There, I said it.
I know you(Bioware) want me to pick Reyes, and made her one of the few killable characters in the game, but she's straight with me and the world, has a beautifully complicated backstory, and both the game and her will allow me to meet her snark for snark.
Sloane great pick
you seem to have missed my point about blitzkrieg completely. you were condemning the collective because their overall strategy seemed to resemble the tactics used by the nazi party, i was just pointing out that strategies and tactics created by the nazi controlled german army & air force are used by just about every modern military or paramilitary force in the world. just because these tactics are used doesn't mean those using them are anywhere near on par with n a z i s. your point seems rather absurd, and you can use logic to make connections between anything. i bet you could also draw the same conclusions about sloane's rise to power as you did with reyes.
as to nexus sanctions, besides exile... i don't recall any specific sanctions the nexus placed one the outcasts.
@BlackAlpha66
Hey there! Welcome to the debate! As you have noted, a lot of this stuff has been hashed over before, but please add any new insights you may have. Logical fallacies, the use of popular culture references, and sheer speculation is encouraged, but you may use facts, rational arguments, and historical precedents if you so desire 🥳😃😉
Sloane never lifted a finger to help you, remember this. She keeps saying how much she hates the Initiative. If you do the "honorable" thing and save Sloane, she literally asks you for a "protection fee or else" when negotiating for the outpost. She continues to flood the streets with drugs. She continues to beat people up who don't pay up protection fees, and those who can't pay up, she sends them to die in the badlands. She lives in a throne room where she hosts parties while people outside are dying. She wants to be in charge. Drack tells you how she always had such tendencies, so she has a history with such things. All of this is a really big indicator that she only cares about herself and will take actions at the expense of others to stay in power. Therefore, she is not reliable, nor trustworthy.
To be fair, Sloane also doesn't care if you take drugs off the streets,or even necessarily that she put them there in the first place. This latter part is speculation, but given Sloane's general willingness to get in your face, and the fact that she doesn't bat an eye that you cut off an extremely profitable revenue stream, it does seem vaguely possible. Dr. Nakamoto blames her because he brought the issue to Sloane and then the drugs wound up on the street, but if she delegated the solution to someone like "Dr" asari face....
Anyway, one of Dr. Nakamoto's journal entries notes that he set up the clinic to seek redemption. Why? For creating the drug, or releasing it, or did he do something like Mordin, or Maelon? Big Out-There Conspiracy speculation, did he develop the drug with help from Reyes and then get mad when he was unable to get Sloane to shut it down? (there were both Collective and Outcast troops fighting for control of the lab)
Also, the Badlands are no longer a death sentence. The water is now useable, there are safe zones like the refugee refuge and the outpost to settle, and, based on conversations with the Warden, Outcast guards, and during the guy with a dancer crush mini-quest, people who don't pay protection may just wind up in the slums, unless they are really bad/want to leave.
The only party I saw was a town hall meeting with booze. I don't recall Drack telling me she wanted to rule, but I do remember she had issues with authority, but given the blatant disregard for authority that Alec, Ryder, and the Pathfinders (not to mention Shepard) have displayed, I don't think that we can fairly hold that against her.
Anyway, she is at war with the Nexus leadership and hates them. You represent the Nexus so she dislikes you. You support her, she supports you, although she still hates the Nexus leadership and is going to make them "pay" $$😃😉:eahigh_file:
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Reyes went through great trouble to help you. If you let Reyes kill her, all of the above problems stop. Like, you can actually go to the city and see it with your own eyes, the problems stop. On top of that, the Angaran government takes over, bringing stability and welfare for the inhabitants, something the inhabitants desperately need. This shows that Reyes is prepared to make compromises with others, it's not just all about him. The Initiative will get political browny points with the Angaran government, so the Initiative benefits too. Reyes said he wanted to show you his true self before announcing who he really is, but he didn't really want to lie to you and he apologizes for not being truthful sooner (his story is backed up by that Angara leader woman). Reyes says he wants peace and fair trade, which are promises he fulfills. So, he has shown integrity, goodwill towards all parties, and trustworthiness.
