I Like Sloane

@BlackAlpha66

So, you are saying ... you'd rather have Reyes ... writing the game script instead of those wrote it or Sloane? :eahigh_file:

@BlackAlpha66

Hey there! Welcome to the debate! As you have noted, a lot of this stuff has been hashed over before, but please add any new insights you may have. Logical fallacies, the use of popular culture references, and sheer speculation is encouraged, but you may use facts, rational arguments, and historical precedents if you so desire 🥳😃😉

Sloane never lifted a finger to help you, remember this. She keeps saying how much she hates the Initiative. If you do the "honorable" thing and save Sloane, she literally asks you for a "protection fee or else" when negotiating for the outpost. She continues to flood the streets with drugs. She continues to beat people up who don't pay up protection fees, and those who can't pay up, she sends them to die in the badlands. She lives in a throne room where she hosts parties while people outside are dying. She wants to be in charge. Drack tells you how she always had such tendencies, so she has a history with such things. All of this is a really big indicator that she only cares about herself and will take actions at the expense of others to stay in power. Therefore, she is not reliable, nor trustworthy.

To be fair, Sloane also doesn't care if you take drugs off the streets,or even necessarily that she put them there in the first place. This latter part is speculation, but given Sloane's general willingness to get in your face, and the fact that she doesn't bat an eye that you cut off an extremely profitable revenue stream, it does seem vaguely possible. Dr. Nakamoto blames her because he brought the issue to Sloane and then the drugs wound up on the street, but if she delegated the solution to someone like "Dr" asari face....

Anyway, one of Dr. Nakamoto's journal entries notes that he set up the clinic to seek redemption. Why? For creating the drug, or releasing it, or did he do something like Mordin, or Maelon? Big Out-There Conspiracy speculation, did he develop the drug with help from Reyes and then get mad when he was unable to get Sloane to shut it down? (there were both Collective and Outcast troops fighting for control of the lab)

Also, the Badlands are no longer a death sentence. The water is now useable, there are safe zones like the refugee refuge and the outpost to settle, and, based on conversations with the Warden, Outcast guards, and during the guy with a dancer crush mini-quest, people who don't pay protection may just wind up in the slums, unless they are really bad/want to leave.

The only party I saw was a town hall meeting with booze. I don't recall Drack telling me she wanted to rule, but I do remember she had issues with authority, but given the blatant disregard for authority that Alec, Ryder, and the Pathfinders (not to mention Shepard) have displayed, I don't think that we can fairly hold that against her.

Anyway, she is at war with the Nexus leadership and hates them. You represent the Nexus so she dislikes you. You support her, she supports you, although she still hates the Nexus leadership and is going to make them "pay" $$😃😉:eahigh_file:

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Reyes went through great trouble to help you. If you let Reyes kill her, all of the above problems stop. Like, you can actually go to the city and see it with your own eyes, the problems stop. On top of that, the Angaran government takes over, bringing stability and welfare for the inhabitants, something the inhabitants desperately need. This shows that Reyes is prepared to make compromises with others, it's not just all about him. The Initiative will get political browny points with the Angaran government, so the Initiative benefits too. Reyes said he wanted to show you his true self before announcing who he really is, but he didn't really want to lie to you and he apologizes for not being truthful sooner (his story is backed up by that Angara leader woman). Reyes says he wants peace and fair trade, which are promises he fulfills. So, he has shown integrity, goodwill towards all parties, and trustworthiness.

However, Reyes also mentions he will be pulling strings from the shadows. That might sound scary, and it's not ideal, but you must remember how much the inhabitants, the Angara, and the Initiative have benefited from his actions. Also keep in mind that Sloane was already doing the exact same thing and think about how hurtful Sloane's actions have been to everyone (except herself and her thugs). So, at the very least, if you see this situation as having to choose the lesser of two evils, Sloane is clearly the much bigger evil that has been hurting everyone, while Reyes is an evil who goes out of his way to make others benefit and he plays nice.

The Angaran government is a puppet. As well say that Vidkun Quisling brought stability and welfare for the inhabitants of Norway or Marshal Petain brought stability and welfare for the inhabitants of France. "he has shown integrity, goodwill towards all parties, and trustworthiness." vs "Reyes also mentions he will be pulling strings from the shadows." I may just have a nasty suspicious mind, but these statements seem to contradict each other. Plus, Sloane really doesn't seem to be pulling strings from the shadows, but rather just doing whatever she does out in the open.👿

Anyway, given the amount of torture and killing Reyes is behind it's hard to say he plays nice. He may not currently charge the Initiative rent, but he has exterminated all his competition (smugglers, outcasts, etc.) and really hasn't surrendered any of his actual power, no matter what he says. Along the way he has almost certainly eliminated all of the other founding members of the Collective (his ex being compared to Ernst Rohm).

