I Like Sloane

did somebody just say that sloane was involved with the uprising on the nexus from the very beginning, and wasn't a turn coat? i saw it when i was reading through those mega posts and now i can't seem to find it. or did i just misread something?

if somebody actually did think that sloane was in it at the very beginning, hate to tell you... you're dead wrong. she was nexus at first, then completely switched sides, murdered a few people along the way. a complete betrayal. Darth Sidious would no doubt approve.

actually her betrayal was justified she had almost solved the uprising only to be blind sided by management by her own words :D

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@ViViD_Prime wrote:

actually her betrayal was justified she had almost solved the uprising only to be blind sided by management by her own words :D

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i haven't heard this yet... what's the source?

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@Nykara360 wrote:

Honestly if Reyes does turn out to be an idiot - there are going to be a lot of disappointed female fans who once again get shafted with the crappy romance option or the tradgic romance or whatever. And the poor gay/bi guys out there who only have 2 romance options to begin with lets not do it to them either.

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Unfortunately, I see Reyes going about as well as Jacob did (there was a fork in your back out of the blue). Maybe we'll all be pleasantly surprised.

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

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@Nykara360 wrote:

Honestly if Reyes does turn out to be an idiot - there are going to be a lot of disappointed female fans who once again get shafted with the crappy romance option or the tradgic romance or whatever. And the poor gay/bi guys out there who only have 2 romance options to begin with lets not do it to them either.

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Unfortunately, I see Reyes going about as well as Jacob did (there was a fork in your back out of the blue). Maybe we'll all be pleasantly surprised.

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i hope so, i'm about fed up with being unpleasantly surprised, i must be getting jaded in my advanced years... i'm 33- going on 80

@jpcerutti1

If I don't shoot him I am no more or less an ally than I ever was AND all I did was prevent him from killing Sloane. The 'war' that follows is all on him/them - as is any cleanup action if Sloane dies. I can't claim credit for shortening any bloodshed - nor do I get the blame if blood flows. Not my war to start or stop.

You are absolutely right - from Ryder's perspective. From perspective of Collective agents: You just decided that many more of them will die in a war that could have been avoided (without Sloane Outcasts surprisingly easily disperse). So when You visit Collective's hidden base again they are fully aware that probably more then half or them will die because of Your decision. Is it surprising that they believe You to be their enemy?

@fudgietroll

Drugs-

Trust Reyes or don't, but when he is in charge if he wanted them gone...

This is not exactly true: Reyes never wanted to "govern". He is an opportunist, and he usually works with criminals (in a ~similar way that Vetra does).  He opposes Sloane, Roekaar fanatics, and other threats - but he is not truly a *vigiliante*. He is not interested in making laws, he is not interested in reducing crime. He simply dislikes when people are mistreated, when honest merchants and craftsmen cannot get rich, when society decays... And even so, it is probably only because poor society makes his illicit trade more difficult.

He is obviously not deprived of positive emotions and goals (after all he helped Dr. Nakamoto with his clinic, right?), but he is far from being a do-gooder, and he is DEFINITELY not a paragon of justice.

Reyes is not going to fight pirates, cannibals, or drug dealers unless they become a real threat (or unless they get rich themselves). It would not surprise me if he allowed some low-lives to produce and deal drugs. On the other hand I would be very unhappy if *his own men* produced and dealt drugs.

Torture-

You apparently haven't found the torture room out in the Badlands yet. Definitely the Collective, definitely a lot more than a beating. Go find it and get back to me

You are right about the room - I have seen it. It was used for interrogations. There is even a datapad there that explains that the last "victim" was an Outcast pirate that captured and killed one of the Collective agents. Collective wanted to learn about their friend, as they hoped to release her.

It does not surprise me that interrogation room looks scary - actually that is the whole point. You are right that it is another example where Collective agents gave a thorough beating to someone - but once again, it was administered to Outcast criminal rather than to civvies. So it is still a bit better in my eyes than what Outcast do.

Vehn Terev is a traitor and a spy and admits it. By the laws of war he can be killed on the spot even outside of pirate colonies.

Uh... What law of war? Is there some intergalactic law that binds Milky Way species and Angara alike? Is it some custom on Earth that government of one country is allowed to kill subjects of another country because they broke some laws or regulations in this other country? Has Vehn Terev broken any of the Kadara laws? Or has the Resistance or Moshae herself - the only parties that were betrayed - asked for Vehn Terev to be killed?

Theoretically she could turn him over to Aya, but she doesn't have a map and the local Angara want Aya to But Out (see Kedara intel in Resistance HQ).

Uh... That is really, really stretched. Sloane know about Resistance, and actually Ryder himself/herself is eager to take Vehn Terev to Aya. So... Nope, there is no reason NOT TO give Vehn Terev to the Resistance.

Her final option is to give him to a representative of a government she is still more or less at war with who shows up and promptly demands she hand him over.

As far as I can tell Sloane is only at war with the Kett. And possibly with the Nexus...

Note: if a "him" wanted to go in shooting it was probably Kandros not Sloane, as Sloane is a "her".

English is not my first language. I am trying really hard to use it proficiently, but it happens from time to time that I fail. Perhaps I was a bit too emotional about my previous post, and thus forgot about the proper grammar. What I meant was that Tann and Addison had to stop Sloane from jettisoning first rebels on the Nexus.

Guerilla War-

Every Guerilla organization claims it either is an independent country or government or represents an independent country or government.

Collective does not.

The Collective and the Outcasts pretty much seemed equal military-wise, and I doubt you will find many people who would buy the idea that the Outcasts are vastly more powerful than the Collective.

You are mainly right. While Collective started weak, by the time Ryder visits Kadara it has grown, and seems to rival Outcasts in this aspect. So yes: it started weaker, but then it has grown. Which is just another proof of how much exiles must hate Sloane's dictatorship.

High Noon/Base-

Robin Hood has never shot the Sherriff in the back in any portrayal I've seen.

There is a nice serie by Angus Donald, in which Robin Hood seems almost to be a head of mafia.

But You are right.

So let me give You another example: Han Solo shot Greedo in a "treacherous" way, which is even more evident in the original (not enhanced) version of "New Hope". Is Han Solo so bad?   ;-)

Fewer people know the story of when David grew up, became king, and had an adult son of his own. (...) I feel like somewhere in there is an analogy to Reyes

It is a nice parallel, but I believe it matches Spender rather than Reyes. Do You rally think that Reyes stops Sloane from helping others? Like, I do not know... From beating civvies and selling drugs?   ;-)

@ViViD_Prime

@CasperTheLich

actually her betrayal was justified she had almost solved the uprising only to be blind sided by management by her own words :D

It is a bit more complex.

Sloane went to Calix to "negotiate" without informing Tann or Addison or Kesh - or literally anybody - about the fact. Her disappearance was one of the reasons why Nexus leaders got even more nervous (You know, Sloane was a leader of Nexus security, and it was moments after a clash between Rebels and Nexus forces), and so they decided to act immediately. And I would say that Sloane was very far from actually succeeding in negotiations. True, Calix was willing to speak to her, but not to surrender. Actually it was the other way around: Calix had almost persuaded Slaone. Or, well, actually he HAD persuaded Sloane. He suggested to dismiss Tann and Addison, and to give Nexus to Sloane. Sloane was considering his offer, oblivious to the fact that others (including Nexus security) may not be too happy with the solution. But even so, the proposal was never forwarded to the Nexus leaders.