However, Reyes also mentions he will be pulling strings from the shadows. That might sound scary, and it's not ideal, but you must remember how much the inhabitants, the Angara, and the Initiative have benefited from his actions. Also keep in mind that Sloane was already doing the exact same thing and think about how hurtful Sloane's actions have been to everyone (except herself and her thugs). So, at the very least, if you see this situation as having to choose the lesser of two evils, Sloane is clearly the much bigger evil that has been hurting everyone, while Reyes is an evil who goes out of his way to make others benefit and he plays nice.
The Angaran government is a puppet. As well say that Vidkun Quisling brought stability and welfare for the inhabitants of Norway or Marshal Petain brought stability and welfare for the inhabitants of France. "he has shown integrity, goodwill towards all parties, and trustworthiness." vs "Reyes also mentions he will be pulling strings from the shadows." I may just have a nasty suspicious mind, but these statements seem to contradict each other. Plus, Sloane really doesn't seem to be pulling strings from the shadows, but rather just doing whatever she does out in the open.👿
Anyway, given the amount of torture and killing Reyes is behind it's hard to say he plays nice. He may not currently charge the Initiative rent, but he has exterminated all his competition (smugglers, outcasts, etc.) and really hasn't surrendered any of his actual power, no matter what he says. Along the way he has almost certainly eliminated all of the other founding members of the Collective (his ex being compared to Ernst Rohm).
Plus, if one has a nasty, suspicious mind, you might think that all those "helpful" missions you take part in with Reyes are simply just eliminating his competition and awkward witnesses. For example, the charlatan suckering the other smugglers into launching a suicide "ambush" of Reyes and Ryder. 👿
Also, the Rokaar still have contacts in the Resistance. Reyes is a Resistance operative known only by a code name and (presumably) operating mostly by dead drops. It would be easy to , as a "concerned Angara", provide the Rokaar with the identities of Angara who are pro-Milky Way (and presumably pro-Milky Way government, IE Sloane). When the Rokaar get out of control or the Collective starts taking heat on the matter the Rokaar can be exposed and eliminated before they can reveal the name of their Resistance contact. Luckily, when the need to go there is a sappy outsider just raring to help out and incidentally provide a nice dash of authenticity. 👿:eahigh_file:
That said, I just want to comment on how silly the writing of the final showdown was:
"Hey there, stranger. I know I've been treating you and everyone else like ***, but can you do me a really, really big favor? I'm going to this secret meeting, in this cave that is really hard to escape from, where people will surely want to kill me, and I need you to save my life. No, I won't take my most trusted body guards with me. You, stranger, will be the only thing that will stand in between me and my enemies. And you know what? I think I'll leave my shield right here, I probably won't need it... Let's go."
After Kaetus gets chunked Sloane has evidence it was an inside job. Since she doesn't know which of her men will shoot her in the back she turns to the local heavily armed Good Samaritan, who has worked with her before without taking a shot at her and even kept their mouth shut about the op. It's not perfect, but it's the best she's got, and if she can handle the Charlatan she can take down the Collective without too much danger.
@CasperTheLich wrote:
you seem to have missed my point about blitzkrieg completely. you were condemning the collective because their overall strategy seemed to resemble the tactics used by the nazi party, i was just pointing out that strategies and tactics created by the nazi controlled german army & air force are used by just about every modern military or paramilitary force in the world. just because these tactics are used doesn't mean those using them are anywhere near on par with n a z i s. you your point seems rather absurd, and you can use logic to make connections between anything. i bet you could also draw the same conclusions about sloane's rise to power as you did with reyes.
as to nexus sanctions, besides exile... i don't recall any specific sanctions the nexus placed one the outcasts.