Plus, if one has a nasty, suspicious mind, you might think that all those "helpful" missions you take part in with Reyes are simply just eliminating his competition and awkward witnesses. For example, the charlatan suckering the other smugglers into launching a suicide "ambush" of Reyes and Ryder. 👿

Also, the Rokaar still have contacts in the Resistance. Reyes is a Resistance operative known only by a code name and (presumably) operating mostly by dead drops. It would be easy to , as a "concerned Angara", provide the Rokaar with the identities of Angara who are pro-Milky Way (and presumably pro-Milky Way government, IE Sloane). When the Rokaar get out of control or the Collective starts taking heat on the matter the Rokaar can be exposed and eliminated before they can reveal the name of their Resistance contact. Luckily, when the need to go there is a sappy outsider just raring to help out and incidentally provide a nice dash of authenticity. 👿:eahigh_file:

That said, I just want to comment on how silly the writing of the final showdown was:

"Hey there, stranger. I know I've been treating you and everyone else like ***, but can you do me a really, really big favor? I'm going to this secret meeting, in this cave that is really hard to escape from, where people will surely want to kill me, and I need you to save my life. No, I won't take my most trusted body guards with me. You, stranger, will be the only thing that will stand in between me and my enemies. And you know what? I think I'll leave my shield right here, I probably won't need it... Let's go."

After Kaetus gets chunked Sloane has evidence it was an inside job. Since she doesn't know which of her men will shoot her in the back she turns to the local heavily armed Good Samaritan, who has worked with her before without taking a shot at her and even kept their mouth shut about the op. It's not perfect, but it's the best she's got, and if she can handle the Charlatan she can take down the Collective without too much danger. 

fudgietroll wrote:

Anyway, one of Dr. Nakamoto's journal entries notes that he set up the clinic to seek redemption. Why? For creating the drug, or releasing it, or did he do something like Mordin, or Maelon? Big Out-There Conspiracy speculation

Respectfully, you say yourself that you are speculating. If we speculate, we can make Ryder look like that German leader from WW2 and Sloane like the Pope. The lore strongly suggests the doctor wanted to turn the drug into medicine, but Sloane didn't let him.

fudgietroll wrote:

Also, the Badlands are no longer a death sentence.

It's still a lawless place full of murderers and monsters. But nevermind that. The bigger issue here is that she exiles people for not paying the bribes. She also bleeds them dry using drugs. She also beats them when they can't pay up - that's torture, remember?

fudgietroll wrote:

The only party I saw was a town hall meeting with booze.

I don't recall Drack telling me she wanted to rule, but I do remember she had issues with authority, but given the blatant disregard for authority that Alec, Ryder, and the Pathfinders (not to mention Shepard) have displayed, I don't think that we can fairly hold that against her.I don't recall Drack telling me she wanted to rule, but I do remember she had issues with authority, but given the blatant disregard for authority that Alec, Ryder, and the Pathfinders (not to mention Shepard) have displayed, I don't think that we can fairly hold that against her.

A town hall meeting? Please explain how that was a town hall meeting. They call it specifically a party.

Nobody cares she disregards authority. You are forgetting about the whole violent warlord thing she has going on. It's the violence that bothers people. She beats, tortures, extorts, raids, etc. Reyes tortures too. When you compare the two Sloane comes on top of being more violent.

fudgietroll wrote:

You represent the Nexus so she dislikes you. You support her, she supports you, although she still hates the Nexus leadership and is going to make them "pay" $$

Well, she gives you the whole spiel of "it would be a shame if somebody would wreck your outpost, but I can stop that from happening, for a price". Reyes just wants to do trade. So, which one sounds more trustworthy to you?

fudgietroll wrote:

The Angaran government is a puppet...

I may just have a nasty suspicious mind, but these statements seem to contradict each other.

Plus, Sloane really doesn't seem to be pulling strings from the shadows, but rather just doing whatever she does out in the open.

And yet stability was brought to the inhabitants. The beatings and extortion stopped. That in turn will have a positive effect on welfare, which is likely to increase prosperity of the city.

