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Anonymous

10 years ago

Solved

The fraud that is NFS:NL

I have to post this research here after being told by support that my concerns should be posted on their facebook page instead of handling the problem properly. I've been playing this game since las...

PaladineUK
8 years ago
I don't normally necro threads but given we were discussing this issue almost 2 years ago and there are recent developments I figured I would share them.
So today (due to yet more cash grabbing by EA) the Belgian Gaming Commission has stated that RNG boxes in video games are classed as gambling and as such they must abide by gambling laws (I explained the legal position on this a looong time ago - see earlier int his thread). They are now looking to ban Pay to Win RNG boxes in video games which is likely to become an EU wide ban at some point int he next couple of years.
Furthermore, Politicians in the US are also calling out EA's predatory practices (gambling laws in the US are very strict) so we will probably see some action there as well in the not too distant future.
So back to this thread - because it has now been established that RNG boxes are a form of gambling, they must follow gambling laws which means that the outcome cannot be pre-determined in a game of chance - meaning that the boxes in NFS:No Limits -must- be random in order to be lawful.
I haven't done any further research on the boxes in NFS:No Limits on whether or not EA have changed their behaviour to make the outcome random or not since this thread back in 2016 - but it would be interesting to know.
Today's ruling by the Belgian Gaming Commission is a really good thing because RNG boxes have rapidly become one of the worst aspects of video games and I for one will be very glad to see them gone for good.

Anonymous

9 years ago

I'm sorry if what I wrote before didn't seem very clear... but I do understand and I did address that very problem. Let me summarize and make clear what I said.

The three cards you can choose mean nothing. All three of those cards are the same answer. The answer is selected by random sampling... aka, chance. I do not know exactly when the random sampling takes place, however I would guess that it is directly after the race. So the random sampling takes place, gets an answer, and you pick that answer no matter what card you pick. Simple as that.

So then you say, well why doesn't the answer change after I download the save and try again?

The answer doesn't change because you haven't changed the input. (Highlight that word.... INPUT!) The input is the key to changing the output. The answer is a dependent variable. The input is an independent variable. If you change the input, than you will change the output. (Super simple but kind of stupid example: 1+1=2 ... well, lets change the input from 1 to 2... 1+2=3 ... now lets change something else in the input... 1x1=1) This doesn't explain why the game is chance... but it does explain how a calculator, or even a human, does random sampling.

Ok, since this is long, lets summarize what we have so far. 3 cards mean nothing. Answer comes from Random sampling. The random answer doesn't change because it was given the same input. Ya with me camera guy? (Salute to Sham wow... haha)

So then, what makes Random Sampling a game of chance?

Random Sampling is a game of chance because you get a random, unpredictable result. Technology these days lets us see that result and put in the exact same input into a random sampling, allowing us to see that result and get it again and again. The result is still random, however, because we can put in the EXACT SAME INPUT, we'll get the EXACT SAME RESULT!

Now this is where I think I lost you.... What you're thinking is... THEN IT'S NOT A GAME OF CHANCE IF YOU CAN PREDICT THE ANSWER SHERLOCK! Haha, if you already shouted that before you read it, than I hope you enjoyed a laugh.

So, in order for me to prove to you that it is still considered a game of chance, lets compare it to a game of chance and let me explain to you what great superpower technology has given us.

Rolling the dice is a game of chance correct? You roll the dice, get a 3 and a 4, and say, "My good sir, THAT is a game of chance... completely random." Now, you cannot physically replay that moment of your life, but if you could, and you did everything EXACTLY like before, you would get the same numbers, 3 and 4.

This is the exact same phenomenon that is happening in the video game. It's called Time-travel. (You know, going back in time and experiencing everything exactly the way it happened all over again.) Computers allow us to experience time-travel.... crazy right? So my question to you then, is rolling the dice still considered a game of chance? (Well, by the standards of the world... yes, it is a game of chance.) (Is it a game of chance when you travel back in time and do everything the same.... knowing the result all along? Not anymore it isn't.)

Ok ok, so what are you saying exactly? I am saying that, unless you change the imput, in this game and also with anything in life, you will get the same exact output. Nothing will change. It is a game of chance when you do not know the answer. However, it doesn't seem like a game of chance when you do know the answer... nor does anything else in life. So is it a game of chance... yes... so is rolling dice, playing a slot machine, and receiving the cards from the dealer. However, all of those are no longer a game of chance when you know the answer.

The game of chance doesn't happen when you select a card... it happens before you select a card, and after you give it the same input, winning that race without doing anything else. (So then, you cannot test if it is a game of chance simply by reloading a save and winning the race again. If you do that, then you've put in the same input. How can we then test it to see if it is truly a game of chance? You would have to prove that the random sampling never took place. (It can take place after the race, before the race, before you have raced your very first race.... although I doubt that.)

Basically, it is impossible for me or you to test if the random sampling ever occurred, unless we had the computer skills to look at the program and all of it's data and find the random sampling.... idk what it would look like... or how we'd be able to even look at all the data. Basically... it's almost impossible for us to test. The guys giving away in-game compensations either know that there is no random-sampling taking place.... or they're idiots who should be fired because they don't know that there IS random sampling taking place and think that the tests you and others have done can prove otherwise.

