years ago
@GregStarzWheel is quicker than pad. Also doing no assists on a wheel is much easier than doing no assists on pad. When talking to people on pad, the majority run at least one type of assist
ScarDuck14
Legend
4 years ago
Wheel is obviously better. If it wasn’t all race cars and road cars would use a stick to steer. 😃. Using a wheel is so much easier being precise when cornering. If you’ve also got flappy paddles on your wheel. That’ makes gear changes easier.

But one thing the pad does way better. Braking and accelerating. So much easier having triggers especially if your using a dual sense pad. Especially for braking. Right finger obviously for power. But Left finger is always at the ready for what is in effect left foot braking. This game rewards those who know how and when to trail brake. Finesse is key and finger has more than foot. Unless your a ballet dancer and the like
Meza994
Seasoned Ace
4 years ago
@mariohomoh Obviously there is room, didnt deny it, all im saying is that finding the perfect balance where nobody complains - its too much, its too little, pad is too hard, pad is op - is impossible for Codemasters, but again adjustments are possible and for ABS needed (based on 2021), dont see it for TC though, Opmeer was 0.5s slower in his tests, seems fair to me.

But yes especially now they got the chance.. Opmeer will likely put out another of his videos so we will see if things have changed then
Ultrasonic_77
Hero
4 years ago
@Meza994 wrote:
@Ultrasonic_77So the first problem is that the AI is better at higher difficulties, so makes less stupid mistakes (crashing into you on purpose) and better balanced performance over the season.

If this were true I could understand your perspective but honestly I think it's hard to be sure whether it is or not. Relative performance of player and AI will be a big contributor too.
Regarding online I think particularly ranked should make a distinction for no assist drivers, either by placing a rank ceiling for drivers with assists, or having a separate 'no assists' section and ranking system.
I'd also really like to see filters on time-trial leaderboards to be able to show only no-assist times, or of course a separate no-assists leaderboard but that seems less likely.
I think changes like these would reduce arguments for their 'needing' to be artificial performance limits imposed when using assists.