I Like Sloane

@mcsupersport

Sloane:

--While she does bully poor people, you also have to understand the culture of people in general you are dealing with.

No i don't. Exiles were not pirates, smugglers, and cutthroats - they were techs, specialists, and idealists. It is Sloane who turned them into criminals. Having a past of Alliance officer, Sloane founded a den of thieves feeding on misery of less fortunate; instead of a base of elite commandos protecting those who need protection.

With Outcasts having all the guns, armors, equipment, organization, and skills there is no need to bully others. Bullying means that they do not feel secure (which means that Sloane does not perceive herself as a good ruler/administrator) and/or that Sloane is hand-picking psychopaths and sadists into her own organization.

Also, the way that You treat people sets tone for how they are going to treat You. You cannot truly expect respect and loyalty by being a bully and a mobster.

--While Sloane is a drug lord, Reyes is a smuggler, torturer(see hidden room on Kadara badlands and the hidden hideout of the Collective), and since he is looking for power, probably deals drugs...too much money in it to leave it alone, you just never see it.

While this is controversial I perceive smugglers as much less "evil" and dangerous than drug lords.

Drug lords are destroying people completely, inside and outside. They are destroying families, social relations, companies and enterprises - ultimately they are destroying the society's foundation. They are living on misery of others. It is even worse when such a drug lord deprives others from all that they have with drugs, and then she also requires addicted to pay her extortion money and sentences them to ~death for not paying those.

Smuggling is usually affecting those rich enough to afford trade goods, ships, and crews. While it is evil and usually negatively impacts the whole society there are numerous ways to fight against smugglers, and if smuggling is kept (relatively) under control it is bearable for the society. Is some rare cases (like during wars or when aimed against some unjust laws and customs) smuggling can be even perceived as a good thing.

As far as tortures are concerned: true, both Outcasts and Collective are guilty. Which means there is little difference in this respect. I could say that Outcasts are torturing "for fun" (just check the terminal by holding cells in Sloane's stronghold); while Exiles are using it as a retribution and for information extraction. It is a slight difference, but it does matter to me - even though I am against tortures in general.

Eventually, please note that renegade Shepared was torturing some guys himself/herself, e.g. Kelham during "Sins of the Father" mission in ME2. So is Shepard just as bed as Sloane and Reyes just because of this one dark moment?

Ryes selling drugs is nowhere in the game - so I am not going to comment. Do You believe that Tann is selling drugs as well, just because You do not like Tann?

--Sloane's "arbitrary" decisions on public executions aren't so arbitrary, but calculated to both make a certain impression and satisfy the desire of those she rules over...it isn't a whim, but a power play and careful dance.

Eh... No. It means that Sloane is willing to give "bread and circuses" (eh, sorry - JUST "circuses") to entertain the mob, and to make them busy enough not to notice how poor ruler she is. Do You really want a leader that is willing to kill just anybody without any good reason at all because that is what a small fraction of his subjects asks for? I would certainly prefer to live in a domain where laws and lives are respected. You know, next time some of the Outcasts may decide that they do not like Vetra, or Ryder, or Christmas Tate. Good to know that You will willingly sacrifice Yourself for Slaone's "careful dance"...   :-(

--Reyes probably got the idea for the "trap" for Sloane from the one he fell for just a few missions earlier that Ryder had to help him out of...

Well, that is a nice observation, and I find it somehow valid. Though I still believe that Reyes was a bit better prepared than Sloane, and I am almost sure that he *would* survive even without Ryder's help (though probably he would be less successful in defeating his aggressors *at that time*).

--While Sloane may offend Ryder many times, she is up front about WHY...it isn't personal about Ryder, it is Ryder IS THE NEXUS to her, and she hates the Nexus, because of what Tann and co did.

Which means that Sloane is blinded with hatred, and is not able to see past it. She was, she is, and she will be an enemy to the Initiative.

I thought that You were defending Sloane, where is the positive argument?

--Sloane is asking for payment, but for the payment you get protection forces out at the outpost, as well as protection through Kadara port....and she comes later to help you as an ally.

Uh, the thing is that Ryder and Initiative have already payed time after time by supporting Sloane over and over again, by resetting the vault and thus making Kadara more hospitable, by bringing trade and aid to numerous of Kadara citizens, etc. Initiative outpost is beneficial for *everyone* on Kadara.

Collective is also actively protecting the outpost, Collective is also actively protecting the Initiative, yet Reyes recognizes that having Initiative on Kadara is a boon, and he does not expect to be paid for being helped.

Reyes also comes to Your help as an ally.

Reyes:

--Protects people from the Roakar...which he knew right where their base was, and didn't do anything until it weakened Slaone....otherwise he used the deaths by the Roakar and didn't do anything because they served his purpose, thus in my book he was partly responsible.

Uh... No? Reyes asked Ryder to gather proofs first. While Sloane is eager to pass sentences right-and-left disregarding actual guilt, Reyes wants Ryder to verify first if Roakar are to be blamed. They are - and thus Reyes takes immediate action against them. Fair and simple.

--does not ask to be acknowledged for it, because doing so would hurt his plan, if it didn't you bet he would have trumpeted it to the heavens...he is a user.

Well... He still allows Ryder to be perceived as the sole victor. There were many more options, like "with the help of some of Kadara smugglers", or even "with the help of Collective". Also, Reyes is well known on Kadara (heck, he is attending Sloane's parties!), so there is *really* no reason why he would need to hide that he was personally involved.

--Allowing something only in public, isn't allowing it, it is using it and while Sloane may not be your idea of a best government, it is still a form of it..warlord or King format.

This is not exactly true.