When Morda and her warriors appeared, Sloane suggested to Calix to give up as she believed that Rebels stand no chance against Nakmor clan. Calix rejected and attacked the approaching Krogans. Then when fight started, Morda clearly suggested Sloane to get back "to the right side". In this very moment Sloane betrayed the Nexus, and sided with the Rebels.

So, uh... It was like a full-fledged betrayal to me.

Can Reyes do this?

So, all your argument is invalid. PUUU-HOHOHO

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@Kondaru wrote:

@jpcerutti1

If I don't shoot him I am no more or less an ally than I ever was AND all I did was prevent him from killing Sloane. The 'war' that follows is all on him/them - as is any cleanup action if Sloane dies. I can't claim credit for shortening any bloodshed - nor do I get the blame if blood flows. Not my war to start or stop.

You are absolutely right - from Ryder's perspective. From perspective of Collective agents: You just decided that many more of them will die in a war that could have been avoided (without Sloane Outcasts surprisingly easily disperse). So when You visit Collective's hidden base again they are fully aware that probably more then half or them will die because of Your decision. Is it surprising that they believe You to be their enemy?

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Heh. They never thought I was a potential ally, so, no. I did not find them continuing to shoot at me on sight disingenuous. I found it harder to believe they were shooting at me regularly while they were trying to convince me they were the side to pick over Sloane. I fail to see why they decided that would be an effective recruitment tool. 🙂

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

Heh. They never thought I was a potential ally, so, no. I did not find them continuing to shoot at me on sight disingenuous. I found it harder to believe they were shooting at me regularly while they were trying to convince me they were the side to pick over Sloane. I fail to see why they decided that would be an effective recruitment tool. 🙂

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Uh... Perhaps they were... You know... Presenting their guns to You. Just to display how worthy they are, and how well armed. Probably they were not gunning for You, it is just that their *aim* was lacking... But... Well, uh... Your Ryder is still alive... So *seemingly* they were not really trying to kill him/her, right? Right...   😇 😃

Yes, I find it a bit hilarious that both Outcasts and Collective random mobs are automatically attacking Ryder in badlands. It is obviously for gameplay purpose, and Devs put some really odd comments in-game to "explain" the fact (like that "badlands are free to all" or something). It is quite similar to the mages/templars thing in DAI on the first open world map (Hinterlands), but I still believe it made much more sense in DAI than it makes in MEA.   :-(

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@Kondaru wrote:

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

Heh. They never thought I was a potential ally, so, no. I did not find them continuing to shoot at me on sight disingenuous. I found it harder to believe they were shooting at me regularly while they were trying to convince me they were the side to pick over Sloane. I fail to see why they decided that would be an effective recruitment tool. 🙂

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Uh... Perhaps they were... You know... Presenting their guns to You. Just to display how worthy they are, and how well armed. Probably they were not gunning for You, it is just that their *aim* was lacking... But... Well, uh... Your Ryder is still alive... So *seemingly* they were not really trying to kill him/her, right? Right...   😇 😃

Yes, I find it a bit hilarious that both Outcasts and Collective random mobs are automatically attacking Ryder in badlands. It is obviously for gameplay purpose, and Devs put some really odd comments in-game to "explain" the fact (like that "badlands are free to all" or something). It is quite similar to the mages/templars thing in DAI on the first open world map (Hinterlands), but I still believe it made much more sense in DAI than it makes in MEA.   :-(

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in dai i just figured it was the red lerium causing both the rogue templar and insane mages to massacre... ah, just about everybody, because i doubt raiding a few war ravaged farmers repeatedly would pay for enough lerium to fuel a coffee pot, let alone either side of that particular conflict. 

@Kondaru

Drugs-

Trust Reyes or don't, but when he is in charge if he wanted them gone...

This is not exactly true: Reyes never wanted to "govern". He is an opportunist, and he usually works with criminals (in a ~similar way that Vetra does).  He opposes Sloane, Roekaar fanatics, and other threats - but he is not truly a *vigiliante*. He is not interested in making laws, he is not interested in reducing crime. He simply dislikes when people are mistreated, when honest merchants and craftsmen cannot get rich, when society decays... And even so, it is probably only because poor society makes his illicit trade more difficult.

He is obviously not deprived of positive emotions and goals (after all he helped Dr. Nakamoto with his clinic, right?), but he is far from being a do-gooder, and he is DEFINITELY not a paragon of justice.

Reyes is not going to fight pirates, cannibals, or drug dealers unless they become a real threat (or unless they get rich themselves). It would not surprise me if he allowed some low-lives to produce and deal drugs. On the other hand I would be very unhappy if *his own men* produced and dealt drugs.

Your whole argument so far has been Sloane is a drug dealer, Reyes would never do such a thing, Reyes is solving problems because they hurt people, not because it makes him look good and Sloane look bad, Reyes has people tortured and killed because he's a good guy and they are bad guys, etc. etc. etc. If that is true, then he should be getting rid of the drug dealers, especially since they cause "people [to be] mistreated, ... honest merchants and craftsmen [to] not get rich, ... society [to] decay... "

Side note: I have yet to see Verta form a massive covert para-military criminal organization and try and take over control of at least one planet, for nefarious purposes or not. Reyes and Palpatine don't want to govern, but they will do it because it is "necessary" and possibly "the people demand it"😉👿

Guerilla War-

Every Guerilla organization claims it either is an independent country or government or represents an independent country or government.

Collective does not.

Who is in charge when Sloane dies then? Nevertheless, the Collective recruiter does sell them as a large scale criminal enterprise, so if you want to go that route it is not a political uprising but a gang war, and there is no moral superiority or justification to be found, just thugs struggling to control money and power.

Torture-

You apparently haven't found the torture room out in the Badlands yet. Definitely the Collective, definitely a lot more than a beating. Go find it and get back to me

You are right about the room - I have seen it. It was used for interrogations. There is even a datapad there that explains that the last "victim" was an Outcast pirate that captured and killed one of the Collective agents. Collective wanted to learn about their friend, as they hoped to release her.

It does not surprise me that interrogation room looks scary - actually that is the whole point. You are right that it is another example where Collective agents gave a thorough beating to someone - but once again, it was administered to Outcast criminal rather than to civvies. So it is still a bit better in my eyes than what Outcast do

Ripping out fingernails and blowtorches are generally considered torture where I come from, I'm sorry if that isn't true for you. They have been doing this a lot, to a lot of people and mostly stopped this time to go escape an Outcast patrol. Granted, beating civvies is uncool, but the only times I remember seeing it happen was when prisoners were being rounded up for exile, so there is a decent chance that the ones being beaten were resisting arrest

Also, on behalf of Outcast Command, The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves!

Fewer people know the story of when David grew up, became king, and had an adult son of his own. (...) I feel like somewhere in there is an analogy to Reyes

It is a nice parallel, but I believe it matches Spender rather than Reyes. Do You rally think that Reyes stops Sloane from helping others? Like, I do not know... From beating civvies and selling drugs?   ;-)

Do I think Reyes goes up to people and tells them things like "Hey, don't ask Sloane to help your (druggie) brother. She doesn't care, but I'll see what I can do" or " Don't ask Sloane to deal with these murders. She's too busy, but I'll look into it", etc.? Yeah, I think he might. Plus, people were starting to blame the Rokaar murders on the Collective, and that's bad PR

Her final option is to give him to a representative of a government she is still more or less at war with who shows up and promptly demands she hand him over.

