Re: Alec Ryder (spoilers)

Ok, so one of two things happened here. Either Alec dies due to some combination of unexpected technical difficulties and bad decision-making, or he faked his death, probably to pursue his Benefactor concerns. Take your pick, although I'm enjoying the flashback of Liam Neeson in A-Team "So Satan walks into a bar..."

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@fudgietroll wrote:

Ok, so one of two things happened here. Either Alec dies due to some combination of unexpected technical difficulties and bad decision-making, or he faked his death, probably to pursue his Benefactor concerns. Take your pick, although I'm enjoying the flashback of Liam Neeson in A-Team "So Satan walks into a bar..."

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Or you have the slightest little bit of suspension of belief and understand that he died because he couldn't keep both of you alive in a hostile environment with the injuries and busted equipment.

My second option is obviously too hard for some people.

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@arthurh3535 wrote:

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@fudgietroll wrote:

Ok, so one of two things happened here. Either Alec dies due to some combination of unexpected technical difficulties and bad decision-making, or he faked his death, probably to pursue his Benefactor concerns. Take your pick, although I'm enjoying the flashback of Liam Neeson in A-Team "So Satan walks into a bar..."

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Or you have the slightest little bit of suspension of belief and understand that he died because he couldn't keep both of you alive in a hostile environment with the injuries and busted equipment.

My second option is obviously too hard for some people.

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So some combination of unexpected technical difficulties and bad decision-making for you then.

Also, don't hate on the conspiracy theorists. We may be crazy, but we have more fun!

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@arthurh3535 wrote:

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@fudgietroll wrote:

Ok, so one of two things happened here. Either Alec dies due to some combination of unexpected technical difficulties and bad decision-making, or he faked his death, probably to pursue his Benefactor concerns. Take your pick, although I'm enjoying the flashback of Liam Neeson in A-Team "So Satan walks into a bar..."

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Or you have the slightest little bit of suspension of belief and understand that he died because he couldn't keep both of you alive in a hostile environment with the injuries and busted equipment.

My second option is obviously too hard for some people.

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Fill the plothole with whatever you want, but you are going to have to stretch belief to fill it with science. It *was* dramatic, and, obviously, important to the storyline.

You don't see his corpse or even ask where he lies. Pop and I close? I never look back... but neither do you.

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

Fill the plothole with whatever you want, but you are going to have to stretch belief to fill it with science. It *was* dramatic, and, obviously, important to the storyline.

You don't see his corpse or even ask where he lies. Pop and I close? I never look back... but neither do you.

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No, real science says that you can pass out and start dying within seconds. Buddy sharing may not work that well (especially with it having to flush out the atmosphere against 2.3 standard Earth atmosphere. People are actually reaching to 'prove' that it was a stupid death.

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@arthurh3535 wrote:

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

Fill the plothole with whatever you want, but you are going to have to stretch belief to fill it with science. It *was* dramatic, and, obviously, important to the storyline.

You don't see his corpse or even ask where he lies. Pop and I close? I never look back... but neither do you.

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No, real science says that you can pass out and start dying within seconds. Buddy sharing may not work that well (especially with it having to flush out the atmosphere against 2.3 standard Earth atmosphere. People are actually reaching to 'prove' that it was a stupid death.

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The great thing about science is it doesn't care what anyone's opinion about it is. In the first post I gave a half dozen ideas for ways around his death off the top of my head. Follow up posts, some with links, and there's no shortage of evidence that stopping your breathing OR your heart is not an automatic death sentence - today or in the future. It is part of this storyline actually.

I'm glad you liked it, and I'm sure Bioware is glad as well. It is their story.

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

The great thing about science is it doesn't care what anyone's opinion about it is. In the first post I gave a half dozen ideas for ways around his death off the top of my head. Follow up posts, some with links, and there's no shortage of evidence that stopping your breathing OR your heart is not an automatic death sentence - today or in the future. It is part of this storyline actually.

I'm glad you liked it, and I'm sure Bioware is glad as well. It is their story.

So, in other words, if someone brings up anything that counters your off the top thoughts, it doesn't matter at all.

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@arthurh3535 wrote:

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

The great thing about science is it doesn't care what anyone's opinion about it is. In the first post I gave a half dozen ideas for ways around his death off the top of my head. Follow up posts, some with links, and there's no shortage of evidence that stopping your breathing OR your heart is not an automatic death sentence - today or in the future. It is part of this storyline actually.

I'm glad you liked it, and I'm sure Bioware is glad as well. It is their story.

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So, in other words, if someone brings up anything that counters your off the top thoughts, it doesn't matter at all.

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No, in other words, you just want to argue. Get your own thread if that's what you're after.

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

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@arthurh3535 wrote:

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

The great thing about science is it doesn't care what anyone's opinion about it is. In the first post I gave a half dozen ideas for ways around his death off the top of my head. Follow up posts, some with links, and there's no shortage of evidence that stopping your breathing OR your heart is not an automatic death sentence - today or in the future. It is part of this storyline actually.