Yes, the point was mostly to be absurd, with just enough plausibility to make Reyes fans twitch and go "Reyes...Huff....Is...Huff....Not...Huff....Hittler!!" It seems to be working!😛👿
Yes, Yes, Blitzkrieg is a great military tactic and V8s got man to space, Etc. Etc., and we're not Na-Zis as long as we are allowed to speak at Berkley...
Anyway, if you want to play it that way, Blitzkrieg is just the unification/formalization of existing military skills such as Billy Mitchell's aggressive bombers and ground combat strategies that go back at least as far as the Mongols.
Furthermore, you would not describe marooning people in space with limited supplies and no chance for further contact, supplies, or support as a heavy sanction?
in this particular case i don't view exile as an actual sanction at all. and iirc it was the exiles (sloane in particular) who chose exile in the first place. tann/nexus leadership gave them a choice, not much of one, but still a choice... back into the freezer till the nexus can put together a proper tribunal or what-have-you, or go out on your own, without nexus support of any kind. they could have just as easily had them lined up and shot. might have been easier in the short term.
fudgietroll wrote:
Anyway, one of Dr. Nakamoto's journal entries notes that he set up the clinic to seek redemption. Why? For creating the drug, or releasing it, or did he do something like Mordin, or Maelon? Big Out-There Conspiracy speculation
Respectfully, you say yourself that you are speculating. If we speculate, we can make Ryder look like that German leader from WW2 and Sloane like the Pope. The lore strongly suggests the doctor wanted to turn the drug into medicine, but Sloane didn't let him.
fudgietroll wrote:
Also, the Badlands are no longer a death sentence.
It's still a lawless place full of murderers and monsters. But nevermind that. The bigger issue here is that she exiles people for not paying the bribes. She also bleeds them dry using drugs. She also beats them when they can't pay up - that's torture, remember?
fudgietroll wrote:
The only party I saw was a town hall meeting with booze.
I don't recall Drack telling me she wanted to rule, but I do remember she had issues with authority, but given the blatant disregard for authority that Alec, Ryder, and the Pathfinders (not to mention Shepard) have displayed, I don't think that we can fairly hold that against her.I don't recall Drack telling me she wanted to rule, but I do remember she had issues with authority, but given the blatant disregard for authority that Alec, Ryder, and the Pathfinders (not to mention Shepard) have displayed, I don't think that we can fairly hold that against her.
A town hall meeting? Please explain how that was a town hall meeting. They call it specifically a party.
Nobody cares she disregards authority. You are forgetting about the whole violent warlord thing she has going on. It's the violence that bothers people. She beats, tortures, extorts, raids, etc. Reyes tortures too. When you compare the two Sloane comes on top of being more violent.
fudgietroll wrote:
You represent the Nexus so she dislikes you. You support her, she supports you, although she still hates the Nexus leadership and is going to make them "pay" $$
Well, she gives you the whole spiel of "it would be a shame if somebody would wreck your outpost, but I can stop that from happening, for a price". Reyes just wants to do trade. So, which one sounds more trustworthy to you?
fudgietroll wrote:
The Angaran government is a puppet...
I may just have a nasty suspicious mind, but these statements seem to contradict each other.
Plus, Sloane really doesn't seem to be pulling strings from the shadows, but rather just doing whatever she does out in the open.
And yet stability was brought to the inhabitants. The beatings and extortion stopped. That in turn will have a positive effect on welfare, which is likely to increase prosperity of the city.
I don't see how facts can contradict each other. Reyes took steps, he did things to show he has integrity, goodwill towards all parties, and trustworthiness. Reyes also mentions he will be pulling strings from the shadows. They are things that happened. Whether you accept his trustworthiness is another matter. Sloane has done none of that.