As far as I can tell Sloane is only at war with the Kett. And possibly with the Nexus...

[Facepalm] And Ryder represents/works for whom?

Theoretically she could turn him over to Aya, but she doesn't have a map and the local Angara want Aya to But Out (see Kedara intel in Resistance HQ).

Uh... That is really, really stretched. Sloane know about Resistance, and actually Ryder himself/herself is eager to take Vehn Terev to Aya. So... Nope, there is no reason NOT TO give Vehn Terev to the Resistance.

Kedara is a sovereign nation that declared its independence from Aya and the Resistance BEFORE the exiles arrived. The Resistance is trying to infiltrate Kedara, but pretty much everyone is telling them to go to hell. Ryder works for the Nexus, who the exiles declared independence from. So what exactly is Sloane's motivation to favor them over her own citizens?

Vehn Terev is a traitor and a spy and admits it. By the laws of war he can be killed on the spot even outside of pirate colonies.

Uh... What law of war? Is there some intergalactic law that binds Milky Way species and Angara alike? Is it some custom on Earth that government of one country is allowed to kill subjects of another country because they broke some laws or regulations in this other country? Has Vehn Terev broken any of the Kadara laws? Or has the Resistance or Moshae herself - the only parties that were betrayed - asked for Vehn Terev to be killed?

Ummm... yes to pretty much all of it. The Geneva Conventions are international agreements signed by pretty much every nation on Earth and represent the laws of war for humanity. The Red Cross/Crescent have a lot of information on them on their website. Undoubtedly the Citadel Council had their own version, but it is unlikely to be significantly different. The Angara probably had something similar as well, but it has probably been lost due to the Scourge and the Kett. Nevertheless, the Resistance recognized his actions as being punishable by death.

If you go to another country you are subject to their laws and punishments, even execution, although your own government will often work to try and limit those punishments or get you sent home. North Korea is currently arresting Americans, probably for being American, but charging them with breaking the law, so, legally, there is nothing the US can do about it.

Vehn Terev is a spy and a collaborator serving the kett, which makes him punishable in Kedara, where the kett are the enemy. He is an officer operating without uniform in a foreign nation without that nation's permission, which makes him a spy and punishable by execution. He has also targeted a figure who belongs to all Angara, regardless of nation of residence, much like the Pope or Queen of England, and is thus arguably punishable by any nation that can catch him by virtue of his being an enemy of Angara-kind.

Just as a note, Evfra was trying to bring Vehn Terev home, execute him, and sweep everything under the rug, kind of like Sloane gets accused of doing, except the Moshe busts him and rubs it in his face

High Noon/Base-

Robin Hood has never shot the Sherriff in the back in any portrayal I've seen.

There is a nice serie by Angus Donald, in which Robin Hood seems almost to be a head of mafia.

But You are right.

So let me give You another example: Han Solo shot Greedo in a "treacherous" way, which is even more evident in the original (not enhanced) version of "New Hope". Is Han Solo so bad?   ;-)

I love Han Solo, but for most portrayed as being self-centered and ruthless for most of a New Hope.

I would also argue there is a difference between looking a guy in the eye who has tracked you down and has a gun pointed at you and shooting him is a lot different than inviting him to the cantina and having Chewy hiding in the corner waiting to shoot him in the back

i have to say, just about everyone in this thread is stretching a lot of stuff to fit their solution to the reyes/sloane civil war mess. i think i've been fairly reasonable, though we usually don't have the faculties to make such judgments about ourselves... i could be stark raving mad and just not realize it. 

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

i have to say, just about everyone in this thread is stretching a lot of stuff to fit their solution to the reyes/sloane civil war mess. i think i've been fairly reasonable, though we usually don't have the faculties to make such judgments about ourselves... i could be stark raving mad and just not realize it. 

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Given we are 157 frequently extensive posts deep in an argument over which semi-minor bad guy is more good we're probably all stark raving mad. Just marshal your arguments and keep having fun.

Admittedly, if the devs culled a bunch of posts from this thread and used them for random discussions on the Nexus, especially around Tann and Addison, I think it would be hilarious, especially if Tann and Addison got mad about it and started yelling at their minions or the pathfinders to shut up.

@fudgietroll

Your whole argument so far has been Sloane is a drug dealer, Reyes would never do such a thing,

I beg Your pardon: could You please quote me the sentence where I stated something like that? I really do not want to take it personal, but I hate it when people put something into my mouths that I have never said. Please, don't do that.

And once more: I see no proof that Reyes became a drug dealer, which is the important part. "Not preventing others from dealing drugs" is much different from "profiting from drugs".

Reyes is solving problems because they hurt people, not because it makes him look good and Sloane look bad

And I still say that Reyes is solving many problems because they hurt people, without need to be *accounted* for them. Roekaar murders, Dr. Nakamoto's clinic, allowing Keema Dohrgun to rule over Kadara. At the same time I was always admitting that Reyes is a rogue, and that he is mainly interested in himself.

Once again, I would appreciate if You checked my previous posts.

Reyes has people tortured and killed because he's a good guy and they are bad guys

Uh... Never said that Reyes was truly a good guy, but I certainly stated that I had seen no proves of him ever going against anyone but bad guys. Could You please point me to any contradiction in my posts?

If that is true, then he should be getting rid of the drug dealers

No, why? I believe myself to do do some good deeds, like helping others in their problems, some charity from time to time, I have a work that is strongly (though indirectly) oriented on saving lives... But even though I hate drugs I have no intention on going out at night and fighting drug dealers.

DO YOU actively fight drug dealers?

especially since they cause "people [to be] mistreated, ... honest merchants and craftsmen [to] not get rich, ... society [to] decay... "

And he aids the society in many ways - probably because of a strong mix of selfless and selfish reasons. It doesn't mean that he needs to turn into Ryder and help every grandma in Andromeda to take her cat down from a tree.

Reyes and Palpatine don't want to govern

Uh... PLEASE, do watch Star Wars again. Palpatine starts as Supreme Chancellor and turns into Emperor. How can You say he doesn't want to govern?  🤨

but they will do it because it is "necessary" and possibly "the people demand it"

Uh... PLEASE, do play Mass Effect Andromeda again. Reyes has never governed anything other than Collective, and even there he was more of a secret leader than actual governor. And Collective itself was never about governing anything.

Nevertheless, the Collective recruiter does sell them as a large scale criminal enterprise, so if you want to go that route it is not a political uprising but a gang war, and there is no moral superiority or justification to be found, just thugs struggling to control money and power.

Hm... Perhaps I am simply eager to perceive more shades of gray than You do. When one gang is outright in mistreating, torturing, killing, and terrorizing civvies, dealing drugs, and overthrowing governments; while the other gang is mainly oriented on smuggling, stealing from the rich, and actively clashes *only* with other powerful criminals to trim them to an "acceptable" level... Well, sure thing: I would prefer to have no gangs at all, but I *do* find the second gang to be much better and morally superior to the first one. Lesser of two evils, as many people said. The thing is that difference between those two evils is astronomical to me.