When people live in a domain where law is publicly respected, where leaders are at least pretending to be just, and where customs are beneficial to domain's subjects, people are more eager to turn to the "good side". They are respecting the law in return, they do trust local militia, they are supporting the customs. Of course corruption is still there, and it is still dangerous for the society; and many of the subjects will eventually get disillusioned. But there is at least some hope that society will improve in a couple of generations as people do perceive organisation as something worthy of their effort.

When people live in an anarchy, where there are no laws, where leaders are respected only for their strength and because people fear them, if subjects have no reason to support the government at all and are forced to treat militia more like occupying forces... Well, I guess You get the picture. There is nothing to build on, and no chance for improvement. Everyone is alone ans already set against everybody else, strength and brutality are the only solutions, and the only hope is to kill rather than get killed.

While both illusion of order and anarchy are bad, I would probably still prefer an illusion of order.

--Remaining gentle and respectful to the Initiative and Ryder, isn't hard for him, as it gets him what he wants and lulls them both into doing what he wants, it is just a different way of handling things, but isn't better if it isn't genuine, which you can't know because of the double crossing nature of Reyes. 

OK, so I have a gal that hates me, and a guy that can be genuine or not.

Is it even a hard choice?

--Both Sloane and Reyes can deal with the Angara, and you don't know how much discontent Reyes causes among the Angara for Slaone.

For one, I am quite sure that Evfra and Keema Dohrgun do much prefer Reyes to take over (they are very explicit in saying so). So well... No, Angara do *not* prefer Sloane.

--He is successful, but then so is Sloane, as she managed to keep them all alive, find them a home, and start the process of running a colony and successful port...

Uh... You mean that Sloane was exiled with thousands of others, then hand-picked several hundreds for "personal elite", and then allowed those hand-picked cronies to live of the other exiles? Well, if that is what You call a successful leader...   [shrugs]

--Always pays his dues???Like when he stiffs you for drinks, and expects you to be his lackey....

Uh, he returned the drink to me. Has he not returned it to You?

Plus Reyes always pays Ryder somehow for all his/her help. He never takes it for granted, like Sloane does.

--As for defeating his foes and avoiding bloodshed....you are being blind to the carnage he has instituted and orchestrated throughout Kadara and badlands...

Uh... OK, so we have Outcasts that are raiding all those poor exiled-exiles badlands-wide (which is clearly confirmed in dialogues), and it is somehow Reyes' fault to organize "neighborhood watch" to protect people from the raiders?   :-o

All the same, while Sloane would preferable call for an open battle against the Collective (even though - SERIOUSLY - she trust Ryder more than she trusts her own hand-picked elite???), and while she would waste hundreds of lives in the result; Reyes solution allows to eliminate Sloane without any collateral damage. That is a big thing to me.

--You don't know if he does support the Initiative, you assume he does and he puts on a good lip service but you don't know how far or how long........He is duplicitous.

Sloane is not supporting for sure - that much I know.

I see little reason for Reyes to betray the Initiative at this stage. Perhaps he will come with some reasons in the future - and I definitely will need to watch him carefully. But currently he *is* a great asset.

Sloane is not.

Duel

As far as the duel goes, he couldn't shoot first, as that would have been a sign of weakness.

Eh... Excuse me?

When sniper fires, Reyes does not even pretend that he has shot. He makes some funny gestures and mocks Sloane even further. There is no *pretending* that it was a fair duel, and it doesn't seem to me that there was any intention of Reyes pretending that it was. Have You ever seen the cutscene where Ryder does not prevent the as$as$ination?

The sniper would have shot just as Reyes drew his gun killing Slaone in a way that it looked legit win for Reyes.  That way Reyes could go out and say he "won" and everyone is now under his command.

Nope, as per my understanding it was never the intention. Reyes simply wanted to eliminate Sloane, and to have some fun in the process. To mock Sloane and to dispose her as a silly, weak, unintelligent lass that she was. He does not even asks the sniper or Ryder to keep the as$as$ination a secret. He only asks not to be exposed as a Charlatan.

but if he cheated, then many would have fought back or looked to overthrow him, as that would have been a sign of weakness on his part, that he couldn't fight her and win.

Uh, again: Reyes never *tried* to hide this was not a fair duel. Please, see the cutscene Yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5aJQICYbnk

What I don't understand is....why the heck couldn't Ryder bring the whole team in, and bang...one is dead...then ok team, move in, Survivor you are either arrested or killed by Ryders team and NOW THE INITIATIVE RUNS KADARA

You mean why Ryder does not turn into an oppressor who power grabs Kadara? I guess that he/she is to wise for that. Even without their leaders Outcasts and Collective agents would still need to be defeated, and they would not lie down their weapons easily. There would be a full-fledged war, with the Initiative and innocents in the middle. With only one of the leaders killed, the other party easily takes the upper hand, without compromising any third parties.

@fudgietroll

I would like to know where the idea that the Nexus "gave" the exiles anything came from. I'm not 100% sure if the Krogan and militia pushed them off the Nexus or if they forced a cease-fire and let the Exiles retreat, but ALL of the information I've found says they had to leave quickly with whatever they could grab.

The whole rebellion is explicitly detailed in the Andromeda: Nexus Uprising book. While I do know that book is not a game, and that we had some conflicts between game lore and other media lore in the past, in this case the book seems to be 100% compliant. All the dialogues, datapads, and codex entries supports the book.

Rebels were defeated by Krogans and contained. They were disarmed, and could have been all easily slayed if Tann decided to go that far. Actually both Tann and Addison hoped that the rebels would decide to go back to cryo, and that the whole thing would be ultimately resolved when situation is back to normal. Sloane was prideful, however, and decided to go to exile instead. She *was* charismatic, and Tann was not - so other rebels decided to leave along with Sloane. They were given shuttles, arms, equipment, food, and water - though this is true that they not really believed that there are any safe ports that they can go to.

