LT abuse is still there
Granted, my defending in these clips is atrocious. I'll concede that. However, just look at the ease in which the offensive player maintains control of the puck while literally going through defender...
Forum Discussion
@TITAN_NHL wrote:I honestly don’t get why so many people think that twitch streamers are the reason why the game is the way it is, or that they want it that way.
Typically if you’re going to be a gameplay streamer for NHL, you’re going to have to be very good at the game, most streamers who aren’t great at the game are menu streamers, like opening hut packs as their content, franchise mode, etc. So in order to be good at the game, you need to do what works, and let’s be real here… if you aren’t abusing game mechanics, you simply won’t compete.
It’s not a matter of whether you think LT skating is dumb or not… if you don’t use it you simply won’t compete with high end players. Whatever EA does to change this game, people will find the meta way of playing it to give themselves every advantage to win regardless of what is perceived as bad gameplay design. You can either complain about it, and continue to play the game in a way that is going to limit your success due to trying to play it like “real hockey”, or you can treat it as what it is… a video game, like any other, that has design flaws that are exploited and used to your advantage.
Dont get me wrong, I’m not defending LT skating at all, imo I think it was a massive blow to the series when they removed the old, and great vision control we used to have and replaced it with backwards skating. They basically removed a defensive tool that was a core part of the game, and replaced it with something that shouldn’t be a core part of the game, and ever since, playing D has felt like a chore just to position your guy in a way you actually want to.
But at the end of the day, I realize this is a game, and being a competitive player I’m going to do whatever I need to do to give myself every advantage possible to win games, and that means learning all the gameplay design flaws and using them to your advantage.
I agree with you but I don't think we mean to label all twitch streamers. There's definitely a select few who are from the Gamechangers program (now the EA Creators Network) who definitely have the ear of some EA employees and their feedback is prioritized. These players are notorious for exploiting LT.
I'm someone who argued that LT could be defended against last year and that it wasn't a big deal. I feel slightly responsible in the sense that I should've pushed back against it more. In my defense, I knew that DSS (the way it was in '22) was the most effective tool in combating that nonsense and I was able to successfully shut down top players last year (albeit, not consistently) and I thought maybe LT was meeting its match.
However, they completely neutered DSS this year and seemingly made LTing even MORE effective, if you can believe that.
It tells me all I need to know about whose feedback gets prioritized.
I definitely think the gamechanger program did more harm than good to the series overall. I honestly think the only way this game changes for the better is if EA actually balances the game based around the absolute top tier skilled players of the game. If it’s balanced at the absolute high end, it is balanced for everyone at that point and it truly will come down to skill gap at that point.
Just bothers me that we are constantly asked for video proof and clips of game issues that literally can be noticed within 1-2 games of playing online, which tells me these devs don’t actually play the game, or if they do it’s at such a casual level that they are ignorant to it. I would absolutely love if a dev could watch my club play for a night and witness the absolute trash we go through and give actual explanations as to why the game is programmed this way, would love to hear the actual excuse they could come up with
- EA_Aljo
Community Manager
@TITAN_NHL wrote:
I definitely think the gamechanger program did more harm than good to the series overall. I honestly think the only way this game changes for the better is if EA actually balances the game based around the absolute top tier skilled players of the game. If it’s balanced at the absolute high end, it is balanced for everyone at that point and it truly will come down to skill gap at that point.
Just bothers me that we are constantly asked for video proof and clips of game issues that literally can be noticed within 1-2 games of playing online, which tells me these devs don’t actually play the game, or if they do it’s at such a casual level that they are ignorant to it. I would absolutely love if a dev could watch my club play for a night and witness the absolute trash we go through and give actual explanations as to why the game is programmed this way, would love to hear the actual excuse they could come up with
We ask for videos because we want to know exactly what you're experiencing. We don't all play this game exactly the same way. Some people use LT as intended while others do not. While chances are good we can play enough games to see what you're talking about, it still might not be the same. For example, I'm not a D1 player so I'm not going to experience the same issues as someone that high up. Regardless, if you are trying to bring something to our attention, we want to see exactly what you personally are experiencing. This is why videos are so crucial to reproducing these reports. That applies to everything. Not just LT'ing.
@EA_Aljo wrote:
@TITAN_NHL wrote:I definitely think the gamechanger program did more harm than good to the series overall. I honestly think the only way this game changes for the better is if EA actually balances the game based around the absolute top tier skilled players of the game. If it’s balanced at the absolute high end, it is balanced for everyone at that point and it truly will come down to skill gap at that point.
Just bothers me that we are constantly asked for video proof and clips of game issues that literally can be noticed within 1-2 games of playing online, which tells me these devs don’t actually play the game, or if they do it’s at such a casual level that they are ignorant to it. I would absolutely love if a dev could watch my club play for a night and witness the absolute trash we go through and give actual explanations as to why the game is programmed this way, would love to hear the actual excuse they could come up with
We ask for videos because we want to know exactly what you're experiencing. We don't all play this game exactly the same way. Some people use LT as intended while others do not. While chances are good we can play enough games to see what you're talking about, it still might not be the same. For example, I'm not a D1 player so I'm not going to experience the same issues as someone that high up. Regardless, if you are trying to bring something to our attention, we want to see exactly what you personally are experiencing. This is why videos are so crucial to reproducing these reports. That applies to everything. Not just LT'ing.
You and the devs have seen 5 years worth of L2 abuse online (and actually promote it often in plays of the month), yet it remains in the game and actually gets more effective every year.
- @Jagavekov Another thing you have to think of is if they change how LT/L2 works it could also change say how a player pivots which could be crucial for defense if they get that "stuck in the mud" feeling. But I have said it year after year if something isn't changing in the game it probably means they want it like that or they don't have a solution that works. They probably don't put the time into changing it because they view it as something minor to them.