Ripping out fingernails and blowtorches are generally considered torture where I come from

Uh... Perhaps I need to replay some parts. Could You please tell me where You have seen ripping out fingernails and active use of blowtorches to torture people on Kadara? I am serious.

Also, could You please point me to any of my posts when I am telling that Collective restrains from torturing people? I am quite sure that I was always telling that Collective is simply more careful in selecting *whom* to torture. Collective agents torture Outcasts who are "brave" enough to kidnap, to mob on civvies, and to torture others themselves. Outcasts are not so picky.

They have been doing this a lot, to a lot of people

While I find it possible - even probable - that they indeed tortured a lot of *Outcasts*, there is no actual *proof* on that. Once again, interrogation room NEEDS to LOOK scary - that's the point. Blood was from many individuals, but it doesn't mean that it came from interrogated prisoners.

And once again, PLEASE accept that You are defending a moot point: I did admitted numerous times that both Outcasts and Collective do torture people.

Granted, beating civvies is uncool, but the only times I remember seeing it happen was when prisoners were being rounded up for exile, so there is a decent chance that the ones being beaten were resisting arrest

"Resisting arrest?" Do You even believe what You are saying?   😮

But OK... Broken bones because a common guy was too poor to pay a tax, and then wanted to avoid being arrested IN ORDER TO BE SENTENCED TO DEATH

vs.

ripped out fingernails because someone killed a dozen of Your colleagues, and then kidnapped Your girlfriend (and possibly knows where she is kept).

Right... I do not think that there is any need for me to comment on this AGAIN.

Do I think Reyes goes up to people and tells them things like "Hey, don't ask Sloane to help your (druggie) brother. She doesn't care, but I'll see what I can do" or " Don't ask Sloane to deal with these murders. She's too busy, but I'll look into it", etc.? Yeah, I think he might.

Well, there is still a slight difference between Reyes and Absalom: Sloane really doesn't care about exiles other than her own Oucasts. And if You meant that Reyes' sister was violated by Sloane's man? I don't know, there is nothing in-game about the fact. Perhaps we will learn in the sequel.

As far as I can tell Sloane is only at war with the Kett. And possibly with the Nexus...

[Facepalm] And Ryder represents/works for whom?

Uh... Nexus.

So?

You want me tell You why Sloane allows someone from Nexus to thread into her throne room? I guess that she believed Ryder to be a gutsy envoy, but I am definitely not trying to get into her head. A lot of what she does make no sense to me.

Theoretically she could turn him over to Aya, but she doesn't have a map and the local Angara want Aya to But Out (see Kedara intel in Resistance HQ).

Uh... That is really, really stretched. Sloane know about Resistance, and actually Ryder himself/herself is eager to take Vehn Terev to Aya. So... Nope, there is no reason NOT TO give Vehn Terev to the Resistance.

Kedara is a sovereign nation that declared its independence from Aya and the Resistance BEFORE the exiles arrived. The Resistance is trying to infiltrate Kedara, but pretty much everyone is telling them to go to hell. Ryder works for the Nexus, who the exiles declared independence from. So what exactly is Sloane's motivation to favor them over her own citizens?

Uh... But it was You who suggested that she had *no option* to. I just pointed to You that she had. Now You are telling me that Sloane had no reason to care about Aya or the Nexus. But if such is the case then she had ABSOLUTELY no reason to sentence Vehn Terev to death. Moshae is Aya.

So as far as I understand You are now more apt to acknowledge that Sloane murders people for petty reasons whenever it suits her? 😇

The Geneva Conventions are international agreements signed by pretty much every nation on Earth and represent the laws of war for humanity.

Geneva Convention was established in 1949 AD, and is officially supported by 196 countries. Human history counts at least 100'000 years, and there are currently about 206 recognized countries on Earth. The Convention is neither universal, nor we can have any expectations that other species would ever wish to adhere to it. Plus Sloane is as far from supporting Geneva Convention as she can be: please note that the Convention established protections for the wounded and sick and protections for the civilians in and around a war-zone. Kadara is one big war-zone.

Undoubtedly the Citadel Council had their own version

Why? ANYTHING to support that conclusion? Like, perhaps Citadel Counselors asking own Spectres (which are allowed to do things such as blowing buildings full of civilians - see Saren) to spare all the damaged Geths and to imprison them instead? Like using genophage on Krogans (it would be more like Hague Convention, but there were still many civvies between Krogans)?

If you go to another country you are subject to their laws and punishments, even execution

Sure thing, but only for crimes that I had committed in/against this country. Vehn Terev committed no such deed. As far as I can tell there were something like two laws on Kadara, and he had broken none of them.

Vehn Terev is a spy and a collaborator serving the kett, which makes him punishable in Kedara, where the kett are the enemy.

Nice, but untrue. When Vehn Terev comes to Kadara, he is no longer collaborating with Kett.

He is an officer operating without uniform in a foreign nation without that nation's permission

Technically, Vehn Terev is no longer working for the Resistance, so he is no longer a soldier. Hence he is no spy. Also Sloane does not sentences him to death because of him being a spy. She does so because some of her Angaran subjects believe him to be guilty of betraying Moshae.

He has also targeted a figure who belongs to all Angara, regardless of nation of residence, much like the Pope or Queen of England

Pope belongs to Catholics and is a head of own country. Just go ask Muslims. And I do not really see how Queen of England belongs to me or my countryman - she is a head of her own country.

and is thus arguably punishable by any nation that can catch him by virtue of his being an enemy of Angara-kind.

"Arguably" - definitely "arguably".

The only international laws that I can think of would be deportation and/or extradition.

I could even give another Bible parallel for Sloane sentencing Vehn Terev because of Angaran accusations, but I believe it could offend some people so I will refrain myself.

Just as a note, Evfra was trying to bring Vehn Terev home, execute him, and sweep everything under the rug, kind of like Sloane gets accused of doing, except the Moshe busts him and rubs it in his face

True. Are we discussing Evfra now? 😃

I would also argue there is a difference between looking a guy in the eye who has tracked you down and has a gun pointed at you and shooting him is a lot different than inviting him to the cantina and having Chewy hiding in the corner waiting to shoot him in the back

True enough.

I would say that Han used exactly the tactic You described *several times* in the movies ( like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIuKWhWzYis ), but You are mainly right that the scene in MEA is almost unique. Not in the idea of course, but in the execution. And I do doubt if You accept anything that only bases on a similar idea.

Admittedly, if the devs culled a bunch of posts from this thread and used them for random discussions on the Nexus, especially around Tann and Addison, I think it would be hilarious, especially if Tann and Addison got mad about it and started yelling at their minions or the pathfinders to shut up.

Now, THAT I would like to see!   😃

---

@CasperTheLich wrote:

i have to say, just about everyone in this thread is stretching a lot of stuff to fit their solution to the reyes/sloane civil war mess. i think i've been fairly reasonable, though we usually don't have the faculties to make such judgments about ourselves... i could be stark raving mad and just not realize it. 

---

I believe, in this case, simpler reasons work wonders. Reyes looks lame and Sloane looks like a badass maniac. :eahigh_file:

---

@CasperTheLich wrote:

i have to say, just about everyone in this thread is stretching a lot of stuff to fit their solution to the reyes/sloane civil war mess. i think i've been fairly reasonable, though we usually don't have the faculties to make such judgments about ourselves... i could be stark raving mad and just not realize it. 