As for the Cryo and trial thing, if you had been rebelling against Tann, would you really honestly be willing to trust him enough to get placed helplessly in cryo, and, if you woke up, think you would get any sort of fair hearing and sentencing?

I do not know. There were some pretty good reasons for them to rebel in the first place, but it is not that I do not understand Tann. Actually I kinda like him, though I definitely find him lacking in social skills (also, I do not like him to be a specist/racist). He was right with many things - more than Sloane was willing to admit - but so were rebels.

Also, I think that Tann would have no other choice. When situation got back to normal and other people were awaken, they would ask about their colleagues, friends, and relatives. Tann would need to release rebels from cryo then, and to run the trials in public.

I do not believe that Tann is a cold murderer, and that he would sabotage pods with rebels inside. Actually as per my interpretation of the book, he *really* wanted to resolve the situation without any further victims.

As for the Exile's from Vetra's mission, The Nexus didn't pick them up, Prodromos did, which is very much NOT the same thing, even though they are both technically Initiative.

Uh... It was orchestrated by Sid, and she was Nexus, right?   ;-)

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@Kondaru wrote:

Uh... It was orchestrated by Sid, and she was Nexus, right?   ;-)

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i think the point here was that cid started the rescue on her own, and then had smuggled them to podromos, without official sanction to do it. if you're joking, then forget i said anything.

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@Kondaru wrote:

@mcsupersport

Sloane:

--While she does bully poor people, you also have to understand the culture of people in general you are dealing with.

No i don't. Exiles were not pirates, smugglers, and cutthroats - they were techs, specialists, and idealists. It is Sloane who turned them into criminals. Having a past of Alliance officer, Sloane founded a den of thieves feeding on misery of less fortunate; instead of a base of elite commandos protecting those who need protection.

With Outcasts having all the guns, armors, equipment, organization, and skills there is no need to bully others. Bullying means that they do not feel secure (which means that Sloane does not perceive herself as a good ruler/administrator) and/or that Sloane is hand-picking psychopaths and sadists into her own organization.

Also, the way that You treat people sets tone for how they are going to treat You. You cannot truly expect respect and loyalty by being a bully and a mobster.

--While Sloane is a drug lord, Reyes is a smuggler, torturer(see hidden room on Kadara badlands and the hidden hideout of the Collective), and since he is looking for power, probably deals drugs...too much money in it to leave it alone, you just never see it.

While this is controversial I perceive smugglers as much less "evil" and dangerous than drug lords.

Drug lords are destroying people completely, inside and outside. They are destroying families, social relations, companies and enterprises - ultimately they are destroying the society's foundation. They are living on misery of others. It is even worse when such a drug lord deprives others from all that they have with drugs, and then she also requires addicted to pay her extortion money and sentences them to ~death for not paying those.

Smuggling is usually affecting those rich enough to afford trade goods, ships, and crews. While it is evil and usually negatively impacts the whole society there are numerous ways to fight against smugglers, and if smuggling is kept (relatively) under control it is bearable for the society. Is some rare cases (like during wars or when aimed against some unjust laws and customs) smuggling can be even perceived as a good thing.

As far as tortures are concerned: true, both Outcasts and Collective are guilty. Which means there is little difference in this respect. I could say that Outcasts are torturing "for fun" (just check the terminal by holding cells in Sloane's stronghold); while Exiles are using it as a retribution and for information extraction. It is a slight difference, but it does matter to me - even though I am against tortures in general.

Eventually, please note that renegade Shepared was torturing some guys himself/herself, e.g. Kelham during "Sins of the Father" mission in ME2. So is Shepard just as bed as Sloane and Reyes just because of this one dark moment?

Ryes selling drugs is nowhere in the game - so I am not going to comment. Do You believe that Tann is selling drugs as well, just because You do not like Tann?

--Sloane's "arbitrary" decisions on public executions aren't so arbitrary, but calculated to both make a certain impression and satisfy the desire of those she rules over...it isn't a whim, but a power play and careful dance.

Eh... No. It means that Sloane is willing to give "bread and circuses" (eh, sorry - JUST "circuses") to entertain the mob, and to make them busy enough not to notice how poor ruler she is. Do You really want a leader that is willing to kill just anybody without any good reason at all because that is what a small fraction of his subjects asks for? I would certainly prefer to live in a domain where laws and lives are respected. You know, next time some of the Outcasts may decide that they do not like Vetra, or Ryder, or Christmas Tate. Good to know that You will willingly sacrifice Yourself for Slaone's "careful dance"...   :-(

--Reyes probably got the idea for the "trap" for Sloane from the one he fell for just a few missions earlier that Ryder had to help him out of...

Well, that is a nice observation, and I find it somehow valid. Though I still believe that Reyes was a bit better prepared than Sloane, and I am almost sure that he *would* survive even without Ryder's help (though probably he would be less successful in defeating his aggressors *at that time*).

--While Sloane may offend Ryder many times, she is up front about WHY...it isn't personal about Ryder, it is Ryder IS THE NEXUS to her, and she hates the Nexus, because of what Tann and co did.

Which means that Sloane is blinded with hatred, and is not able to see past it. She was, she is, and she will be an enemy to the Initiative.

I thought that You were defending Sloane, where is the positive argument?

--Sloane is asking for payment, but for the payment you get protection forces out at the outpost, as well as protection through Kadara port....and she comes later to help you as an ally.

Uh, the thing is that Ryder and Initiative have already payed time after time by supporting Sloane over and over again, by resetting the vault and thus making Kadara more hospitable, by bringing trade and aid to numerous of Kadara citizens, etc. Initiative outpost is beneficial for *everyone* on Kadara.

Collective is also actively protecting the outpost, Collective is also actively protecting the Initiative, yet Reyes recognizes that having Initiative on Kadara is a boon, and he does not expect to be paid for being helped.