What I am trying to say is that you cannot prove that there is no random sampling taking place. The tests you have done do not prove that random sampling isn't taking place... nor do they prove that it did take place.

You don't need much credentials to understand random sampling and chance, however. I am a high-school/college student who scored 30 composite on the ACT, has a 4.2 GPA (lazy me), and understands random sampling because of my Math college classes. (I am also talented in Math.... although I cannot prove that to you through through these comments... haha)

Hope that makes everything clear.... email me if it doesn't. (It's a garbage email... not a personal... however I will check it.)

Anonymous

9 years ago

SontaWarrior, when a company shows you three possible prizes, flips them over, moves them, for it to be a game of chance you MUST have a chance to win any of those three on your first selection.

The computer CANNOT determine that no matter what card you pick you get X. If it does, it is no longer a game of chance. That is what is happening.

Anonymous
9 years ago
Well, if this thread proves one thing, it is how irrelevant this forum is, since no developer ever replied to this post. 😞
Only from reading this thread (i am way to lazy to test this with all the crashes appearing at the moment), i presume that there is a random chance. It's just not determined after winning a race but after getting your previous reward. This means after choosing your reward, the "randomness" for the next reward takes place. You should advance your testing to 2 races and then reloading the game. In one scenario you could race the same race twice. You should get different rewards the second time. In another scenario you can race two different races or alter by racing one race and check the reward and then reload and race another race before doing the first one. This should show, that there is a random factor.
Although i get your complaint about the 3 fake choices at the end, i would say this solution is quite good. It's kind of an anti-cheat system, so that you can't alter your rewards by reloading the game. (Or at least not by reloading after one race, you would have to do at least 2 races to get another chance) This would definitely reduce the quality of this game in my opinion, since reloading and racing again to get a better reward is no fun at all.
On another note, i think there was a suggestion, which would enhance the gameplay and solve your chance issue at the same time. That would be giving the player the option to choose one of the three rewards at the end. This way there would be no issue with gambling law (in case you don't want to complain about the randomness of the 3 given choices, that is) And on the other hand this would address the issue of farming those gray upgrade items and getting to many "worseless" modpoints.
- Anonymous
  9 years ago
  They darn't post in here as what ever they post will kill them. If they deny it and later are proven to be lying that would hurt them badly. If they admit it, that can o' worms will be alllllll over!
- Anonymous
  9 years ago
  Druffi, I agree with your first paragraph. I expected FM/EA to respond to my concerns on my tech support ticket or here, but they haven't. But they are reading this thread, for sure. I'm my experience with FM/EA (real racing 3) this only means that they know this is a problem, and they either don't want to solve (because they believe they can get away with it if customers don't complain too much) or the game engine has that as a feature hard to remove. Either way, it just shows how dishonest they are. Funny how this thread disappears and reappears from time to time. I'm still hoping that they are going to come out and fix this.
  The solution you proposed in your 3rd. paragraph is something I also recommended in my request. It's the best way out of this mess. But I'm afraid that the implementation is not trivial because I have the impression that once the cards are shuffled, they already placed the "winning" card in all the slots to force you to get it no matter what you select. Once you select it, the program may replace the other two with the other potential rewards in case you want to expend gold for them. I feel this is their arrangement (you can see that on some races in the underground your slot will have a characteristic background of an epic card but you get money or the useless visual points instead).
  On your second paragraph you speculate about why the cards come predefined after a reload. While that could be the explanation, we don't know. Any test trying to prove that will be hard to implement and time consuming. Maybe you want to try and let us all know. But still that is not the issue of the fraud complaint. As I explained in previous posts, the core issue is that the handling of the draw (presented as a game of chance) is illegal and the developer knows that but still use it counting on us (customers) being oblivious and willing to careless waste money in the game. This is a pattern very similar to the attitude casinos had before regulations rein them in and prevent them from abusing people susceptible to gambling binges (gamblers still go at it, but at least the casinos can't rig the games to make winning impossible). The attitude shows total contempt for their customers and abuse of the lack of specific regulations against these things.
  - OsamaItachi
    9 years ago
    Hi guys.
    Well, the first issue was that the first reward we get "randomly" is not random, meaning you'll get the same reward whichever spot you touch and even if you reload the race and race again. Now what I tested is to save the game and do the same race 3 times and reloadthen redo the race. Well guess what, you'll get the same rewards in the same order, meaning there is nothing random at all in this game. It's kind of a relief for me since first I never bought gold and second now I can relax, not worrying which spot to choose.
    I mean how lazy these guys are? Adding a random method in their code. Someone might say that this is to prevent people not to reload the game to get exactly what they want, well many things could have been done to prevent it like a cool down between 2 reloads or something.
    Good Job EA/FM!!!
    This should at least gave yo time to fix your bugs : invisible road, crashes, suddens exits, but no...