---

I think a lot of us just feel guilty about how they went with it and have to do some justifying. The three options are:

1) I can let somebody, who called me honorable, get sniped - and prove she was wrong.

2) I can stop the sniping and let Reyes escape scott/sara-free. NOTHING good really comes of this - besides I didn't have to prove Sloane wrong.

3) I can stop the sniping and wound Reyes by shooting *him* in the back instead of letting him do that to Sloane.

I'm going to get an outpost regardless. No matter what you pick above there will be some self justifying afterwards.

Luckily, I like Sloane - so I only had to choose between two bad options instead of three. 😃

The appearance of the sniper instantly set me against Reyes.  Sorry mister smooth talker, you deserve the bullet to the back.

@Kondaru

First of all I must admit that I have a lot of fun with this debate, so thank you. I do apologize if I am not clear about making a sarcastic comment or restating some of your points as a counter argument. I'll work on that.

Your whole argument so far has been Sloane is a drug dealer, Reyes would never do such a thing,

I beg Your pardon: could You please quote me the sentence where I stated something like that? I really do not want to take it personal, but I hate it when people put something into my mouths that I have never said. Please, don't do that.

And once more: I see no proof that Reyes became a drug dealer, which is the important part. "Not preventing others from dealing drugs" is much different from "profiting from drugs".

Reyes is solving problems because they hurt people, not because it makes him look good and Sloane look bad

And I still say that Reyes is solving many problems because they hurt people, without need to be *accounted* for them. Roekaar murders, Dr. Nakamoto's clinic, allowing Keema Dohrgun to rule over Kadara. At the same time I was always admitting that Reyes is a rogue, and that he is mainly interested in himself.

Once again, I would appreciate if You checked my previous posts.

Reyes has people tortured and killed because he's a good guy and they are bad guys

Uh... Never said that Reyes was truly a good guy, but I certainly stated that I had seen no proves of him ever going against anyone but bad guys. Could You please point me to any contradiction in my posts?

I understand that you don't want to be misquoted, so I went through your previous posts and here is what I have so far, as I am too tired to look for more tonight. I apologize if they don't represent what you were thinking, but they seemed to fit the question at hand:

On Sloane:

- is a drug lord PG3
At the same time You do *know* how cruel, petty, dishonest, and delusional drug lord Sloane is. PG 9
You expect a bully, sadist, satrap, murdered, drug lord, AND a fool who BLINDLY hates me and my people... PG9
she just wants to grow rich by bleeding others to death and offering nothing in exchange (like there are some Ketts remaining on the planet? WHO CARES? Collective is killing my elite Outcasts? WHO CARES? Exiles are dying in the badlands? WHO CARES? I can sell drugs to my subjects? YES, PLEASE). PG 9
And how about drugs? Do You believe poison to be worse than drugs? PG 12

On Reyes as nice/good guy:

- encourages trade and cooperation (even if only in public) PG 3
- protects people, e.g. from Roakars... PG 3
- ...and does not even ask to be acknowledged for it PG 3
- allows legal government to prevail (even if only in public) PG 3
- remains gentle and respectful to Ryder and the Initiative PG 3
- remains on good terms with Angara PG 3
- seems to be gentle and respectful to others (at least in public), excluding some of his bitter foes PG 3
- is successful in almost everything he does PG 3
- always pays his dues PG 3
- usually defeats own foes (such as Sloane) without jeopardizing others and avoiding excessive bloodshed if possible PG 3
- is *able* to forgive some of his foes (such as Kaetus) PG 3
- supports Initiative. PG 3
Uh... No? Reyes asked Ryder to gather proofs first. While Sloane is eager to pass sentences right-and-left disregarding actual guilt, Reyes wants Ryder to verify first if Roakar are to be blamed. They are - and thus Reyes takes immediate action against them. Fair and simple. PG 7
Reyes will not collect extortion fees, will not throw people out od Kadara Port to badlands stripped of all their possession, will not sanction beating people just for being poor, will not require Initiative to pay him, will not sell drugs (or at least there is no proof or suggestion that he will), will not sentence people to death to entertain minorities... PG 9
Reyes just wants to achieve something, and thus he protects the planet from all its enemies, like Sloane or Roekaar PG 9

The three bold lines are restating, with snarky asides, the arguments that you and other pro-Reyes posters are making that Reyes is anti-drugs and willing to take action to prevent harm to Kadarans, or to quote you "because they hurt people", this would then support the idea that if Reyes was truly this way he would get rid of the drug trade when he takes over. You yourself posted an extensive argument regarding the harm drugs cause to people and society earlier in this thread.

As for Reyes "problem solving" Reyes gets involved in the Angara killings after the Collective gets blamed and has Ryder prove it was Rokaar instread, the Collective supports both Dr Nakamura and the soup kitchen next door which loudly trumpets their good deeds (I believe you mentioned Sloane supporting herself with Bread and Circuses, Reyes has Bread down and maybe Circuses as well), and Keema Dohrgun is a Collective puppet. The altruism wears thin.

You have admitted that Reyes has both the identity of Reyes, who wouldn't profit from his good deeds, and the Charlatan, who would, and I have seen no evidence to back up your claim that Charlatan/Collective are not taking credit for the good things I do.

If that is true, then he should be getting rid of the drug dealers

No, why? I believe myself to do do some good deeds, like helping others in their problems, some charity from time to time, I have a work that is strongly (though indirectly) oriented on saving lives... But even though I hate drugs I have no intention on going out at night and fighting drug dealers.

DO YOU actively fight drug dealers?

If I own a large organization composed of mercenaries, assassins (yes they admit they have them), and smugglers and control the planet then yes I do fight them.

Also if I am Batman

especially since they cause "people [to be] mistreated, ... honest merchants and craftsmen [to] not get rich, ... society [to] decay... "

And he aids the society in many ways - probably because of a strong mix of selfless and selfish reasons. It doesn't mean that he needs to turn into Ryder and help every grandma in Andromeda to take her cat down from a tree.

This is just me quoting you like you asked to help illustrate the previous point I was trying to make. Feel free to reply in kind. Also not sure how eliminating drug problems is on the same scale as getting a cat out of a tree.

Reyes and Palpatine don't want to govern

Uh... PLEASE, do watch Star Wars again. Palpatine starts as Supreme Chancellor and turns into Emperor. How can You say he doesn't want to govern?  🤨

but they will do it because it is "necessary" and possibly "the people demand it"

Uh... PLEASE, do play Mass Effect Andromeda again. Reyes has never governed anything other than Collective, and even there he was more of a secret leader than actual governor. And Collective itself was never about governing anything.

This bit was me comparing your view on Reyes' desire to rule with Palpatine's public statements on the subject as he rises from Senator to Chancellor to Emperor. Your replies here fit well with my argument.

Nevertheless, the Collective recruiter does sell them as a large scale criminal enterprise, so if you want to go that route it is not a political uprising but a gang war, and there is no moral superiority or justification to be found, just thugs struggling to control money and power.