I'm glad you liked it, and I'm sure Bioware is glad as well. It is their story.

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So, in other words, if someone brings up anything that counters your off the top thoughts, it doesn't matter at all.

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No, in other words, you just want to argue. Get your own thread if that's what you're after.

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Agreed!

There is a big difference between differing opinions, having a healthy debate over it.. or someone getting hostile.

Respect for others opinions goes both ways.

Debates often include well informed counters.

When it gets to personal insulting someone and general hostility its not a debate anymore.

In a good debate you can also see the other persons pov - even understand it and then offer a counter of your own.

This is just different. Taken a not so nice turn.

i'm still convinced it was a death sentence for one of them. in such a situation being one helmet shy just isn't survivable for the one to be without, as shuttle extraction simply takes too long. even if sara/scott wasn't out cold survival is unlikely, but that's what really put the nail in the coffin.

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

i'm still convinced it was a death sentence for one of them. in such a situation being one helmet shy just isn't survivable for the one to be without, as shuttle extraction simply takes too long. even if sara/scott wasn't out cold survival is unlikely, but that's what really put the nail in the coffin.

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Honestly they weren't actually out cold, not at first. Totally stunned though but Dad puts helm on head, says take deep breaths and they followed his instructions but they weren't really with it. On the verge I think.

iirc, even after alec puts the helmet on sara/scott s/he passes out almost immediately. or am i miss remembering?

Yeah I think its pretty immediate as the helm is put on and they do the breathing thing - SAM is transferred- they hear that bit.

The fade then is either a fade to the next part or them passing out, I'm pretty sure in this case it was symbolic to them loosing conciousness.

In all honesty Dad talking is his death sentence. You can't talk without breathing so in talking he was breathing in the atmosphere. Instead of holding his breath. He couldn’t transfer SAM without talking and he wasn't taking chances of it being passed to Cora instead.

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@Nykara360 wrote:

Yeah I think its pretty immediate as the helm is put on and they do the breathing thing - SAM is transferred- they hear that bit.

The fade then is either a fade to the next part or them passing out, I'm pretty sure in this case it was symbolic to them loosing conciousness.

In all honesty Dad talking is his death sentence. You can't talk without breathing so in talking he was breathing in the atmosphere. Instead of holding his breath. He couldn’t transfer SAM without talking and he wasn't taking chances of it being passed to Cora instead.

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Even if you fill your lungs with inert gas (or water) if you clear them you can start breathing again. Your heart usually beats for minutes after you stop breathing - unless your heart stopping is the reason you quit breathing.

Watched it one more time. Your faceplate is intact after you get struck by whatever it is that knocks you off. Runtime from the moment they focus on you on your back to when dad puts his helmet on your head is thirty seconds. You change position, but make choking noises the whole time. It is unclear how long you've been on your back without a faceplate.

Dad is harder to figure. It starts with his helmet off and you have to work from SAM's replayed memory... and for some reason SAM's "initiating transfer" line is missing from the memory. So you have to just find the earliest possible time SAM could of said that and plug it into the original scene. Your memory from that point to black is 14 seconds, your dad's memory from that to you falling over is 9 seconds. In total, he lasts for 17 seconds without a helmet and ends with his last word.

i'd still like to know if it was transferring sams functions to scott/sara that actually killed alec? as we can't really be sure what happened in the end.  

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

i'd still like to know if it was transferring sams functions to scott/sara that actually killed alec? as we can't really be sure what happened in the end.  

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Maybe dad smoked for years and then quit, and had COPD. 🙂

Only half kidding - it is possible he had some medical reason to be at reduced lung function. Lots of people either got medical waivers or skirted requirements to make the trip.

Isn't the transferring of SAM a very ... debilitating thing?

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@PandaTar wrote:

Isn't the transferring of SAM a very ... debilitating thing?

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Totally unknown, actually. We've never seen one done in a non-emergency (or post emergency) situation.

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@PandaTar wrote:

Isn't the transferring of SAM a very ... debilitating thing?

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The mechanics aren't particularly clear, and you add to that with the human SAM also being an atypical SAM.

Do you think it even possible to 'abdicate'? Does the transfer of a SAM require a death as some sort of sacrifice to the AI/VI gods?

Sarissa's will transfer without killing her. The human one has been tinkered with past that point so it is iffier. You are also uniquely bonded to it beyond pop's tinkering  - so are an even bigger maybe.

I wonder what I have for onboard memory. Usually a field panel, like me, has some that retains setpoints and parameters if it quits talking to the server. I wonder if that is what is keeping me alive when the network crashes - or if I really can survive without SAM.

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

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@PandaTar wrote:

Isn't the transferring of SAM a very ... debilitating thing?