Reyes also comes to Your help as an ally.

Reyes:

--Protects people from the Roakar...which he knew right where their base was, and didn't do anything until it weakened Slaone....otherwise he used the deaths by the Roakar and didn't do anything because they served his purpose, thus in my book he was partly responsible.

Uh... No? Reyes asked Ryder to gather proofs first. While Sloane is eager to pass sentences right-and-left disregarding actual guilt, Reyes wants Ryder to verify first if Roakar are to be blamed. They are - and thus Reyes takes immediate action against them. Fair and simple.

--does not ask to be acknowledged for it, because doing so would hurt his plan, if it didn't you bet he would have trumpeted it to the heavens...he is a user.

Well... He still allows Ryder to be perceived as the sole victor. There were many more options, like "with the help of some of Kadara smugglers", or even "with the help of Collective". Also, Reyes is well known on Kadara (heck, he is attending Sloane's parties!), so there is *really* no reason why he would need to hide that he was personally involved.

--Allowing something only in public, isn't allowing it, it is using it and while Sloane may not be your idea of a best government, it is still a form of it..warlord or King format.

This is not exactly true.

When people live in a domain where law is publicly respected, where leaders are at least pretending to be just, and where customs are beneficial to domain's subjects, people are more eager to turn to the "good side". They are respecting the law in return, they do trust local militia, they are supporting the customs. Of course corruption is still there, and it is still dangerous for the society; and many of the subjects will eventually get disillusioned. But there is at least some hope that society will improve in a couple of generations as people do perceive organisation as something worthy of their effort.

When people live in an anarchy, where there are no laws, where leaders are respected only for their strength and because people fear them, if subjects have no reason to support the government at all and are forced to treat militia more like occupying forces... Well, I guess You get the picture. There is nothing to build on, and no chance for improvement. Everyone is alone ans already set against everybody else, strength and brutality are the only solutions, and the only hope is to kill rather than get killed.

While both illusion of order and anarchy are bad, I would probably still prefer an illusion of order.

--Remaining gentle and respectful to the Initiative and Ryder, isn't hard for him, as it gets him what he wants and lulls them both into doing what he wants, it is just a different way of handling things, but isn't better if it isn't genuine, which you can't know because of the double crossing nature of Reyes. 

OK, so I have a gal that hates me, and a guy that can be genuine or not.

Is it even a hard choice?

--Both Sloane and Reyes can deal with the Angara, and you don't know how much discontent Reyes causes among the Angara for Slaone.

For one, I am quite sure that Evfra and Keema Dohrgun do much prefer Reyes to take over (they are very explicit in saying so). So well... No, Angara do *not* prefer Sloane.

--He is successful, but then so is Sloane, as she managed to keep them all alive, find them a home, and start the process of running a colony and successful port...

Uh... You mean that Sloane was exiled with thousands of others, then hand-picked several hundreds for "personal elite", and then allowed those hand-picked cronies to live of the other exiles? Well, if that is what You call a successful leader...   [shrugs]

--Always pays his dues???Like when he stiffs you for drinks, and expects you to be his lackey....

Uh, he returned the drink to me. Has he not returned it to You?

Plus Reyes always pays Ryder somehow for all his/her help. He never takes it for granted, like Sloane does.

--As for defeating his foes and avoiding bloodshed....you are being blind to the carnage he has instituted and orchestrated throughout Kadara and badlands...

Uh... OK, so we have Outcasts that are raiding all those poor exiled-exiles badlands-wide (which is clearly confirmed in dialogues), and it is somehow Reyes' fault to organize "neighborhood watch" to protect people from the raiders?   :-o

All the same, while Sloane would preferable call for an open battle against the Collective (even though - SERIOUSLY - she trust Ryder more than she trusts her own hand-picked elite???), and while she would waste hundreds of lives in the result; Reyes solution allows to eliminate Sloane without any collateral damage. That is a big thing to me.

--You don't know if he does support the Initiative, you assume he does and he puts on a good lip service but you don't know how far or how long........He is duplicitous.

Sloane is not supporting for sure - that much I know.

I see little reason for Reyes to betray the Initiative at this stage. Perhaps he will come with some reasons in the future - and I definitely will need to watch him carefully. But currently he *is* a great asset.

Sloane is not.

Duel

As far as the duel goes, he couldn't shoot first, as that would have been a sign of weakness.

Eh... Excuse me?

When sniper fires, Reyes does not even pretend that he has shot. He makes some funny gestures and mocks Sloane even further. There is no *pretending* that it was a fair duel, and it doesn't seem to me that there was any intention of Reyes pretending that it was. Have You ever seen the cutscene where Ryder does not prevent the as$as$ination?

The sniper would have shot just as Reyes drew his gun killing Slaone in a way that it looked legit win for Reyes.  That way Reyes could go out and say he "won" and everyone is now under his command.

Nope, as per my understanding it was never the intention. Reyes simply wanted to eliminate Sloane, and to have some fun in the process. To mock Sloane and to dispose her as a silly, weak, unintelligent lass that she was. He does not even asks the sniper or Ryder to keep the as$as$ination a secret. He only asks not to be exposed as a Charlatan.

but if he cheated, then many would have fought back or looked to overthrow him, as that would have been a sign of weakness on his part, that he couldn't fight her and win.

Uh, again: Reyes never *tried* to hide this was not a fair duel. Please, see the cutscene Yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5aJQICYbnk

What I don't understand is....why the heck couldn't Ryder bring the whole team in, and bang...one is dead...then ok team, move in, Survivor you are either arrested or killed by Ryders team and NOW THE INITIATIVE RUNS KADARA

You mean why Ryder does not turn into an oppressor who power grabs Kadara? I guess that he/she is to wise for that. Even without their leaders Outcasts and Collective agents would still need to be defeated, and they would not lie down their weapons easily. There would be a full-fledged war, with the Initiative and innocents in the middle. With only one of the leaders killed, the other party easily takes the upper hand, without compromising any third parties.

