@mcsupersport wrote:
I will be honest....I wouldn't have given the idea the time of day, that they would intentionally make female characters not as pretty, EXCEPT for one simple fact. They obviously based Scott Ryder off his male voice actor....no it isn't perfect and yeah, he still has some funny quirks due to the AI facial controls, but he is CLOSE. Then you take Sara Ryder, and you look at her, then go find a picture of her voice actress.....NOT EVEN CLOSE.
They're supposedly based on the models (Steven Brewis and Jayde Rossi), not on the voice actors (Tom Taylorson and Fryda Wolff). (Edit: Posted above. I took so long to type this that I missed the previous reply.)
Many of BioWare's characters are modeled after someone and it's spot on (e.g. Shepard / Mark Vanderloo, Liara / Jillian Murray, Illusive Man / Jon Briddell). In more rare occasions, they look nothing like the model at all (Leliana / Alleykatze). (Tip: Don't google Alleykatze at work with the safe search off.)
My theory is that they prioritized Scott Ryder's appearance because more players pick male protagonists when given the choice, and because he was featured in earlier game demos. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't base Sara on any model at all and only claimed she was based on one so that there couldn't be claims that the two default appearances weren't treated equally (like in Mass Effect 1 and 2). To go back to the example of Dragon Age: Alleykatze and Victorria Johnson (Morrigan) were used in promotional material (a news post and a cinematic trailer), but not in the game, so I suspect it's more of a marketing thing.
I honestly don't see anything wrong with default Sara's appearance other than the goofy facial animations. Same with Cora or Cassandra Penthagast, who received similar criticisms. Appearances are subjective, of course, but I think think the outrage is spectacularly overblown. If all the men in this game looked like Liam Hemsworth and all the women looked like the witches of Crookback Bog, then I'd believe it were intentional.
@mcsupersport wrote:
they actually made Sara look WORSE after the day one patch
I strongly disagree, but again, it's subjective.
@Fred_vdp wrote:My theory is that they prioritized Scott Ryder's appearance because more players pick male protagonists when given the choice, and because he was featured in earlier game demos. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't base Sara on any model at all and only claimed she was based on one so that there couldn't be claims that the two default appearances weren't treated equally (like in Mass Effect 1 and 2). To go back to the example of Dragon Age: Alleykatze and Victorria Johnson (Morrigan) were used in promotional material (a news post and a cinematic trailer), but not in the game, so I suspect it's more of a marketing thing.
I honestly don't see anything wrong with default Sara's appearance other than the goofy facial animations. Same with Cora or Cassandra Penthagast, who received similar criticisms. Appearances are subjective, of course, but I think think the outrage is spectacularly overblown. If all the men in this game looked like Liam Hemsworth and all the women looked like the witches of Crookback Bog, then I'd believe it were intentional.
Well, I did have in mind when i was writing the response you reference how default FemShep looked. She looked like a character generated pudding in the first two games, and in the third was dev created, based on fan voting, but to my knowledge not a face model, unless I missed that.
I tried her in one play through, and didn't like the results. Again, a collection of little issues that made her look not quite right in the game to me, and it looked weird. Some of the only images of her that I liked it turned out were fan art of default FemShep so good that BW made them available for download.
Of course, my custom FemShep, canon in all my games, became my standard and all others lack the same value to me. But that's my headcanon, and there was never a model-sourced FemShep default to compare her to. I also assumed that they spent more time and care on the target demographic appearance, which actually didn't bother me since I don't ever use the provided default and create my own. To my mind, they could save some money and skip the default actor-scanned appearances and I'd miss nothing. Players who want a fast start can hit random in the custom appearance screens a few times until they wind up with something not too bad and click Start.