(sarcasm) Wait, Sloane doesn't pull strings from the shadows? I think I missed the democratic committee that must approve her decisions. (/sarcasm) Whenever she has a plan, does she informs everyone on what that plan is? No, she does not, right? So, she does things in the shadows just as much as Reyes does. The difference between the two is that people don't know Reyes is one of the leaders in charge. That is what the writers mean when they said he does things from "the shadows".
fudgietroll wrote:
Anyway, given the amount of torture and killing Reyes is behind it's hard to say he plays nice.
The amount of torture... You seem to imply that the game tells us that Reyes does a lot of torture, while in reality, we simply have one case in which we know the collective tortured someone - one case. And how much torture and killing has Sloane done? She beats up all people who don't pay up, it's part of her thugs' policy. Additionally, we know that the beatings are mentioned a lot. So, that means the game tells us that Sloane tortures more than Reyes. More than that, Reyes targets criminals, while Sloane targets civilians.
fudgietroll wrote:
Along the way he has almost certainly eliminated all of the other founding members of the Collective
Plus, if one has a nasty, suspicious mind, you might think that all those "helpful" missions you take part in with Reyes are simply just eliminating his competition and awkward witnesses. For example, the charlatan suckering the other smugglers into launching a suicide "ambush"...
Well, you are speculating again. You are also ignoring the lore, which states the exact opposite. Go watch a video of that mission you are referring to. Nothing in the cutscenes supports what you are saying.
I feel like you are doing that a lot. You ignore the lore, you twist facts, so you can paint a picture that you want to see, rather than what actually is there given to us by the writers. Well, you are free to do so, but I prefer to stick to the lore.
fudgietroll wrote:
After Kaetus gets chunked Sloane has evidence it was an inside job. Since she doesn't know which of her men will shoot her in the back she turns to the local heavily armed Good Samaritan, who has worked with her before without taking a shot at her and even kept their mouth shut about the op. It's not perfect, but it's the best she's got, and if she can handle the Charlatan she can take down the Collective without too much danger.
She doesn't know Ryder, she doesn't know if she can trust him, and for all she knows, Ryder could be in on the plan to kill her in that cave. Maybe it was Ryder who persuaded the guards. Sloane hasn't spent any time with Ryder. She hasn't talked to Ryder. She has no clue who Ryder is as a person. So, there's no reason for Sloane to trust Ryder. No matter how you turn it, it just doesn't fit. As I mentioned before, there's also the whole thing with her shield suddenly not working which is a thing that happens during many cutscenes, actually. The writing in this game is often lackluster.
@CasperTheLich wrote:
in this particular case i don't view exile as an actual sanction at all. and iirc it was the exiles (sloane in particular) who chose exile in the first place. tann/nexus leadership gave them a choice, not much of one, but still a choice... back into the freezer till the nexus can put together a proper tribunal or what-have-you, or go out on your own, without nexus support of any kind. they could have just as easily had them lined up and shot. might have been easier in the short term.
But then who would line up and shoot all the Krogan? At some point the pogroms would have to stop - people wouldn't go for being thawed so they could be part of a firing squad.
@mcsupersport wrote:
NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO
PLEASE LEAVE THAT OLD GERMAN PARTY IN THE SCRAP HEAP OF TIME AND FRINGE IDIOTS.
I have said before, I think Reyes is the worse enemy to help, and debate is fun, but honestly it will all depend on Bioware writing the next chapter and after some of the current writing examples, I am scared....
Sorry, the Kett are basically spacenazis anyway. Might as well accept Reyes as Adolph
lol, nope they are organic Borg....
They aren't trying to exterminate people who don't meet their standards, they are trying to make everyone into them and bettering their race with imported DNA...aka, organic Borg...
@mcsupersport wrote:
lol, nope they are organic Borg....
They aren't trying to exterminate people who don't meet their standards, they are trying to make everyone into them and bettering their race with imported DNA...aka, organic Borg...
They are also exterminating everyone who is not considered worthy of exaltation via massacres, forced labor camps, and human/other species experimentation.
So I'll meet you halfway... Organic Borg Spacenazis....😃👿