Hm... Perhaps I am simply eager to perceive more shades of gray than You do. When one gang is outright in mistreating, torturing, killing, and terrorizing civvies, dealing drugs, and overthrowing governments; while the other gang is mainly oriented on smuggling, stealing from the rich, and actively clashes *only* with other powerful criminals to trim them to an "acceptable" level... Well, sure thing: I would prefer to have no gangs at all, but I *do* find the second gang to be much better and morally superior to the first one. Lesser of two evils, as many people said. The thing is that difference between those two evils is astronomical to me.

Hm...missed the bit about overthrowing governments, unless you count Nexus or the Kett. I'm going to kind of lump mistreating and torturing together as beating on non-paying citizens and mutilating some criminals as punishment (like many Middle Eastern countries do). Killing probably breaks into two categories, executions for being criminals/kett and exile. This part is tricky, as conversations with the guard in the upper slums guard shack and the Warden indicate that the slums are for the people who don't pay protection and only the really bad/overconfident get sent to the Badlands, yet the girl who got accidentally booted wound up out there.

On the other side of the scale are people willing to engage in full scale torture, smugglers, assassins for hire, mercenaries willing to attack and slaughter innocents for money (ask the Collective recruiter), and are willing to eliminate any and all competition, and are ruled by a mysterious figure who answers to no one and has total authority of life or death over everyone, no trials or justifications offered.

And I Know, "anything sounds bad when you say it with THAT attitude"😛😉

Ripping out fingernails and blowtorches are generally considered torture where I come from

Uh... Perhaps I need to replay some parts. Could You please tell me where You have seen ripping out fingernails and active use of blowtorches to torture people on Kadara? I am serious.

Also, could You please point me to any of my posts when I am telling that Collective restrains from torturing people? I am quite sure that I was always telling that Collective is simply more careful in selecting *whom* to torture. Collective agents torture Outcasts who are "brave" enough to kidnap, to mob on civvies, and to torture others themselves. Outcasts are not so picky.

They have been doing this a lot, to a lot of people

While I find it possible - even probable - that they indeed tortured a lot of *Outcasts*, there is no actual *proof* on that. Once again, interrogation room NEEDS to LOOK scary - that's the point. Blood was from many individuals, but it doesn't mean that it came from interrogated prisoners.

And once again, PLEASE accept that You are defending a moot point: I did admitted numerous times that both Outcasts and Collective do torture people.

The guy in the torture room had his fingernails ripped out and there was a blowtorch among the "torture tools" on the wall. You often refer to beatings rather than torture when referring to the activities of the Outcasts and Collective. I am making a small distinction between beatings and torture.

A beating would refer to striking a person with appendages or blunt objects as a show of anger or attempted dominance, and both sides do this.

Torture would refer to intentionally inflicting maximum pain or bodily harm in order to coerce someone to provide intelligence, and the Outcast being tortured indicates Sloane doesn't sanction such activities.

I'll admit that I can't prove it happened more than once, but based on the interrogation/body, it probably did.

Granted, beating civvies is uncool, but the only times I remember seeing it happen was when prisoners were being rounded up for exile, so there is a decent chance that the ones being beaten were resisting arrest

"Resisting arrest?" Do You even believe what You are saying?   😮

But OK... Broken bones because a common guy was too poor to pay a tax, and then wanted to avoid being arrested IN ORDER TO BE SENTENCED TO DEATH

vs.

ripped out fingernails because someone killed a dozen of Your colleagues, and then kidnapped Your girlfriend (and possibly knows where she is kept).

Right... I do not think that there is any need for me to comment on this AGAIN.

Granted, probably going to die if sent to Badlands not slums, still not sure which is really the case

Not sure where the dozen dead colleagues and girlfriend came from. The interrogators seemed WAY too calm for the Outcast guy to have hurt someone they cared about.

Do I think Reyes goes up to people and tells them things like "Hey, don't ask Sloane to help your (druggie) brother. She doesn't care, but I'll see what I can do" or " Don't ask Sloane to deal with these murders. She's too busy, but I'll look into it", etc.? Yeah, I think he might.

Well, there is still a slight difference between Reyes and Absalom: Sloane really doesn't care about exiles other than her own Oucasts. And if You meant that Reyes' sister was violated by Sloane's man? I don't know, there is nothing in-game about the fact. Perhaps we will learn in the sequel.

Nice! Well Played! I would note though that it was his brother the Crown Prince (and previous next in line for the throne) not his dad he invited over, ambushed, and killed. Not to say he didn't have it coming, and dad eventually got over it.

Undoubtedly the Citadel Council had their own version

Why? ANYTHING to support that conclusion? Like, perhaps Citadel Counselors asking own Spectres (which are allowed to do things such as blowing buildings full of civilians - see Saren) to spare all the damaged Geths and to imprison them instead? Like using genophage on Krogans (it would be more like Hague Convention, but there were still many civvies between Krogans)?

Fair point, but it runs counter to your argument that Sloane has no justification for taking out Vehn Terev, given the breadth of actions that the Council accepts for the greater good.

If you go to another country you are subject to their laws and punishments, even execution

Sure thing, but only for crimes that I had committed in/against this country. Vehn Terev committed no such deed. As far as I can tell there were something like two laws on Kadara, and he had broken none of them.

Vehn Terev is a spy and a collaborator serving the kett, which makes him punishable in Kedara, where the kett are the enemy.

Nice, but untrue. When Vehn Terev comes to Kadara, he is no longer collaborating with Kett.

If you are no longer committing murder are you no longer a murderer? If you are no longer committing treason are you no longer a traitor? Not everything washes off just because you stop doing it. Also there is one law of Helios, recognized by all: there is no negotiation with the Kett, only blood. Vehn Terev is of the Kett faction and thus must die.

Theoretically she could turn him over to Aya, but she doesn't have a map and the local Angara want Aya to But Out (see Kedara intel in Resistance HQ).

Uh... That is really, really stretched. Sloane know about Resistance, and actually Ryder himself/herself is eager to take Vehn Terev to Aya. So... Nope, there is no reason NOT TO give Vehn Terev to the Resistance.

Kedara is a sovereign nation that declared its independence from Aya and the Resistance BEFORE the exiles arrived. The Resistance is trying to infiltrate Kedara, but pretty much everyone is telling them to go to hell. Ryder works for the Nexus, who the exiles declared independence from. So what exactly is Sloane's motivation to favor them over her own citizens?

Uh... But it was You who suggested that she had *no option* to. I just pointed to You that she had. Now You are telling me that Sloane had no reason to care about Aya or the Nexus. But if such is the case then she had ABSOLUTELY no reason to sentence Vehn Terev to death. Moshae is Aya.

So as far as I understand You are now more apt to acknowledge that Sloane murders people for petty reasons whenever it suits her? 😇

He has also targeted a figure who belongs to all Angara, regardless of nation of residence, much like the Pope or Queen of England

Pope belongs to Catholics and is a head of own country. Just go ask Muslims. And I do not really see how Queen of England belongs to me or my countryman - she is a head of her own country.

The Pope lives in the Vatican and is the head of all Catholics in every nation of the world. The Queen lives in England and is queen of more than a dozen independent countries. If you attack her and flee to another of her countries you can still be executed for treason because you have committed treason, even though you did it in an entirely separate country where the queen lives. The Moshe (a title) is of similar symbolic/religious significance to all angaran nations, even if they don't owe obedience to Aya, and Vehn Terev committed treason equally for all of these places.

and is thus arguably punishable by any nation that can catch him by virtue of his being an enemy of Angara-kind.