I bypassed a lot of the online frenzy by not taking part in any pre-release speculation. My pre-Andromeda existence was so spoiler free that my buddies online would poke fun at me for it. I've muted people in Teamspeak for even hinting at dropping information. I saw nothing, and I mean nothing, of the game until the day it dropped, and that was by my choice. So I never got worked into a state by the various rumors making their way through the fan base - I just wanted to take the game on face value without all the freaking out in the online forums. When I came out of my Andromeda isolation the first thing I heard was that the animations were awful, and the female characters ugly-on-purpose. What I saw was a game that wasn't done cooking and could have spent another year in the oven.
I am not in the stereotyped industry target demographic. I've been a gamer a long time. Do I think the character creator lacked options? Yes, absolutely. Do I think it was because of SJW engineering? No. Do I think that the lack of it in previous games was due to chauvinistic, sexist or racist developers? No. I've played a great many games which lacked any real choice at all in character appearance, so yes, its hard for me to get excited (or even raise an eyebrow) on this topic without substantial reason to do so. I just haven't heard any.
I really don't know if it was a lack of skill, lack of time, lack of polish, SJW values, art direction, desire to appeal more to women, or just a bad game engine when dealing with faces, but the sad fact is MOST characters have a mediocre to odd appearance, to ME. Some make sense, others are just head scratchers...changes in Krogan faces and accents, watching the Alpha build of saving the Krogan colony ending, and then seeing the final release....Sara looking so different than her model, compared to Scott's looking close to his, ALL the Asari having same faces, lack of facial markings on Turians, Peebee raccoon swipe(reminded me of a DA2 reference), All these just made me wonder what happened.... We will probably never know as Bioware will not say, and EA closed the doors of the studio....so maybe that WAS explanation....lol.
Personally, Cassandra from DAI, is one of my favorite characters from that game. She is tough, good to have in the party, loved the story behind her, her soft spot for smutty romance, and after seeing her in game for a short while, I really liked the Face and model used. When playing a male Inquisitor, she is my romance character. The thing is, her facial scaring, and personality all match her story and character. You really shouldn't expect a front line character, who has fought dragons, templars, demons, and a whole host of other things to come out without some scars and the shorter hair means it fits under helms and can't be grabbed in a melee.
I think the biggest issue I have is, I can overlook some "marginal design choices" if the story and characters are good enough. I am not a fan of Sera's looks in DAI, but I like her character because she is interesting and different, but in MEA, they couldn't or didn't pull off the it's ok to be mediocre if you are interesting trick, for me at least. Liam, I wanted to air lock him, PeeBee was ok but looked too young I guess, and acted more like her father should have been a Salarian instead of a Elcor. Suvi was one of my favorites of the crew, along with the Dr Lexi, Vetra, Cora, Jaal and Drak....the rest I would have been happy to NOT be there or have radical changes.
Rewrites I would make.......
Liam....you meet him on the Nexus, he is supply officer..aka Vetra's job. You keep his loyalty mission, cause it makes sense that he was working the system and gave out data he shouldn't trying to finesse the system. You keep his actions to try and get you to scan the market and even trade with Jaal naked, these would then all fit his personality better and job description.
Vetra...oddity is she is on the Human vessel, BECAUSE Alec required it. While he wasn't a fan of non-humans, he saw the usefulness of Vetra when she saved him, and her background of Crisis response and security made her too good to pass up. As a favor to her to get her on board, her sister is brought along as part of a special patherfinder liason. After docking with Nexus, Vetra helps set up better security on the Nexus and her sister stays behind as a tech to help. Most of her loyalty mission can remain the same, with some dialog tweeks to make it work.
Swap the models and characters between Peebee and Lexi. Peebee then becomes the Dr. on board the ship...not sure she wants to be there, because she never planned on it, and not sure she wants the danger or upheaval. Lexi then becomes the smart researcher studying the Remenant, calm cool and collected. Lexi then becomes the love interest and takes over the science hall instead of Jaal.
ODD TANGENT----
What is Bioware trying to say about men in the game?? Take on these ideas and say "WHAT??"
1) Liam, straight love interest....basically an idiot and totally doesn't make sense based on his history or jobs.