I don't see how facts can contradict each other. Reyes took steps, he did things to show he has integrity, goodwill towards all parties, and trustworthiness. Reyes also mentions he will be pulling strings from the shadows. They are things that happened. Whether you accept his trustworthiness is another matter. Sloane has done none of that.

(sarcasm) Wait, Sloane doesn't pull strings from the shadows? I think I missed the democratic committee that must approve her decisions. (/sarcasm) Whenever she has a plan, does she informs everyone on what that plan is? No, she does not, right? So, she does things in the shadows just as much as Reyes does. The difference between the two is that people don't know Reyes is one of the leaders in charge. That is what the writers mean when they said he does things from "the shadows".

fudgietroll wrote:

Anyway, given the amount of torture and killing Reyes is behind it's hard to say he plays nice.

The amount of torture... You seem to imply that the game tells us that Reyes does a lot of torture, while in reality, we simply have one case in which we know the collective tortured someone - one case. And how much torture and killing has Sloane done? She beats up all people who don't pay up, it's part of her thugs' policy. Additionally, we know that the beatings are mentioned a lot. So, that means the game tells us that Sloane tortures more than Reyes. More than that, Reyes targets criminals, while Sloane targets civilians.

fudgietroll wrote:

Along the way he has almost certainly eliminated all of the other founding members of the Collective

Plus, if one has a nasty, suspicious mind, you might think that all those "helpful" missions you take part in with Reyes are simply just eliminating his competition and awkward witnesses. For example, the charlatan suckering the other smugglers into launching a suicide "ambush"...

Well, you are speculating again. You are also ignoring the lore, which states the exact opposite. Go watch a video of that mission you are referring to. Nothing in the cutscenes supports what you are saying.

I feel like you are doing that a lot. You ignore the lore, you twist facts, so you can paint a picture that you want to see, rather than what actually is there given to us by the writers. Well, you are free to do so, but I prefer to stick to the lore.

fudgietroll wrote:

After Kaetus gets chunked Sloane has evidence it was an inside job. Since she doesn't know which of her men will shoot her in the back she turns to the local heavily armed Good Samaritan, who has worked with her before without taking a shot at her and even kept their mouth shut about the op. It's not perfect, but it's the best she's got, and if she can handle the Charlatan she can take down the Collective without too much danger. 

She doesn't know Ryder, she doesn't know if she can trust him, and for all she knows, Ryder could be in on the plan to kill her in that cave. Maybe it was Ryder who persuaded the guards. Sloane hasn't spent any time with Ryder. She hasn't talked to Ryder. She has no clue who Ryder is as a person. So, there's no reason for Sloane to trust Ryder. No matter how you turn it, it just doesn't fit. As I mentioned before, there's also the whole thing with her shield suddenly not working which is a thing that happens during many cutscenes, actually. The writing in this game is often lackluster.

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@BlackAlpha66 wrote:

She doesn't know Ryder, she doesn't know if she can trust him, and for all she knows, Ryder could be in on the plan to kill her in that cave. Maybe it was Ryder who persuaded the guards. Sloane hasn't spent any time with Ryder. She hasn't talked to Ryder. She has no clue who Ryder is as a person. So, there's no reason for Sloane to trust Ryder. No matter how you turn it, it just doesn't fit. As I mentioned before, there's also the whole thing with her shield suddenly not working which is a thing that happens during many cutscenes, actually. The writing in this game is often lackluster.

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Heck, if you go talk to Sloan directly before talking to Kaetus about 'helping' them, she informs you that sneaking around to plan an outpost that she will declare war on the Nexus. This is just after I finished tracking down the weapon caches being gathered by Outcasts in preparation to attack Pododromas and rescuing the wrongly evicted Exile from the cannibals.

I wish there was an option for me to put a bullet in Sloan's back during that High Noon scene.

Ehhhh, who's the monster now, eeeh, precioussss, who is that, eh?

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@PandaTar wrote:

Ehhhh, who's the monster now, eeeh, precioussss, who is that, eh?

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ok, i guess... just what am i supposed to be looking at here? i'm a bit lost. like survival training at the farm. 