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@fudgietroll

I would like to know where the idea that the Nexus "gave" the exiles anything came from. I'm not 100% sure if the Krogan and militia pushed them off the Nexus or if they forced a cease-fire and let the Exiles retreat, but ALL of the information I've found says they had to leave quickly with whatever they could grab.

The whole rebellion is explicitly detailed in the Andromeda: Nexus Uprising book. While I do know that book is not a game, and that we had some conflicts between game lore and other media lore in the past, in this case the book seems to be 100% compliant. All the dialogues, datapads, and codex entries supports the book.

Rebels were defeated by Krogans and contained. They were disarmed, and could have been all easily slayed if Tann decided to go that far. Actually both Tann and Addison hoped that the rebels would decide to go back to cryo, and that the whole thing would be ultimately resolved when situation is back to normal. Sloane was prideful, however, and decided to go to exile instead. She *was* charismatic, and Tann was not - so other rebels decided to leave along with Sloane. They were given shuttles, arms, equipment, food, and water - though this is true that they not really believed that there are any safe ports that they can go to.

As for the Cryo and trial thing, if you had been rebelling against Tann, would you really honestly be willing to trust him enough to get placed helplessly in cryo, and, if you woke up, think you would get any sort of fair hearing and sentencing?

I do not know. There were some pretty good reasons for them to rebel in the first place, but it is not that I do not understand Tann. Actually I kinda like him, though I definitely find him lacking in social skills (also, I do not like him to be a specist/racist). He was right with many things - more than Sloane was willing to admit - but so were rebels.

Also, I think that Tann would have no other choice. When situation got back to normal and other people were awaken, they would ask about their colleagues, friends, and relatives. Tann would need to release rebels from cryo then, and to run the trials in public.

I do not believe that Tann is a cold murderer, and that he would sabotage pods with rebels inside. Actually as per my interpretation of the book, he *really* wanted to resolve the situation without any further victims.

 

As for the Exile's from Vetra's mission, The Nexus didn't pick them up, Prodromos did, which is very much NOT the same thing, even though they are both technically Initiative.

Uh... It was orchestrated by Sid, and she was Nexus, right?   ;-)

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How is Sloane any better or worse than Reyes as an asset? They will both continue to operate Kadara exactly the same. If anything, Sloane comes to the final boss fight unasked. She also trusts me. She made me her second for the duel. It boils down to are you romantically involved with Reyes (or not) and are you comfortable with betraying Sloane (or not). No, it is not fair the game didn't give you a choice there.

She is the one who is willing to meet with the opposition knowing full well it is a trap. She is the one who accepts Reyes crazy offer of a duel. She is the one who hasn't tried to stomp out the collective from the start.

Reyes' word is worth no more than the value of the CO2 within it. Your choice is how do you want to play the Kadara game? Do you want to do so unwittingly and be used or do you want to know? If you want anything to change there you are choosing between someone who will tell you what they want/you want to hear and (may or may not change) and someone who will tell you like it is (and then may or may not change).

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

How is Sloane any better or worse than Reyes as an asset? They will both continue to operate Kadara exactly the same. If anything, Sloane comes to the final boss fight unasked. She also trusts me. She made me her second for the duel. It boils down to are you romantically involved with Reyes (or not) and are you comfortable with betraying Sloane (or not). No, it is not fair the game didn't give you a choice there.

She is the one who is willing to meet with the opposition knowing full well it is a trap. She is the one who accepts Reyes crazy offer of a duel. She is the one who hasn't tried to stomp out the collective from the start.

Reyes' word is worth no more than the value of the CO2 within it. Your choice is how do you want to play the Kadara game? Do you want to do so unwittingly and be used or do you want to know? If you want anything to change there you are choosing between someone who will tell you what they want/you want to hear and (may or may not change) and someone who will tell you like it is (and then may or may not change).

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it's hardly as simple a situation as that.

---edit

 i suppose i could go into it, though i can't figure out a rebuttal that's doesn't sound personal in some way, so i'll just stop here.

however, if you aren't swayed at all by the post above yours (i refer to the one you quoted in it), nothing i say would do any better, so i'll just agree to disagree here. 

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

How is Sloane any better or worse than Reyes as an asset? They will both continue to operate Kadara exactly the same. If anything, Sloane comes to the final boss fight unasked. She also trusts me. She made me her second for the duel. It boils down to are you romantically involved with Reyes (or not) and are you comfortable with betraying Sloane (or not). No, it is not fair the game didn't give you a choice there.

She is the one who is willing to meet with the opposition knowing full well it is a trap. She is the one who accepts Reyes crazy offer of a duel. She is the one who hasn't tried to stomp out the collective from the start.

Reyes' word is worth no more than the value of the CO2 within it. Your choice is how do you want to play the Kadara game? Do you want to do so unwittingly and be used or do you want to know? If you want anything to change there you are choosing between someone who will tell you what they want/you want to hear and (may or may not change) and someone who will tell you like it is (and then may or may not change).

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it's hardly as simple a situation as that.

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If you're going to complicate it you have to elaborate. 🙂

Add to your add: Fire away, it just depends on the phrasing. I kinda like good-natured teasing, and you're welcome to, but you have to walk the line between concentrating it against argument and shifting it to personal. If it is personal passion for something, that's pure opinion and I always like to hear it even if I disagree.