2) Drak...Man's Man character..raised his grand-daughter, but is a relic of the past and will soon die.
3) Hark...krogan scientist, incredibly smart, but can't fight, isn't tough..aka would be called a wimp...gets the girl in the end, and is called the Future of Krogan.
4) Spender....human weasel...just a low life piece of self serving trash...
5) Number 8.....incompetent and while in charge isn't someone you trust.
6) Jaal...good fighter, smart, tough but always talking about feelings, opposite of Drak in he is fairly young and has a future.
7) Alec....ruthless, caring...DIES...
8) Gil...homosexual romance....smart, not a planner, effective in keeping the ship going.
Now look at the women....
8) Cora....male love interest....effective, trained, good looking, powerful, SHOULD have been pathfinder.
9) Lexi...smart, good looking, trained, educated, effective, doctor who keeps you all alive.
10) Vetra..smart, trained, effective, supplies trip and gets troubles out of your way.
11) Peebee...love interest....young, smartest in the room on Remanent, effective, powerful.
12) Kesh...smart, effective, tough, respected, keeps station alive.
13) Suvi....smart, absent minded but that is because of her extreme intelligence, educated, and effective as science officer.
So what patterns do you see, and what can you take from it???
Me, it seems like someone is trying to say something.....but you decide. HMMMMM???
Yeah I wasn't impressed with the Sara Ryder default especially since she was supposedly based on Jayde Rossi I couldn't quite understand how she ended up looking like she did. The goofiness is not just the animations but also that the face looks more cartoony than a real person.
There are modders who actually created faces that are quite pretty using the settings that exist but it's a lot of work to get it right. As much as I like character creation options, I tend to like to be done in 30 mins and not spend hours tweaking it. All the customizable options look weird or off in some way.
Now I am reminded of the other Frostbite game where characters also look very iffy called Dragon Age Inquisition...so I think it's a valid question to ask if this an engine issue or the result of Social Injustice Warrior influence. (Since they don't seem to look for justice but just swinging the pendulum to another group I cannot call them SJWs), but then I see what some people do that have the patience to play around for hours and I think, well, it's possible in Frostbite after all.
Then again, what we've seen from Anthem, which isn't that much yet, it seems that we won't really get to see our characters unless suited up in full coverage javelin mech suits. So that makes me wonder if that's their way of stepping away from character customization in Frostbite altogether.
I dunno. ME:A is what it is now. Clearly they are no longer going to put any effort into it. I can only hope that they revisit Mass Effect in the not to far future with either a reboot of the originals or something new again. I really am no longer interested in finding out what happens to Ryder next.
@mcsupersport wrote:What is Bioware trying to say about men in the game?? Take on these ideas and say "WHAT??"
1) Liam, straight love interest....basically an idiot and totally doesn't make sense based on his history or jobs.
2) Drak...Man's Man character..raised his grand-daughter, but is a relic of the past and will soon die.
3) Hark...krogan scientist, incredibly smart, but can't fight, isn't tough..aka would be called a wimp...gets the girl in the end, and is called the Future of Krogan.
4) Spender....human weasel...just a low life piece of self serving trash...
5) Number 8.....incompetent and while in charge isn't someone you trust.
6) Jaal...good fighter, smart, tough but always talking about feelings, opposite of Drak in he is fairly young and has a future.
7) Alec....ruthless, caring...DIES...
8) Gil...homosexual romance....smart, not a planner, effective in keeping the ship going.
Now look at the women....
8) Cora....male love interest....effective, trained, good looking, powerful, SHOULD have been pathfinder.
9) Lexi...smart, good looking, trained, educated, effective, doctor who keeps you all alive.
10) Vetra..smart, trained, effective, supplies trip and gets troubles out of your way.
11) Peebee...love interest....young, smartest in the room on Remanent, effective, powerful.
12) Kesh...smart, effective, tough, respected, keeps station alive.
13) Suvi....smart, absent minded but that is because of her extreme intelligence, educated, and effective as science officer.