@BlackAlpha66

I should introduce you to the 3 stages of Kedara Greif

Stage 1, Denial: There is no real question of good and bad to be made. It is all Black and White. Despite giving vague lip-service to Reyes being an imperfect guy, when you do your analysis you will treat him as a saint and Sloane is the Queen of Darkness

Stage 2, Bargaining: You have come to accept that both Sloane and Reyes are pretty bad people, but on the scale of badness the end justifies the means defence  and cosmetic differences between Sloane's rule and Reyes' allow you to let him come across as slightly better

Stage 3, Acceptance: The Reyes-colored glasses have come off. You realize that Sloane, while annoying at times, has never lied to you, manipulated you, tried to subvert you, or used you as a pawn. She is not inclined to like or trust you and she hates the council you represent, but she is willing to work with you to a degree from the start, although she will not be dictated to and would be just as happy if you weren't here. In literature terms, Captain Abraham Smollett

You also realize that Reyes HAS lied to you, manipulated you, tried to subvert you, and used you as a pawn. Despite the fact that he seems friendly and likeable you realize you have no grasp of his plans, ambitions, or what, if anything, he says is true. You are no longer able to truly trust his past actions or future cooperation and goals. In literature terms, Long John Silver

fudgietroll wrote:

Anyway, one of Dr. Nakamoto's journal entries notes that he set up the clinic to seek redemption. Why? For creating the drug, or releasing it, or did he do something like Mordin, or Maelon? Big Out-There Conspiracy speculation

Respectfully, you say yourself that you are speculating. If we speculate, we can make Ryder look like that German leader from WW2 and Sloane like the Pope. The lore strongly suggests the doctor wanted to turn the drug into medicine, but Sloane didn't let him.

First, would you please be more careful about syncing up quotes and replies? Your reply here could potentially apply to any part of the section of post you quoted from EXCEPT the part you actually quoted, unless you are using the sentence fragment at the end to, to quote you, "ignore the lore, ... twist facts, so you can paint a picture that you want to see, rather than what actually is there given to us by the writers"

Second, to reply to the quote, Dr. Nakamto's journal DOES say he is opening his clinic in hopes of earning redemption, just read it. The lore also says that Mordin opened his clinic seeking redemption for his role in the Genophage MK2, and Maelon opened his to seek redemption for his brutal biological experiments. So I would like to know why Dr. Nakamoto needs redemption

Third, to reply to your response, of course I'm speculating. We are all speculating, either that Reyes is being as truthful as possible with us or that he has lied to us and we no longer know what he is saying or has said is lies, manipulation, or simple truth. That being said, if I preface something with Big Out-There Conspiracy speculation, it means that I know that there is probably a 0.01% chance it is true, but it still is an interesting thought and vaguely plausible. Sometimes probability is less important than fun. As for comparing Reyes to Adolph, I just call it like he plays it. If it makes you feel better I compare Putin to Adolph too

fudgietroll wrote:

Also, the Badlands are no longer a death sentence.

It's still a lawless place full of murderers and monsters. But nevermind that. The bigger issue here is that she exiles people for not paying the bribes. She also bleeds them dry using drugs. She also beats them when they can't pay up - that's torture, remember?

fudgietroll wrote:

Anyway, given the amount of torture and killing Reyes is behind it's hard to say he plays nice.

The amount of torture... You seem to imply that the game tells us that Reyes does a lot of torture, while in reality, we simply have one case in which we know the collective tortured someone - one case. And how much torture and killing has Sloane done? She beats up all people who don't pay up, it's part of her thugs' policy. Additionally, we know that the beatings are mentioned a lot. So, that means the game tells us that Sloane tortures more than Reyes. More than that, Reyes targets criminals, while Sloane targets civilians.

fudgietroll wrote:

The only party I saw was a town hall meeting with booze.

I don't recall Drack telling me she wanted to rule, but I do remember she had issues with authority, but given the blatant disregard for authority that Alec, Ryder, and the Pathfinders (not to mention Shepard) have displayed, I don't think that we can fairly hold that against her.I don't recall Drack telling me she wanted to rule, but I do remember she had issues with authority, but given the blatant disregard for authority that Alec, Ryder, and the Pathfinders (not to mention Shepard) have displayed, I don't think that we can fairly hold that against her.

A town hall meeting? Please explain how that was a town hall meeting. They call it specifically a party.

Nobody cares she disregards authority. You are forgetting about the whole violent warlord thing she has going on. It's the violence that bothers people. She beats, tortures, extorts, raids, etc. Reyes tortures too. When you compare the two Sloane comes on top of being more violent.