- EA_Aljo
You're absolutely correct. Changes to pivoting would affect all positions. Defense would most definitely take a hit here. I'm constantly going in and out of backskate on defense so it's crucial to have control over pivoting.
@EA_Aljo wrote:You're absolutely correct. Changes to pivoting would affect all positions. Defense would most definitely take a hit here. I'm constantly going in and out of backskate on defense so it's crucial to have control over pivoting.
Very easy solution for this - have L2ing have harsher penalties to puck control, agility, speed, passing, balance, etc, so it is used less frequently on offense but still maintains effectiveness on defense. Not that hard.
- @Jagavekov Sounds good but..... Also LTing as a Dman with the puck to get yourself lined better would also take a hit. Also LTing when in the offensive zone as a dman to walk the line. Yeah losing the puck there would be just so awesome and my team would surely give me the puck at the point again..... said no one ever.
It's a big picture thing and they let it go for reasons like that. - EA_Aljo
If there was a very easy solution, it would have been done. Unfortunately, it's very rare anything is a simple fix.
@EA_Aljo wrote:If there was a very easy solution, it would have been done. Unfortunately, it's very rare anything is a simple fix.
So what is the problem with penalties to puck control, balance, passing, agility, speed, etc. when L2ing?
@KlariskraysNHL wrote:
@JagavekovSounds good but..... Also LTing as a Dman with the puck to get yourself lined better would also take a hit. Also LTing when in the offensive zone as a dman to walk the line. Yeah losing the puck there would be just so awesome and my team would surely give me the puck at the point again..... said no one ever.
It's a big picture thing and they let it go for reasons like that.Those penalties to stats wouldn't impact the only legitimate use of L2 with the puck, which is walking the line with d men. If you do that, you generally don't need a lot of speed, puck control, balance, etc., as you are going in a somewhat straight line a safe distance from defenders. If you walk the line with d men near enough to other players that they can hit or poke you, you should give up a breakaway.
- @Jagavekov Play sweaty 6s and get back to me. I'm sure Cale Makar could do all he does without speed, agility, and puck control too. Sorry but it wouldn't work. And majority of us 6s players asked for more separation ability with less friction while skating with the puck to blow by defenders who aren't skill gapping properly. So your idea undermines it all.
@KlariskraysNHL wrote:
And majority of us 6s players asked for more separation ability with less friction while skating with the puck to blow by defenders who aren't skill gapping properly. So your idea undermines it all.I think a majority of you 6's players who advocate for "less friction while skating with the puck" were sick of dealing with properly positioned d-men and are now happy that rather than play a proper gap, they need to anticipate a forward blowing by them for simply placing their stick in a passing lane.
Nobody who plays hockey should be happy to see that.
- @KidShowtime1867 Truth!
So @Jagavekov makes a reasonable argument for lowering the speed, agility and puck control for players skating backwards with the puck and the response is that 6s players want to be able to "blow by defenders" while skating backwards with the puck. Give me strength.....
@PlayoffError wrote:So @Jagavekov makes a reasonable argument for lowering the speed, agility and puck control for players skating backwards with the puck and the response is that 6s players want to be able to "blow by defenders" while skating backwards with the puck. Give me strength.....
Well to be fair, it was a prominent 6's player who said that themselves:
@KlariskraysNHL wrote:
And majority of us 6s players asked for more separation ability with less friction while skating with the puck to blow by defenders who aren't skill gapping properly. So your idea undermines it all.I have to admit that I might be slowly coming around to the nuance and intended META on the DSS.
So I've been adamant that this is how DSS should be utilized. This is from '22:
In the following clips from '23, you can see I can use DSS as a deterrent much like in '22:
I'm thinking I just need to practice some more chill.
@KidShowtime1867For sure there will be a learning curve when a new game comes out. Of course that also applies to people looking to exploit weaknesses in the game as well.
Not to take anything away from you, but your opponent in those two NHL 23 clips doesn't look terribly skilled. In either one he could have LT'd right at you and caused real problems.
With the game as it's currently tuned the big question is going to be how do you defend a player who can skate backwards at you with the puck while maintaining high speed, agility, puck control and the ability to make no-look behind-the-back passes? If you find a method that works against high-skill players let us know.It's almost funny. For years now people have wanted the game to force defenders to play more 'active defense'. Now EASHL is filled with players who just turn their back to you in an attempt to bait you into doing just that so they can spin around you or pass through you. Currently I'm having the most success playing a much more passive defensive style because being aggressive is just asking to get burnt.
@PlayoffError wrote:@KidShowtime1867For sure there will be a learning curve when a new game comes out. Of course that also applies to people looking to exploit weaknesses in the game as well.
Not to take anything away from you, but your opponent in those two NHL 23 clips doesn't look terribly skilled. In either one he could have LT'd right at you and caused real problems.
With the game as it's currently tuned the big question is going to be how do you defend a player who can skate backwards at you with the puck while maintaining high speed, agility, puck control and the ability to make no-look behind-the-back passes? If you find a method that works against high-skill players let us know.It's almost funny. For years now people have wanted the game to force defenders to play more 'active defense'. Now EASHL is filled with players who just turn their back to you in an attempt to bait you into doing just that so they can spin around you or pass through you. Currently I'm having the most success playing a much more passive defensive style because being aggressive is just asking to get burnt.
Oh yea, 100% this guy would've burned me by using LT. And I guess that's kind of the point - @Jagavekov 's suggestions on reducing speed, agility, etc while LTing with the puck would negate the effectiveness of an LT in the above scenarios. It would force the puck carrier to pass or shoot and you should be able to use DSS to force those decisions. A good LTer can skillfully avoid those decisions, but it's not realistic IMO.