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@mcsupersport wrote:
Hoestly, I personally see it as a choice between Aria T'loak and the Shadow Broker...who do I want to help keep/gain power. Sloane will be happy to have and rule Kadara whIle Reyes will have his hands everywhere and be just as ruthless as Sloane...just more hidden and prettier up. To those that point out he did not grab a "tbrone" like Sloane...the most powerful people in politics are often those BEHIND the throne and hidden. I would rather have the devil that is out in the open, and known than the one hiding behind a mask weaving intricate web...

This is again, just my opinion and we will have to see how bioware plays it.

As far as Ryder taking over goes, don't see the issue...Outcasts are leaderless, Collective is leaderless, Ryder could bring in initiative to calm things with help from Angara. Some of both may fight, but you would have cut the heart and soul out of both....and no reason you would have to have been an oppressor, much the way you could take over in Elendan....take over administration, and show fairness, people would respond.

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There's where I'm at - Reyes thinks it is some kind of game and likes to play it to feel like he is "somebody". Sloane is playing to survive.  Maybe I would need to read the book to feel differently - but if Reyes isn't in the book too I'm not sure what it would do to add anything.

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@mcsupersport wrote:
Hoestly, I personally see it as a choice between Aria T'loak and the Shadow Broker...

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I will pick Liara any day 😃

(you forgot to mention which one, so I kinda abused it a little lol) 

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@mcsupersport wrote:
Hoestly, I personally see it as a choice between Aria T'loak and the Shadow Broker...who do I want to help keep/gain power. Sloane will be happy to have and rule Kadara whIle Reyes will have his hands everywhere and be just as ruthless as Sloane...just more hidden and prettier up. To those that point out he did not grab a "tbrone" like Sloane...the most powerful people in politics are often those BEHIND the throne and hidden. I would rather have the devil that is out in the open, and known than the one hiding behind a mask weaving intricate web...

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You would rather have Henry VIII of England than Cardinal Richelieu? Aww..., but who would ever pick someone over Cardinal Richelieu? Actually, aren't the Collective troops red, or am I just mentally fitting them to the example? (I could have used Oliver Cromwell instead of Henry VIII I suppose)

@fudgietroll

iirc, the collective had tan uniforms with red paint, the outcast mainly had red, while the generic exiles had sort of bluish... or did i get that last bit backwards?

@jpcerutti1

i'd basically just be rehashing what Kondaru said with my own tilt added. and i might add something along the lines of: it seems to me that you either are so ingrained with your own opinions of sloane that you can't or will not accept anyone else's, the same seems to be true with your opinion of reyes. and i also admit i could be inflicted by the same condition on my end, however, i at least try to see things from every perspective available too me, and it seems like you may be unwilling to do the same. though if that is not the case i have no issues recanting.

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

@fudgietroll

iirc, the collective had tan uniforms with red paint, the outcast mainly had red, while the generic exiles had sort of bluish... or did i get that last bit backwards

@jpcerutti1

i'd basically just be rehashing what Kondaru said with my own tilt added. and i might add something along the lines of: it seems to me that you either are so ingrained with your own opinions of sloane that you can't or will not accept anyone else's, the same seems to be true with your opinion of reyes. and i also admit i could be inflicted by the same condition on my end, however, i at least try to see things from ever perspective available too me, and it seems like you may be unwilling to do the same. though if that is not the case i have no issues recanting.

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Okay, but I thought I was an equal opportunity snark machine. I guess I'll have to do a better job of picking at Sloane - but thought I'd give her the benefit of the doubt in my "I like Sloane" thread. 😃

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

@fudgietroll

iirc, the collective had tan uniforms with red paint, the outcast mainly had red, while the generic exiles had sort of bluish... or did i get that last bit backwards

@jpcerutti1

i'd basically just be rehashing what Kondaru said with my own tilt added. and i might add something along the lines of: it seems to me that you either are so ingrained with your own opinions of sloane that you can't or will not accept anyone else's, the same seems to be true with your opinion of reyes. and i also admit i could be inflicted by the same condition on my end, however, i at least try to see things from ever perspective available too me, and it seems like you may be unwilling to do the same. though if that is not the case i have no issues recanting.

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Okay, but I thought I was an equal opportunity snark machine. I guess I'll have to do a better job of picking at Sloane - but thought I'd give her the benefit of the doubt in my "I like Sloane" thread. 😃

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and if you're wondering, that's about as personal i get when chatting. i don't find that aggressive, and as far as i can tell, i think i'm being respectful, but as i didn't really have anything to add over what kondaru figured it's best not to risk it. as some people have lower thresholds for such dialogue exchanges.

---edit

though, i do tend to get very personal when some idiot gets our party wiped during a raid by being... well, an idiot. this one time doing a dungeon run in wow, a moronic rogue... no, not getting into it. 

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

---

@CasperTheLich wrote:

@fudgietroll

iirc, the collective had tan uniforms with red paint, the outcast mainly had red, while the generic exiles had sort of bluish... or did i get that last bit backwards

@jpcerutti1

i'd basically just be rehashing what Kondaru said with my own tilt added. and i might add something along the lines of: it seems to me that you either are so ingrained with your own opinions of sloane that you can't or will not accept anyone else's, the same seems to be true with your opinion of reyes. and i also admit i could be inflicted by the same condition on my end, however, i at least try to see things from ever perspective available too me, and it seems like you may be unwilling to do the same. though if that is not the case i have no issues recanting.

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Okay, but I thought I was an equal opportunity snark machine. I guess I'll have to do a better job of picking at Sloane - but thought I'd give her the benefit of the doubt in my "I like Sloane" thread. 😃

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and if you're wondering, that's about as personal i get when chatting. i don't find that aggressive, and as far as i can tell, i think i'm being respectful, but as i didn't really have anything to add over what kondaru figured it's best not to risk it. as some people have lower thresholds for such dialogue exchanges.

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Never thought you haven't been. If I crossed a line somewheres with jest, my apologies.