So what patterns do you see, and what can you take from it???
Me, it seems like someone is trying to say something.....but you decide. HMMMMM???
Well, I decided that you picked and interpreted the things that you felt supported your theory, some of which didn't make any sense to me. You also presume that what you are interpreting are things that you think women like, which therefore means it's SJW...which is, in both aspects...well, presumptuous, don't you think? Your opinion is your own, of course, and everyone interprets things as they like.
Liam: Not my cuppa tea, but different and funny. I didn't have too much of a problem with him until his loyalty mission. The security officer engaged in a massive breach of security. In my book that made him reckless and irresponsible. Really couldn't look at him as anything else after that. The mission itself was funny though.
Drack: What's wrong with him? He's wise as krogan go, and funny. I enjoyed listening to him banter with Vetra. Unless you wanna interpret old as bad and only SJWs would like crusty old people. Maybe don't watch Logan's Run. I wonder why that was never remade... they remade just about everything else from the 70's.
Hark: took me a good five minutes to even remember who that was, but if hyper aggression brought the krogan to the brink of annihilation multiple times, a less aggressive one by definition will be the future of their people.
Spender: Yup. He's a racist weasel.
Tann: Yup. He's a political weasel.
Jaal: I guess I figured he wasn't talking about his feelings unless you were playing SisRyder. I did like the character's openness - the anti-Alenko.
Alec: I'm more of the opinion that Ryder Sr. died because he was an N7 - symbolically killed off by the writers in the beginning of a new series to make way for the new protagonist. No more N7 for you, fans! Wish they hadn't done that. I'd have had more fun playing a DadRyder or MomRyder I think.
Gil, the anti-Kallo: He's a bit shortsighted and impulsive, really
Kallo, the anti-Gil: He's a bit too rigid, really
But I like them both - funny, talented engineers keeping the ship in one piece.
Cora: I like Cora, but she's a follower, and has never taken her own initiative and been a leader. That's why DadRyder passed her over - she wasn't ready. She spends the entire game telling you about how she needs to look to somebody else's guidance or opinion, or strategies.
Lexi: It's hard to think of Lexi as pretty since the devs made her appearance so completely interchangeable. Looks like every other asari except Peebee. She's a bit awkward, but I like her.
Vetra: Yup. FemGarrus. Well, softened up a bit by a kid sister.
Peebee: FemLiam. Also cooled her heels in my games. I wanted to cycle the airlock in the escape pod she was blocking, really, but there was no option to space her. I will say I got a mod that removed that ridiculous raccoon mask, and I am no longer annoyed as much.
Kesh: I like her. There was a severe shortage of krogan females, or any krogans portrayed as smart in the series.
Suvi: You forgot to mention she is a homosexual romance option as well. Also a likeable sort, sciencing the snot out of things for the team. I like the conversations with her, but otherwise *shrug*
Other forgotten honorable mentions:
Addison: She's a mean spirited bureaucrat who didn't appeal any more than Tann. Her face is tired...I was tired of the character a good 15 seconds after I encountered her, but antagonists are there to be interesting foils in character interactions.
Sloan: Arrogant, tyrannical, evil/brutal weasel. I'm told that in the books, her character's motivations make her a lot more sympathetic, but I will probably never read them and would space her too, given the option. She reminds me of Aria, and she needed spacing a few games ago.
Reyes: Dishonest, self-serving untrustworthy weasel someone thought would be charming. And, stuck me with the bill. Still, I think he's likely to be better for Kadara in power. Just don't trust him not to shoot you in the head if it serves his purpose.
Kandros: Wish we could take him on the mission squads, but we only hear him in MP. When it's not bugged out.
"Drack: What's wrong with him? He's wise as krogan go, and funny. I enjoyed listening to him banter with Vetra. Unless you wanna interpret old as bad and only SJWs would like crusty old people. Maybe don't watch Logan's Run. I wonder why that was never remade... they remade just about everything else from the 70's."