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The mechanics aren't particularly clear, and you add to that with the human SAM also being an atypical SAM.

Do you think it even possible to 'abdicate'? Does the transfer of a SAM require a death as some sort of sacrifice to the AI/VI gods?

Sarissa's will transfer without killing her. The human one has been tinkered with past that point so it is iffier. You are also uniquely bonded to it beyond pop's tinkering  - so are an even bigger maybe.

I wonder what I have for onboard memory. Usually a field panel, like me, has some that retains setpoints and parameters if it quits talking to the server. I wonder if that is what is keeping me alive when the network crashes - or if I really can survive without SAM.

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The whole point of other twin's remote chip reboot was that SAM had taken over so much his absence was killing you, but post reboot, during and after the meridian battle, you should be independently survivable, although at reduced capability without SAM. If Alec had the same Pre-reboot issues losing SAM would have killed him without someone to do a reboot.

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@fudgietroll wrote:

The whole point of other twin's remote chip reboot was that SAM had taken over so much his absence was killing you, but post reboot, during and after the meridian battle, you should be independently survivable, although at reduced capability without SAM. If Alec had the same Pre-reboot issues losing SAM would have killed him without someone to do a reboot.

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I think it was stated that SAM had to take over so much to bring you back to life the first time (which is why SAM had to re-calibrate the connection).

@jpcerutti1

Do you think the Ryder siblings have the same disease their mother have? We know she developed such disease by meddling with eezo, but who knows how far it could infect or if it was something strictly from her job. Given SAM was speaking privately before Alec died, it could be that he warned Alec about something else, a critical state in his son/daughter got into, and he couldn't afford the risk. Giving their task is supposed to find a cure, it would grant their survival, at the cost of Alec's life only.

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@PandaTar wrote:

@jpcerutti1

Do you think the Ryder siblings have the same disease their mother have? We know she developed such disease by meddling with eezo, but who knows how far it could infect or if it was something strictly from her job. Given SAM was speaking privately before Alec died, it could be that he warned Alec about something else, a critical state in his son/daughter got into, and he couldn't afford the risk. Giving their task is supposed to find a cure, it would grant their survival, at the cost of Alec's life only.

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I'm pretty sure that 'incurable, fatal illness' would have been mentioned at some time.

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@PandaTar wrote:

@jpcerutti1

Do you think the Ryder siblings have the same disease their mother have? We know she developed such disease by meddling with eezo, but who knows how far it could infect or if it was something strictly from her job. Given SAM was speaking privately before Alec died, it could be that he warned Alec about something else, a critical state in his son/daughter got into, and he couldn't afford the risk. Giving their task is supposed to find a cure, it would grant their survival, at the cost of Alec's life only.

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Maybe? I would of hoped Lexi would catch that with a workup. I'm still not clear on what is APB and what is need-to-know with SAM's lines. I tried going back and seeing if the choice of addressing (Pathfinder, your name, just a statement) helped (also with subtitles - which are sometimes titled as private) and if there is a set of rules there they don't strictly adhere to them.

Don't know if the selective editing was Bioware intentional/sloppy or SAM intentional. I do NOT trust the hardware in my head. The original scene (post helmet) runs longer than the memory with you pitching over at the end of the memory. Intentionally blurry - but with the facial rendering issues I don't think there's any point in trying to lipread what is said. Until they choose to untangle it, it will remain a mystery wrapped in a conundrum folded into an enigma.

I don't think SAM ever states that he has a stronger connection with you than he did your father.  In fact, I am pretty certain he states that the connection he has with you is the same as the one he had with Alec.

That being said, Lexi stated that removing the SAM would kill you (which we can now take as simply being severely debilitating) so based on the above, it would be possible that Alec died, not from the atmosphere (or at least not that alone) and instead died because of the SAM transfer either killing him or crippling him so much that in that environment, he couldn't survive for as long as the average person.

This is possibly why SAMs don't usually transfer until a Pathfinder is dead as it is likely dangerous to the host.

Alec's death could have been done better but to me, it is clear they just wanted him to die and do so in a way that required him to save his kid and this was the best way they could think of.  

But (as at least one other person pointed out) it was such a "We just want him dead" type situation that he never matters again.  We don't retrieve his body.  Do a funeral or anything.  It's like they didn't even try hard to make his death matter or make much sense.

People survive worse now and with SAM enhancing him, I feel like Alec could have lasted even longer than well trained people.  This makes Alec surviving that situation using a buddy system quite feasible.

In fact, he has a super AI in his head that would have likely been able to devise a way for both of them to survive the situation now that I think about it.

So, to be fair, I think him dying could have been done better but I concede that I cannot think of a better death that would also allow him to sacrifice himself for his kid and/or his team.  I personally would have abandoned that aspect and just settled for a more believable death.

(interfacing directly with alien tech my chosen method of him needing to transfer SAM and if killing Alec is a must, it could have done that too)