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

Never thought you haven't been. If I crossed a line somewheres with jest, my apologies.

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lol... no, nothing like that. lets not start killing each other with kindness now. 

Honestly if Reyes does turn out to be an idiot - there are going to be a lot of disappointed female fans who once again get shafted with the crappy romance option or the tradgic romance or whatever. And the poor gay/bi guys out there who only have 2 romance options to begin with lets not do it to them either.

did somebody just say that sloane was involved with the uprising on the nexus from the very beginning, and wasn't a turn coat? i saw it when i was reading through those mega posts and now i can't seem to find it. or did i just misread something?

if somebody actually did think that sloane was in it at the very beginning, hate to tell you... you're dead wrong. she was nexus at first, then completely switched sides, murdered a few people along the way. a complete betrayal. Darth Sidious would no doubt approve.

actually her betrayal was justified she had almost solved the uprising only to be blind sided by management by her own words :D

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@ViViD_Prime wrote:

actually her betrayal was justified she had almost solved the uprising only to be blind sided by management by her own words :D

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i haven't heard this yet... what's the source?

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@Nykara360 wrote:

Honestly if Reyes does turn out to be an idiot - there are going to be a lot of disappointed female fans who once again get shafted with the crappy romance option or the tradgic romance or whatever. And the poor gay/bi guys out there who only have 2 romance options to begin with lets not do it to them either.

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Unfortunately, I see Reyes going about as well as Jacob did (there was a fork in your back out of the blue). Maybe we'll all be pleasantly surprised.

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

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@Nykara360 wrote:

Honestly if Reyes does turn out to be an idiot - there are going to be a lot of disappointed female fans who once again get shafted with the crappy romance option or the tradgic romance or whatever. And the poor gay/bi guys out there who only have 2 romance options to begin with lets not do it to them either.

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Unfortunately, I see Reyes going about as well as Jacob did (there was a fork in your back out of the blue). Maybe we'll all be pleasantly surprised.

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i hope so, i'm about fed up with being unpleasantly surprised, i must be getting jaded in my advanced years... i'm 33- going on 80

@jpcerutti1

If I don't shoot him I am no more or less an ally than I ever was AND all I did was prevent him from killing Sloane. The 'war' that follows is all on him/them - as is any cleanup action if Sloane dies. I can't claim credit for shortening any bloodshed - nor do I get the blame if blood flows. Not my war to start or stop.

You are absolutely right - from Ryder's perspective. From perspective of Collective agents: You just decided that many more of them will die in a war that could have been avoided (without Sloane Outcasts surprisingly easily disperse). So when You visit Collective's hidden base again they are fully aware that probably more then half or them will die because of Your decision. Is it surprising that they believe You to be their enemy?

@fudgietroll

Drugs-

Trust Reyes or don't, but when he is in charge if he wanted them gone...

This is not exactly true: Reyes never wanted to "govern". He is an opportunist, and he usually works with criminals (in a ~similar way that Vetra does).  He opposes Sloane, Roekaar fanatics, and other threats - but he is not truly a *vigiliante*. He is not interested in making laws, he is not interested in reducing crime. He simply dislikes when people are mistreated, when honest merchants and craftsmen cannot get rich, when society decays... And even so, it is probably only because poor society makes his illicit trade more difficult.

He is obviously not deprived of positive emotions and goals (after all he helped Dr. Nakamoto with his clinic, right?), but he is far from being a do-gooder, and he is DEFINITELY not a paragon of justice.

Reyes is not going to fight pirates, cannibals, or drug dealers unless they become a real threat (or unless they get rich themselves). It would not surprise me if he allowed some low-lives to produce and deal drugs. On the other hand I would be very unhappy if *his own men* produced and dealt drugs.

Torture-

You apparently haven't found the torture room out in the Badlands yet. Definitely the Collective, definitely a lot more than a beating. Go find it and get back to me

You are right about the room - I have seen it. It was used for interrogations. There is even a datapad there that explains that the last "victim" was an Outcast pirate that captured and killed one of the Collective agents. Collective wanted to learn about their friend, as they hoped to release her.

It does not surprise me that interrogation room looks scary - actually that is the whole point. You are right that it is another example where Collective agents gave a thorough beating to someone - but once again, it was administered to Outcast criminal rather than to civvies. So it is still a bit better in my eyes than what Outcast do.

Vehn Terev is a traitor and a spy and admits it. By the laws of war he can be killed on the spot even outside of pirate colonies.

Uh... What law of war? Is there some intergalactic law that binds Milky Way species and Angara alike? Is it some custom on Earth that government of one country is allowed to kill subjects of another country because they broke some laws or regulations in this other country? Has Vehn Terev broken any of the Kadara laws? Or has the Resistance or Moshae herself - the only parties that were betrayed - asked for Vehn Terev to be killed?

Theoretically she could turn him over to Aya, but she doesn't have a map and the local Angara want Aya to But Out (see Kedara intel in Resistance HQ).

Uh... That is really, really stretched. Sloane know about Resistance, and actually Ryder himself/herself is eager to take Vehn Terev to Aya. So... Nope, there is no reason NOT TO give Vehn Terev to the Resistance.

Her final option is to give him to a representative of a government she is still more or less at war with who shows up and promptly demands she hand him over.

As far as I can tell Sloane is only at war with the Kett. And possibly with the Nexus...

Note: if a "him" wanted to go in shooting it was probably Kandros not Sloane, as Sloane is a "her".

English is not my first language. I am trying really hard to use it proficiently, but it happens from time to time that I fail. Perhaps I was a bit too emotional about my previous post, and thus forgot about the proper grammar. What I meant was that Tann and Addison had to stop Sloane from jettisoning first rebels on the Nexus.