"Arguably" - definitely "arguably".

The only international laws that I can think of would be deportation and/or extradition.

I could even give another Bible parallel for Sloane sentencing Vehn Terev because of Angaran accusations, but I believe it could offend some people so I will refrain myself.

I'd love to know what it is, although if you were thinking Jesus you probably want to skip it unless you are prepared to claim, like the thief on the cross, that you and I deserve to die, but this man has done nothing wrong😇😉

Admittedly, if the devs culled a bunch of posts from this thread and used them for random discussions on the Nexus, especially around Tann and Addison, I think it would be hilarious, especially if Tann and Addison got mad about it and started yelling at their minions or the pathfinders to shut up.

Now, THAT I would like to see!   😃

Glad you liked it. Think we can raise enough interest EA actually does it? :eahigh_file:

All the same, I do understand that Reyes in not an angel, and that Collective is not made of honorable citizens. I definitely understand that Reyes can be perceived as snake in the grass - though I still find him preferable to Sloane. You know, as soon as I know that there is snake in the grass, and as soon as I *see* the snake, I really do prefer it over agitated bull charging on me time after time. Especially if I can use snake's venom to prepare some medicines...   ;-)

I can deal with the bull, but I don't want no mother F'n Snakes on my mother F'n Plane! 😉😃

i feel that most of my ryders made it very clear i was never even remotely on sloanes side, and the fact she forced me to cover her back, well... i have no qualms about letting her take a bullet in the back, at least i didn't have to pull the trigger. and like i said so many pages ago, during my entire stroll through kadara, i was trying to find a way to off sloane myself without having it blow up in my face, and well reyes did it for me.

First of all I must admit that I have a lot of fun with this debate, so thank you. I do apologize if I am not clear about making a sarcastic comment or restating some of your points as a counter argument. I'll work on that.

OK, sure. I am generally having a lot of fun as well, there are just some things that make me tense, and I do not want the situation to get out of hand. So thank You very much for Your understanding.

The three bold lines are restating, with snarky asides, the arguments that you and other pro-Reyes posters are making that Reyes is anti-drugs and willing to take action to prevent harm to Kadarans, or to quote you "because they hurt people", this would then support the idea that if Reyes was truly this way he would get rid of the drug trade when he takes over.

While I do agree with what some other people say, I can only stand firmly for what I have stated myself. So just to make it very clear: I am not so sure if Reyes is anti-drugs, though I do believe that there is no proof that he is pro-drugs. I really hope that I am right about him, and that he is not pro-drugs, otherwise – while I would still side with him – I would certainly stop to treat him as a potential ally.

You yourself posted an extensive argument regarding the harm drugs cause to people and society earlier in this thread.

And I support it: drugs are bad in my book.

As for Reyes "problem solving" Reyes gets involved in the Angara killings after the Collective gets blamed and has Ryder prove it was Rokaar instread

After the case is resolved there is absolutely no connection between the Collective and murders being resolved. So while murders themselves could have weakened Sloane a bit, there is no eminent benefit to the Collective. Seeking some ulterior motives behind Reyes’ involvement does not seem to me to be valid.

the Collective supports both Dr Nakamura and the soup kitchen next door which loudly trumpets their good deeds

I do not recall Dr. Nakamoto trumpeting anything. Also, after Initiative outpost is founded on Kadara Reyes does not ask Dr. Nakamoto to stay in the slums and to continue to work ‘for him’. I really cannot see how there could have been anything behind funding the clinic other than actual interest in helping people.

While I usually believe that charity is a good thing – even if done for petty reasons like self-promotion (it is because charity directly *helps* people) – I do understand why soup kitchen is a bit more controversial, so I have never mentioned it.

and Keema Dohrgun is a Collective puppet.

I do not really find Reyes as someone interested in governing or administrating. So while I do believe that Collective position will be strong with Keema Dohrgun, I am not 100% sure about the ‘puppet’ thing.

On the other hand – I am not denying the possibility.

The altruism wears thin.

It is similar for me to what I have mentioned about charity: even if ‘altruism’ is for selfish reason, it is still benefiting people. Which is what counts to me the most.

Sloane was somehow unable to be altruistic even for PR reasons.   ☹️

You have admitted that Reyes has both the identity of Reyes, who wouldn't profit from his good deeds, and the Charlatan, who would, and I have seen no evidence to back up your claim that Charlatan/Collective are not taking credit for the good things I do.

While my perspective is much different, it still means that Reyes helps people, where Sloane does not. As explained above: this is what actually counts for me the most.

If I own a large organization composed of mercenaries, assassins (yes they admit they have them), and smugglers and control the planet then yes I do fight them.

Also if I am Batman

There is a ‘false premise’ thing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise ) that makes Your answer a bit controversial. But OK, let me give You another example: when Outcasts are beating those poor sods on the streets of Kadara Port Ryder does not stop them. I know, because I really tried. Does it mean that Ryder is ‘pro-torture’ and thus just as bad as Reyes and Sloane? As far as I understand Your arguments: not stopping torturers is equal to supporting torturers.

And just a side-note: I was really angry with the game at that point. With overpowered SAM, there should have been numerous ways to deal with the problem without compromising Ryder, e.g. overloading Outcasts’ guns so they blew into their faces, or something.

>>> especially since they cause "people [to be] mistreated, ... honest merchants and craftsmen [to] not get rich, ... society [to] decay... "

>> And he aids the society in many ways - probably because of a strong mix of selfless and selfish reasons. It doesn't mean that he needs to turn into Ryder and help every grandma in Andromeda to take her cat down from a tree.

> This is just me quoting you like you asked to help illustrate the previous point I was trying to make. Feel free to reply in kind. Also not sure how eliminating drug problems is on the same scale as getting a cat out of a tree.

Yes, and I both confirmed and clarified my original intention behind the text. As for the cat, this time it was me trying to be sarcastic. I guess sarcasm not always plays for us as we would like it to.   🙂

This bit was me comparing your view on Reyes' desire to rule with Palpatine's public statements on the subject as he rises from Senator to Chancellor to Emperor. Your replies here fit well with my argument.

I just cannot see how they fit.

As far as I can tell Collective was never self-advertising it is there for ‘necessity’ or because of ‘people demanding it’. You Yourself declared that Collective was self-advertising as a criminal gang.

Palpatine was self-advertising himself to be a great leader/ruler and the only chance for peace in the galaxy (just to mention *few* of his promises).

Hm...missed the bit about overthrowing governments, unless you count Nexus or the Kett.

I mean taking Kadara from Anagara. You know it was not like Angara had been so happy with Sloane defeating Kett that they *asked* her to take over Kadara...

I'm going to kind of lump mistreating and torturing together as beating on non-paying citizens and mutilating some criminals as punishment (like many Middle Eastern countries do). (…) On the other side of the scale are people willing to engage in full scale torture, smugglers, assassins for hire, mercenaries willing to attack and slaughter innocents for money (ask the Collective recruiter)

While usually I would find ‘adhering to law’ to be a significant argument, the problem is that we are talking about moral superiority in this topic. Plus Sloane and Outcasts are explicitly admitting that there are no laws in badlands, and thus Collective torturing Outcast in the badlands is just as ‘lawful’ as Outcasts beating civvies in Kadara Port are.