Let's go down the line. If the Clintons run out of money, they may still be allowed to stay in New York City, but it won't be in the Uptown Penthouse they have now. And if they refuse to leave and the cops come to evict them and one of the Clintons goes and attacks a cop they will be forcibly taken down or even beat down. We know that the people getting beatdowns in Kedara Port are in the middle of getting evicted, so it is not a great stretch to assume they are getting pounded for resisting arrest, which would make this an excessive force or assault charge rather than torture. Given that you are apparently not counting the guy getting beaten in the cells of the Collective base as being tortured it would seem you accept this theory. The downside being you cannot then prove Sloane has tortured anybody

However, if you are running all the beatings and other tortures together and counting only proven instances then the count is 2 and 2, although Sloane does target civilians and one of Reyes' is significantly more brutal than any of the others. It is nevertheless significantly implied from observations, discussions, and evidence that evictees frequently get beatdowns, Collective prisoners all get beaten in their cells, and prisoners of every "friendly" race frequently get horrifically tortured by the Collective, and both of the latter situations invariably end in death. Reyes may target civilians as well. We know 1 of his victims was Outcast, and it is implied that most of the prisoners are Outcast as well, although, IIRC, 1 of them didn't have a uniform/exile armor

Both sides beat and raid. The Collective assassinates, and if torture is distinct from beating the Collective is the only ones proven to have used it. The Collective Representative literally states that they will work with the Nexus for a price, so both sides are extorting, although it may be more widespread from the Outcasts. The Drugs are your choice to keep or get rid of, as neither leader will get rid of them or complain if you do. I will point out that it is stated that the outcasts have been at least partially infiltrated by the Collective, and when you bring up the drugs to Reyes he gives the traditional movie bad guy "why are you making me kill you" sigh and makes a comment about Dr. Nakamoto's conscience. Not proof, but interesting. The Collective Representative also admits the Collective attacks innocents for a price, and has no scruples about its activities if its price is met.

My count on the competing warlords, Sloane: -4.5, Reyes: -7.5

A town hall meeting is where a politician gets in the same large room as a loud bunch of the general public and they throw problems at the politician and hope they stick. Add alcohol and you're getting pretty close to Sloane's party. There are lots of regular people rubbing arms with politicians, and political issues and dissents are being freely aired. The rest of the time we don't see Sloane partying, even at her party. Instead she seems to be trying to lead her people and fight her war in the style of Chris Pine's Captain James T Kirk

fudgietroll wrote:

After Kaetus gets chunked Sloane has evidence it was an inside job. Since she doesn't know which of her men will shoot her in the back she turns to the local heavily armed Good Samaritan, who has worked with her before without taking a shot at her and even kept their mouth shut about the op. It's not perfect, but it's the best she's got, and if she can handle the Charlatan she can take down the Collective without too much danger. 

She doesn't know Ryder, she doesn't know if she can trust him, and for all she knows, Ryder could be in on the plan to kill her in that cave. Maybe it was Ryder who persuaded the guards. Sloane hasn't spent any time with Ryder. She hasn't talked to Ryder. She has no clue who Ryder is as a person. So, there's no reason for Sloane to trust Ryder. No matter how you turn it, it just doesn't fit. As I mentioned before, there's also the whole thing with her shield suddenly not working which is a thing that happens during many cutscenes, actually. The writing in this game is often lackluster.

She's talked with Ryder on multiple occasions, hunted Kett with Ryder, Kaetus trusts Ryder, Ryder is a Good Samaritan, Ryder probably hasn't been on Kedara long enough to be recruited by the Collective, and she doesn't know who among her own troops she can trust. Ryder is her best shot. Plus, if she brings an army the Charlatan doesn't show.

fudgietroll wrote:

You represent the Nexus so she dislikes you. You support her, she supports you, although she still hates the Nexus leadership and is going to make them "pay" $$

Well, she gives you the whole spiel of "it would be a shame if somebody would wreck your outpost, but I can stop that from happening, for a price". Reyes just wants to do trade. So, which one sounds more trustworthy to you?

IIRC, Sloane says that you can plant an outpost, but if you do you have to pay protection, no threat involved. The Collective Representative says that they will work with the Nexus if the Nexus meets their price/conditions. Sounds about the same to me. To be fair I started over after 1.06 so it will be a while before I can personally double check this.

fudgietroll wrote:

The Angaran government is a puppet...

I may just have a nasty suspicious mind, but these statements seem to contradict each other.

Plus, Sloane really doesn't seem to be pulling strings from the shadows, but rather just doing whatever she does out in the open.

And yet stability was brought to the inhabitants. The beatings and extortion stopped. That in turn will have a positive effect on welfare, which is likely to increase prosperity of the city.

I don't see how facts can contradict each other. Reyes took steps, he did things to show he has integrity, goodwill towards all parties, and trustworthiness. Reyes also mentions he will be pulling strings from the shadows. They are things that happened. Whether you accept his trustworthiness is another matter. Sloane has done none of that.