Oh, not a darn thing wrong with him, other than they make it plain he is a relic of times past and that he is going to die soon....well soon for Krogan lifetimes anyway. The point I was trying and it seems failing to make with him, is they make sure, you KNOW he is a relic and thus something from times past who is past due on checking out. I love Drak the character, he was in my team like 90% of the time my first play and still creeps back in more than he should when I am trying to use different characters for each play. I would both hate and like to see a new Logan's Run....like because I think they could do so much with it....hate it cause some snot of a director in Hollywood would just "KNOW" how to make it better and likely mess it up, and ruin the message it gave.
Yeah, forgot Suvi romance....
The one thing that really sold me on Sloan, was she was all up front on what she was doing. If she didn't like you, you knew it, and you knew her rules because they were out there and known. Sloan also was pretty happy with Kadara and keeping "Her" people alive and while her methods were brutal, they were effective. Many people have/had an issue with the idea of protection money to be paid, but I can understand it, as that is a fairly primitive form of taxation, which works, but there are better ways. Reyes....sigh, he wants to be great, and I could easily see him causing major issues for the Nexus in a few years as he expands his network and interests well beyond Kadara. Reyes is also a two faced snake, and I will NEVER side with him in any of my games, even if you see in the end it is better seemingly for Kadara if you do, as a more open and free port......I just always wonder what he is going to go for next? I could easily see him as Shadowbroker 2.0.
Please don't get me started on Addison...Honestly, the first time she and Tann said ANYTHING bad to me after Eos, I would have been on the coms working to have them replaced by any means necessary, as pathfinder prerogative, for the good of the Initiative.
Liam...the issue I had with him was he was supposed to be a Crisis response recruit, ex-cop and security expert. This was his background. Crisis response SHOULD have meant he was calm, logical, efficient, adaptable, and Ex-cop and security expert should have meant he was all those things along with a bit cynical, and cautious with information. Now in game, as I am sure you are aware, he was erratic, prone to losing his temper and not thinking situations through, yeah, massive security breach on a whim, caused Ryder to try to commit intellectual property theft on a alien world who allowed them there on a trial basis which is incredibly reckless. I know Liam is part of the pathfinder team, but what the heck is a SECURITY team member doing trying to handle trade of technology and with Jaal cultural integration?? He should be concentrating on basic needs of planets, such as water, food, and medical distribution, not stealing stuff from neighbors which could cause a diplomatic nightmare and shut off access to a valuable ally and their planet of supplies. He should be designing safety measures for colonies, and action plans for them, not giving out free access to Nexus systems for some nebulous good will. Basically his character didn't make ANY sense to me in his actions throughout the game based off his history given and supposed job description. That is why I think he and Vetra should have swapped positions and let him be the supply person and Vetra be the crisis response and security person. Also the shirtless scenes both with Jaal and later just seemed to be an obvious ploy to cater to women gamers, as they really didn't make sense to me in the story context. I am hetro-male, so I can't offer a decent critique of how it looked, but it almost seemed to me as a make-up for the Miranda Butt scene from ME2....but I think Miranda's butt is better...lol.
Main point I was trying to show with the list is a bit how they wrote male versus female characters, while seemingly trying to cater to women gamers, and possibly wider interests. Aggressive hyper capable men are relics, or in Jaals case really in touch with emotional side. Men are generally shown in a worse light, versus how they portray women. As it seems they go to greater lengths to NOT have a barbie doll character that is beautiful and dumb woman category.....ie they really don't have a female Liam(if you find him attractive, I know they wanted him to be). This may just be how the story shakes out, or it may be an effort.....I like the debate.
As to why this part of my post....it is fun, both to see what others think, to show patterns of people's actions, which may or may not be intended. It is also a way to also show and highlight how different people think and spark debate. Healthy debate enriches and enlightens all who participate....emphasis on HEALTHY debate.
So have fun....continue or not, but enjoy it either way.