As far as I recall what Collective recruiter tells, there is a blink-blink-not-denying-not-confirming type of answer about assassinations. We do not know about any such case, so actually we do not know if Collective is really willing to slaughter innocents – e.g. some real-life mafia families had some sets of internal rules binding them in this regard – though there is no denying that Collective has killers-for-hire on their payroll.

The thing is that *all* the Outcasts are murders to me, so in comparison Collective still pales with their professional assassins.

The guy in the torture room had his fingernails ripped out and there was a blowtorch among the "torture tools" on the wall. You often refer to beatings rather than torture when referring to the activities of the Outcasts and Collective. I am making a small distinction between beatings and torture.

OK, I do not recall the fingernails thing but I do believe You it was the case. For using blowtorch there is still no proof – it could be there to scare people rather than for actual use.

From my perspective beating is a type of torture. Sure, we can now start a discussion on ‘better’ and ‘worse’ methods of torturing people, but I really think it would be unnecessarily relative. If it matters to You, I am willing to admit that Collective is possibly more extreme in the way that they are torturing people.

Still: Outcasts are less picky as far as victims go, and they have less ‘valid’ reasons for torturing people at all.

A beating would refer to striking a person with appendages or blunt objects as a show of anger or attempted dominance, and both sides do this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture - ‘Torture (from the Latin tortus, "twisted") is the act of deliberately inflicting physical or psychological pain on an organism in order to fulfill some desire of the torturer or compel some action from the victim.’

I guess that Your definition of ‘beating’ matches ‘torture’ 100%.

Torture would refer to intentionally inflicting maximum pain or bodily harm in order to coerce someone to provide intelligence, and the Outcast being tortured indicates Sloane doesn't sanction such activities.

No, I believe that the above is a definition of 3rd degree interrogation techniques rather than of torture in general. And even then I would use some different wording.

As for the Outcast being tortured there was nothing about Sloane there. As far as I recall it was about some Outcast/pirate captain being bloodthirsty and usually going for direct kills.

Not sure where the dozen dead colleagues and girlfriend came from. The interrogators seemed WAY too calm for the Outcast guy to have hurt someone they cared about.

People react in many ways – there is no way for us to know what the interrogator felt.

You are right about the girlfriend thing – it is just a possibility. But it seemed clear to me that Collective cared about one of their agents, and was only interested in retrieving her – so she as well might have been a girlfriend of one of them. It doesn’t really matter – intentions are clear.

As for ‘dozen dead colleagues’ it is an educated guess: Outcast pirates with their captain confirmed to regularly kill prisoners probably have a lot of Collective agents on their hands.

Nice! Well Played! I would note though that it was his brother the Crown Prince (and previous next in line for the throne) not his dad he invited over, ambushed, and killed. Not to say he didn't have it coming, and dad eventually got over it.

You are absolutely right. And actually I doubt Reyes has a sister – he seems like an only child to me, basing on how self-centered he is.   🙂

Fair point, but it runs counter to your argument that Sloane has no justification for taking out Vehn Terev, given the breadth of actions that the Council accepts for the greater good.

Not really. My argument was that Vehn Terev has broken no Kadaran laws, so there was no reason for Sloane to prosecute him. If some the other parties believed Vehn Terev guilty, they could possibly ask for extradition – that’s it.

If you are no longer committing murder are you no longer a murderer? If you are no longer committing treason are you no longer a traitor?

Those are very nice questions, but the thing is that Vehn Terev has not murdered or betrayed anyone on Kadara. Actually Sloane is encouraging exiles to work as pirates, smugglers, and turncoats, so I really see no reason to prosecute Vehn Terev.

Also there is one law of Helios, recognized by all: there is no negotiation with the Kett, only blood. Vehn Terev is of the Kett faction and thus must die.

Hm… I would not be so quick about this one universal law, but I guess You are mainly correct. And I would probably accept the fact if this was the reason for which Sloane prosecutes Vehn Terev. But this is not this reason.

The Pope lives in the Vatican and is the head of all Catholics in every nation of the world. The Queen lives in England and is queen of more than a dozen independent countries. If you attack her and flee to another of her countries you can still be executed for treason because you have committed treason, even though you did it in an entirely separate country where the queen lives.

I do not think that Catholics living in Saudi Arabia would be allowed to kill recognized Pope murderer if he committed the deed somewhere else, and then tried to hide in Saudi Arabia. I am quite sure the killer would be captured and extradited to the country where the murder took place. And if the killer tried to hide on ISIS territory then we could not even hope for extradition.

As for Queen of England, sure there are quite a few countries that acknowledge her as their own, but there are many-many more that do not. As far as I understand Sloane does not recognizes Moshae to be her superior – or even her subject.

Glad you liked it. Think we can raise enough interest EA actually does it? :eahigh_file:

86 XP on the topic at the moment. Taking into account how little interest EA/BW displays, and how slow they are to react, I am afraid that we need at least thrice as many. On the other hand if someone could points the idea to Devs on Twitter or something, perhaps that would work… 😃

I can deal with the bull, but I don't want no mother F'n Snakes on my mother F'n Plane! 😉😃

No argument with that – this is a personal thing, so all people ae more than entitled to their own opinions.   🙂

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@Kondaru/fudgietroll wrote:

If I own a large organization composed of mercenaries, assassins (yes they admit they have them), and smugglers and control the planet then yes I do fight them.

 

Also if I am Batman

There is a ‘false premise’ thing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise ) that makes Your answer a bit controversial. But OK, let me give You another example: when Outcasts are beating those poor sods on the streets of Kadara Port Ryder does not stop them. I know, because I really tried. Does it mean that Ryder is ‘pro-torture’ and thus just as bad as Reyes and Sloane? As far as I understand Your arguments: not stopping torturers is equal to supporting torturers.

And just a side-note: I was really angry with the game at that point. With overpowered SAM, there should have been numerous ways to deal with the problem without compromising Ryder, e.g. overloading Outcasts’ guns so they blew into their faces, or something.

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But "Also if I am Batman" IS funny.

Grazi for y'all's back and forth. I really enjoy reading it. 😃

i guess that would mean i'm the one playing the part of kesh, standing between addison & tann.

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

i guess that would mean i'm the one playing the part of kesh, standing between addison & tann.

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Ouch! Sucks to be Ryder. But at least we have Grampa Drack to back us up

Annnd now I'm thinking Hotel Transylvania. Are we sure Drack isn't an immortal vampire? It would explain so much....

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

But "Also if I am Batman" IS funny.

Grazi for y'all's back and forth. I really enjoy reading it. 😃

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Bitte, Bitte. Anytime 🥳

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

i feel that most of my ryders made it very clear i was never even remotely on sloanes side, and the fact she forced me to cover her back, well... i have no qualms about letting her take a bullet in the back, at least i didn't have to pull the trigger. and like i said so many pages ago, during my entire stroll through kadara, i was trying to find a way to off sloane myself without having it blow up in my face, and well reyes did it for me.

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As an aside, if you agree to just talk to her prisoner instead of freeing him she'll call you 'reasonable' instead of 'honorable' in the conversation to be her second/backup. If I end up retconning to go with Reyes, for whatever reason, I'll go that route. Just changing that single word makes it a little more palatable.

Call me good and I want to be good... or something. 🙂