(sarcasm) Wait, Sloane doesn't pull strings from the shadows? I think I missed the democratic committee that must approve her decisions. (/sarcasm) Whenever she has a plan, does she informs everyone on what that plan is? No, she does not, right? So, she does things in the shadows just as much as Reyes does. The difference between the two is that people don't know Reyes is one of the leaders in charge. That is what the writers mean when they said he does things from "the shadows".

...And the undesirables were sent to the camps...

It should also be noted that while there were generally bursts of freedom and prosperity in the wake of the Coalition overthrows of the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saddam Hussein in Iraq, as well as the various Arab Spring uprisings, most of these actions have received harsh criticisms that they simply removed something bad and ushered in something worse. Sloane is a known problem, Reyes is an unknown one

From the moment you land on Kedara you, and the initiative have been able to freely trade, Reyes hasn't changed that. Sloane is also just as peaceful towards the Initiative as Reyes is, protecting it and allowing (and possibly protecting) free passage from the slums to the outpost. The fact that Sloane charges rent whereas Reyes sells land he doesn't yet own for a handful of proverbial beads does not grant him any moral superiority.

From the Cambridge English dictionary, British definitions (Since Bioware is Canadian and uses British English)

pull strings

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

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@PandaTar wrote:

Ehhhh, who's the monster now, eeeh, precioussss, who is that, eh?

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ok, i guess... just what am i supposed to be looking at here? i'm a bit lost. like survival training at the farm. 

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I think it is a blonde woman dribbling another blonde woman.

The Angarian 'face' for Reyes actually says that she knows Reyes will listen to her, because Sloane never will. You have some very rose-tinted glasses there on Sloane the Hun.

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@arthurh3535 wrote:

The Angarian 'face' for Reyes actually says that she knows Reyes will listen to her, because Sloane never will. You have some very rose-tinted glasses there on Sloane the Hun.

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The Angaran front for Reyes is a little biased.

Kedara was, I thought, the Angaran version of Mos Eisley to begin with and Sloane's takeover as much to do with her ability to kill Kett as anything else. If there was a power struggle when she stepped in it must not of been particularly bloody since the Angara don't leave and she's the Angaran rep to the port. She's in it for herself, not the better interests of the Angara, and I wouldn't trust her evaluation to be third party unbiased. 🙂

She just cut a deal to be the "boss" - and to be the secret face of Reyes in Kadara port. He doesn't trust her either. Somebody is putting bugs all over the port.

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

The Angaran front for Reyes is a little biased.

Kedara was, I thought, the Angaran version of Mos Eisley to begin with and Sloane's takeover as much to do with her ability to kill Kett as anything else. If there was a power struggle when she stepped in it must not of been particularly bloody since the Angara don't leave and she's the Angaran rep to the port. She's in it for herself, not the better interests of the Angara, and I wouldn't trust her evaluation to be third party unbiased. 🙂

She just cut a deal to be the "boss" - and to be the secret face of Reyes in Kadara port. He doesn't trust her either. Somebody is putting bugs all over the port.

Nope, even the common Angarans are happy that she's in place, even if they know she works for the Charleton. She was Sloan's 'contact' with the Angara already. They only thing anyone thought Sloan was good for was killing Kett.

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@arthurh3535 wrote:

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

The Angaran front for Reyes is a little biased.

Kedara was, I thought, the Angaran version of Mos Eisley to begin with and Sloane's takeover as much to do with her ability to kill Kett as anything else. If there was a power struggle when she stepped in it must not of been particularly bloody since the Angara don't leave and she's the Angaran rep to the port. She's in it for herself, not the better interests of the Angara, and I wouldn't trust her evaluation to be third party unbiased. 🙂

She just cut a deal to be the "boss" - and to be the secret face of Reyes in Kadara port. He doesn't trust her either. Somebody is putting bugs all over the port.

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Nope, even the common Angarans are happy that she's in place, even if they know she works for the Charleton. She was Sloan's 'contact' with the Angara already. They only thing anyone thought Sloan was good for was killing Kett.

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Nope what? You think she is somehow impartial? I'm sure the Angara in Kadara are happy the sky is clear, the Kett taken care of, and an Angara is in "charge".... I don't hear them, including her, complain if Sloane stays put either though.

@fudgietroll

You got something factually wrong again: Sloane has lied to you, she does manipulate, and she has used you as a pawn. I can't be bothered to go into it because I don't feel like it will make a difference with you. Clearly, you do not look at them critically, so what's the point in discussing this further. Additionally, you just speculate a lot and it seems now I stepped on your toes when I tried to point that out.