Guerilla War-

Every Guerilla organization claims it either is an independent country or government or represents an independent country or government.

Collective does not.

The Collective and the Outcasts pretty much seemed equal military-wise, and I doubt you will find many people who would buy the idea that the Outcasts are vastly more powerful than the Collective.

You are mainly right. While Collective started weak, by the time Ryder visits Kadara it has grown, and seems to rival Outcasts in this aspect. So yes: it started weaker, but then it has grown. Which is just another proof of how much exiles must hate Sloane's dictatorship.

High Noon/Base-

Robin Hood has never shot the Sherriff in the back in any portrayal I've seen.

There is a nice serie by Angus Donald, in which Robin Hood seems almost to be a head of mafia.

But You are right.

So let me give You another example: Han Solo shot Greedo in a "treacherous" way, which is even more evident in the original (not enhanced) version of "New Hope". Is Han Solo so bad?   ;-)

Fewer people know the story of when David grew up, became king, and had an adult son of his own. (...) I feel like somewhere in there is an analogy to Reyes

It is a nice parallel, but I believe it matches Spender rather than Reyes. Do You rally think that Reyes stops Sloane from helping others? Like, I do not know... From beating civvies and selling drugs?   ;-)

@ViViD_Prime

@CasperTheLich

actually her betrayal was justified she had almost solved the uprising only to be blind sided by management by her own words :D

It is a bit more complex.

Sloane went to Calix to "negotiate" without informing Tann or Addison or Kesh - or literally anybody - about the fact. Her disappearance was one of the reasons why Nexus leaders got even more nervous (You know, Sloane was a leader of Nexus security, and it was moments after a clash between Rebels and Nexus forces), and so they decided to act immediately. And I would say that Sloane was very far from actually succeeding in negotiations. True, Calix was willing to speak to her, but not to surrender. Actually it was the other way around: Calix had almost persuaded Slaone. Or, well, actually he HAD persuaded Sloane. He suggested to dismiss Tann and Addison, and to give Nexus to Sloane. Sloane was considering his offer, oblivious to the fact that others (including Nexus security) may not be too happy with the solution. But even so, the proposal was never forwarded to the Nexus leaders.

When Morda and her warriors appeared, Sloane suggested to Calix to give up as she believed that Rebels stand no chance against Nakmor clan. Calix rejected and attacked the approaching Krogans. Then when fight started, Morda clearly suggested Sloane to get back "to the right side". In this very moment Sloane betrayed the Nexus, and sided with the Rebels.

So, uh... It was like a full-fledged betrayal to me.

Can Reyes do this?

So, all your argument is invalid. PUUU-HOHOHO

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@Kondaru wrote:

@jpcerutti1

If I don't shoot him I am no more or less an ally than I ever was AND all I did was prevent him from killing Sloane. The 'war' that follows is all on him/them - as is any cleanup action if Sloane dies. I can't claim credit for shortening any bloodshed - nor do I get the blame if blood flows. Not my war to start or stop.

You are absolutely right - from Ryder's perspective. From perspective of Collective agents: You just decided that many more of them will die in a war that could have been avoided (without Sloane Outcasts surprisingly easily disperse). So when You visit Collective's hidden base again they are fully aware that probably more then half or them will die because of Your decision. Is it surprising that they believe You to be their enemy?

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Heh. They never thought I was a potential ally, so, no. I did not find them continuing to shoot at me on sight disingenuous. I found it harder to believe they were shooting at me regularly while they were trying to convince me they were the side to pick over Sloane. I fail to see why they decided that would be an effective recruitment tool. 🙂

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

Heh. They never thought I was a potential ally, so, no. I did not find them continuing to shoot at me on sight disingenuous. I found it harder to believe they were shooting at me regularly while they were trying to convince me they were the side to pick over Sloane. I fail to see why they decided that would be an effective recruitment tool. 🙂

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Uh... Perhaps they were... You know... Presenting their guns to You. Just to display how worthy they are, and how well armed. Probably they were not gunning for You, it is just that their *aim* was lacking... But... Well, uh... Your Ryder is still alive... So *seemingly* they were not really trying to kill him/her, right? Right...   😇 😃

Yes, I find it a bit hilarious that both Outcasts and Collective random mobs are automatically attacking Ryder in badlands. It is obviously for gameplay purpose, and Devs put some really odd comments in-game to "explain" the fact (like that "badlands are free to all" or something). It is quite similar to the mages/templars thing in DAI on the first open world map (Hinterlands), but I still believe it made much more sense in DAI than it makes in MEA.   :-(

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@Kondaru wrote:

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

Heh. They never thought I was a potential ally, so, no. I did not find them continuing to shoot at me on sight disingenuous. I found it harder to believe they were shooting at me regularly while they were trying to convince me they were the side to pick over Sloane. I fail to see why they decided that would be an effective recruitment tool. 🙂

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Uh... Perhaps they were... You know... Presenting their guns to You. Just to display how worthy they are, and how well armed. Probably they were not gunning for You, it is just that their *aim* was lacking... But... Well, uh... Your Ryder is still alive... So *seemingly* they were not really trying to kill him/her, right? Right...   😇 😃

Yes, I find it a bit hilarious that both Outcasts and Collective random mobs are automatically attacking Ryder in badlands. It is obviously for gameplay purpose, and Devs put some really odd comments in-game to "explain" the fact (like that "badlands are free to all" or something). It is quite similar to the mages/templars thing in DAI on the first open world map (Hinterlands), but I still believe it made much more sense in DAI than it makes in MEA.   :-(

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in dai i just figured it was the red lerium causing both the rogue templar and insane mages to massacre... ah, just about everybody, because i doubt raiding a few war ravaged farmers repeatedly would pay for enough lerium to fuel a coffee pot, let alone either side of that particular conflict.