So, I'll just say one final thing. Unlike you, I do not paint a rosy picture of either of them. Earlier, I simply told you how they compare and I pointed out fallacies in your logic (you keep insisting Sloane is better, doesn't manipulate, doesn't torture, etc, which is all false). But looking at it realistically, personally, I would've liked it if in that cave there would've been a Renegade option to shoot them both. Seeing as how that option wasn't there, we are forced to choose the lesser of the two evils, and if you count the amount of bad things they've done, Sloane comes on top - the fact she regularly tortures civilians is the biggest black mark that makes the largest difference, in my opinion.

BlackAlpha66 wrote:

@fudgietroll

You got something factually wrong again: Sloane has lied to you, she does manipulate, and she has used you as a pawn. I can't be bothered to go into it because I don't feel like it will make a difference with you. Clearly, you do not look at them critically, so what's the point in discussing this further. Additionally, you just speculate a lot and it seems now I stepped on your toes when I tried to point that out.

So, I'll just say one final thing. Unlike you, I do not paint a rosy picture of either of them. Earlier, I simply told you how they compare and I pointed out fallacies in your logic (you keep insisting Sloane is better, doesn't manipulate, doesn't torture, etc, which is all false). But looking at it realistically, personally, I would've liked it if in that cave there would've been a Renegade option to shoot them both. Seeing as how that option wasn't there, we are forced to choose the lesser of the two evils, and if you count the amount of bad things they've done, Sloane comes on top - the fact she regularly tortures civilians is the biggest black mark that makes the largest difference, in my opinion.

I did not that I have been away from Kedara, so if you have specific examples of Sloane lying to me, manipulating me, or using me as a pawn that I may have forgotten please elaborate them.

I will grant that it is unlikely that I will jump on the Reyes bandwagon no matter what you say, but it is a possibility worth pursuing, especially as we can have some fun debating along the way. A simple facet of life is that facts don't limit themselves to one conclusion, or OJ Simpson would have fried. Analyzing a set of is like building Legos or cooking on Masterchef, you take what you're given, add what you already have, and make something that is probably quite different from what your neighbor makes. In the absence of the full set of facts, differing conclusions based on the facts available are equally valid, although it is the heart of a good debate to challenge these conclusions point by point and look for factual errors. If your analysis is good this process will allow you to find flaws in your arguments, so you can change your arguments and correct the flaws, so if your view is worth holding a challenge will only strengthen it.

As a side note, if, on the off chance, people not acknowledging your views as the unquestionable truth is upsetting to you, it is better to work it out here over made-up people and situations than in the real world where someone could be hurt. I won't get upset if you get mad at me, although I will continue to challenge your conclusions.

Anyway, I do speculate a lot, for 2 reasons.

1) It's fun! "Nuff said.

2) There are so few situations where we have the full facts, so we take the pieces we have and fill in the gaps, EG speculation. This is especially true since a lot of the argument concerns who is better for the future, which we definitively don't know. But let's face it, charming rogues are nice, but the sarcastic grouch who is begrudgingly forced to work with you that provides the real emotional payout.

Anyway, if you want a successful refutation of my argument you will need to use specific examples of where I was wrong and/or lay out your argument so it can't be used against you. For instance, the way you laid out your torture argument I was easily able to reverse it and make Reyes come out to be the bad guy. Comparatively, when we were arguing about torture @Kondaru busted me and I had to change my argument, although neither of you have addressed my argument of police brutality/excessive force vs pre-planned/all-out torture.

Here's the thing. I don't like Sloan. More importantly my Scott Ryder doesn't like her either since I picked certain responses that lead to her acting like a crazed lunatic. ( I will note here that when I start my run through with Sara Ryder I'll be choosing the opposite responses and will like Sloan just fine... probably, heh.)

Sloan betrayed the very people she was supposed to protect - the Initiative leadership - deciding violence was a nifty way to get things done. Then sets herself up as a queen on Kadara. Hey she kicked the Kett out so why not? She treats her inner circle well but her kingdom is left to fend for itself for the most part. She gives lip service to the angara and treats them as second class citizens. And she's more than willing to go to war to keep her Kingdom, with the Collective, with the Initiative, with everyone if necessary.  My Scott finds her abrasive, self serving, vicious and short sighted. 

Reyes is having to survive in the same environment. He's smart about it, keeping out of sight since the second Sloan finds out about him she'd have him killed. What my Scott finds interesting is that it seems the Charlatan is doing some things that aid the disenfranchised.  Helping out a doctor in the slums with supplies. Directing the Pathfinder to a group of nasty Roekar who are killing everyone that isn't Roekar. Including the angara that are on Kadara into his group if they are interested. His sneaky mode of operation is to gather allies and most importantly to my Scott atm is that Reyes understands that war would mean extinction for the Milky Way galaxy people - definitely the humans. Killing off too many to sustain a viable population in Andromeda. 

What I find compelling is that we are given a choice between two strong characters who are anti-heros. There is no right answer here. Both of them realize that in order to survive they will have to work with the Initiative. What it boils down to for me is which one my Scott thinks he can work with and get to do things that benefit the plans of the Pathfinder. 

Since my current Scott is gay and finds the roguish Reyes appealing that's who I'm going with. 

Can't wait to see what happens when my Sara gets to Kadara and works with Sloan. So, kudo's to Bioware for giving me the opportunity to play a totally different game my next run through. 

i also think just about any ryder would have a vastly easier time dealing with reyes over sloane, because sloane seems far to impulsive, angry, violent, and oppressive, and a bit of a totalitarian dictator. you ever hear that saying: only a poor leader is forced to resort to fear and violence to maintain control? true reyes is a bit smarter, and is capable of operating with a good amount of discretion, though he doesn't seem unhinged like sloane (or at least she seems so to me). i'd rather have a sane snake then a raging sociopath at my back... and no, i'm not saying reyes is a snake at all. 

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

i also think just about any ryder would have a vastly easier time dealing with reyes over sloane, because sloane seems far to impulsive, angry, violent, and oppressive, and a bit of a totalitarian dictator. you ever hear that saying: only a poor leader is forced to resort to fear and violence to maintain control? true reyes is a bit smarter, and is capable of operating with a good amount of discretion, though he doesn't seem unhinged like sloane (or at least she seems so to me). i'd rather have a sane snake then a raging sociopath at my back... and no, i'm not saying reyes is a snake at all. 

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You're not a little bit jealous that Sloane gets to be a renegade Shep are you? 😃😇👿

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

You're not a little bit jealous that Sloane gets to be a renegade Shep are you? 😃😇👿

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lol, perhaps a bit. but, in ryder's place would you willingly work with a renegade shepard? i think i'd rather run and hide.

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

You're not a little bit jealous that Sloane gets to be a renegade Shep are you? 😃😇👿

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lol, perhaps a bit. but, in ryder's place would you willingly work with a renegade shepard? i think i'd rather run and hide.

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I work with Peebee don't I? I don't remember renegade Shep landing me by surprise in a volcano... and renegade Shep cutscenes *rock*.🙂

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

... and renegade Shep cutscenes *rock*.🙂

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just so long as we don't end up on the receiving end of those cut-scenes.

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

... and renegade Shep cutscenes *rock*.🙂

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just so long as we don't end up on the receiving end of those cut-scenes.

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If Renegade Shep didn't destroy me for putting a gun in her face I think my odds of survival are pretty good! 😉👿

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@Fierene wrote:

My Scott finds her abrasive, self servicing, viscous and short sighted. 

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Self servicing and viscous huh. I guess it's lonely at the top and has been for a while then. 💔

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@fudgietroll wrote:

If Renegade Shep didn't destroy me for putting a gun in her face I think my odds of survival are pretty good! 😉👿

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i'd say the odds of ren-shep ventilating your face in such a situation is about 80% or there abouts. those are odds i don't feel all that confident with facing.  

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

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@fudgietroll wrote:

If Renegade Shep didn't destroy me for putting a gun in her face I think my odds of survival are pretty good! 😉👿

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i'd say the odds of ren-shep ventilating your face in such a situation is about 80% or there abouts. those are odds i don't feel all that confident with facing.  

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How about your future odds if you don't get ventilated? As I choose the oddest times to be an optimist I tend to assume if Ren-Shep doesn't kill me for my impudence it means we are friends now. And let's face it, Ren-Shep does some scary stuff, but you're pretty safe if you're a friend.😇👍

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@fudgietroll wrote:

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@Fierene wrote:

My Scott finds her abrasive, self servicing, viscous and short sighted. 

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Self servicing and viscous huh. I guess it's lonely at the top and has been for a while then. 

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Ahahahaaha! Er... would you believe I meant "Self serving" and "Vicious" before I let spell checker talk me into that?