Forechecking Overhaul Thread

Question

HI All, back to another post where I breakdown my ideas and thoughts about fundamental hockey concepts that I believe should 100% be a in simulation hockey product. I don't think I got too much engagement on my previous post outlining how to fix in-zone play, but I'm bored and am feeling like an optimist so here goes nothing.

Issues with the current system:

1. There's forechecks in this game aren't real. I've posted about it enough, but to reiterate...the "1-2-2 aggressive" and "1-2-2 passive" forecheck are quite simply fictional and weakside locks don't involve pinching D so I have no idea what that description is about and honetly I don't find the AI to execute this forecheck in any consistient manner whatsoever so I believe this falls under the "fictional" category.

2. There's a forecheck (2-3) in this game that doesn't execute like a IRL 2-3. The F3 in the game simply stands at the blueline which is contrary to a IRL 2-3 where the F3 "stays on top of" the centerlane forward of the opponent. This means F3 has a "mark" and should be identifying the centerlane oppponent and covering them man-to-man. There should also always involve a D pinch on a 2-3. 2-3's are aggressive forechecks that are meant to really push for turnovers and have a very high risk of getting caught too deep if not executed correctly.

3. There's a lack of puck support from defenders when breaking out. This leads to some of these fictional forechecks working when they shouldnt. We should the option to pick how we'd like our off-puck D to position themselves as standing directly in-front of the net is quite literally the most useless position a D partner could put himself in.

4. The relationship between FC and NZ traps via the "bias" slider isn't really a correct way to implement the very real idea that teams will setup in traps at times and forecheck others. In my experience, these situations shouldnt be so "fluid" to a point where you're always making a decision on whether or not to foreheck/trap. There's very obvious regrouping scenarios (proabbly pretty hard to program while also feeling "right" imo) and breakout scenarios (easier I assume based on the exisitng "control breakout" strategy options currently in the game) where a team that usually would be forechecking would choose to trap instead. I believe there's a better solution here that would make the AI less "confused" by simply not having them always evaluate whether or not to pinch.

5. There are no true "neutral zone" strategies in this game. The "Neutral zone" options are really just either super passive forechecks, or they're your "control breakout defense" options. There are real life NZ strategies/concepts that imo should be in the game, but these "traps" are not "neutral zone" strategies, they're forechecks that happen to have a lot of people in the neutral zone.

So what are the solutions to these issues?

1/2. Add real forechecks to the game. So there should be a standard 1-2-2 (strong-side force), a weakside lock (1-2-2 weakside force), a 2-3 "strong" option where F1 is cutting behind the net off, so always forechecking to the inside of the puck while F2 is "crashing" on the board side of the puck, a 2-3 "weak" option where F1 is forechecking the board side of the puck while F2 is immediately sprinting to the weakside corner essentially (whateever arbitrary target position should match the target spot of the "behind the net" D breakout strategy) a 1-3-1, and a 1-4. Now you might ask "why are the 1-3-1 and 1-4 in the forecheck options" and that's a great question and the answer is actually simple. They are forechecks believe it or not. They are "forechecks" that forfeit the Ozone to setup a "trap" in neutral ice, but they are not "neutral zone" strategies which I'll cover in a second.

3. Include a "Dman Breakout" strategy category/setting and have "strong post", "weak post" and "behind the net" as options based on where you'd prefer your D partner to be. Hopefully these are all self-explanatory.

4. Redo the entire approach to FC's and NZ's strats. The sliding "bias" thing messes the AI up imo. There shouldnt be such a "fluid" scenario where you'd either go into a 1-4 or a 2-3. I get what they were thinking at the time, but I think we need to add a "control breakout defense" strategy option like we have for offense. This is where you could select your 1-4, 1-3-1, 1-2-2 red/blue but it really should only trigger when the AI also is triggered to enter their controlled breakout strats. If you want to run a 1-3-1 the entire time, go for it. If you want to only trap when there's a lull (line change, weird bounce, etc.) and the offense is methodically breaking out? You have that flexibility now.

5. Add real neutral zone concepts to the game. Not sure how feasible this is, but some sort of ability for the AI to recognize situations in the NZ where you're not "forechecking" but its also not a "control breakout" and believe me, I know this is probably an extrmely hard problem to solve compared to the others mentioned so far due to the subjectiviy or lack of "objective" criteria to "trigger the AI" but if we could somehow get them to recognize that it's a regroup but not full reset/line change scneario, I'd love to see some options to establish rules here. There's 3 "universal" options here IMO. One being the 1-2-2 "Split" where your F1 cuts off the opposing D's, and the middle 2 operate like a 1-2-2 "strong" but in the NZ where strong side F2 man marks the more than likely posted up wing, and the "weakside" F3 man marks the centerlane forward, hopefully forcing a contested pass and a dump-in at worst. Second, you'd have the 1-2-2 "force" or "push" where the F1 is the closest strong-side forward and they essentially run a "2-3 Weak" pattern to start where they attack the board side forcing a D-D pass and they follow the puck over while F2 and F3 man-mark the centerlane and the weakside turned strong side posted winger. Lastly, you'd have a 2-1-2 option where F1 and F2 both directly man mark the opposing D pair while F3 man marks the centerlane forward. Again, idk how you'd get the AI to "trigger" or "understand" these scenarios correctly, but it'd be a huge benefit to the game and way it flows.

So there you have it. Happy to draw anything up if anyone is confused but I'm not going to do it unless asked cause it's a little tedious tbh.

phomi99 · Answer

@Limp_KidzKit I'm talking more Hut champs but Yea no 2-3 slider is too easy to counter and like we found weakside lock is useless. Only option is 122 passive but on zero slider or 122 aggressive on max.

That's where a lot of the times people think "ice tilt" is at play because I'll start off at standard pressure and then 122 passive but if its not working then I switch to full press and 122 aggressive and then the opponent thinks ice tilt. Same thing applies to offline because I've noticed if you light up the team past 4 goals they switch to more aggressive offense and defense and then you gotta switch to conservative.

A lot of people don't study sliders and understand what to look for to counter someone or cater to ur play style.

Even shooting/cycle sliders. You put it in the middle and AI becomes confused. You put it max shooting and they stay still and turn back to the play a lot but max cycle they move too much around and always face the front of the play.

Lastly the slider don't block/block affects the Goalies so much. All the way on block and if you notice it, the goalie is doing the moving his head around animation which for whatever reason when the opponent shoots at that moment the goalies do that ridiculous unnecessary desperation save.

limp_kidzkit · Answer

@phomi99&nbsp;wrote:@Limp_KidzKitI'm talking more Hut champs but Yea no 2-3 slider is too easy to counter and like we found weakside lock is useless. Only option is 122 passive but on zero slider or 122 aggressive on max.That's where a lot of the times people think "ice tilt" is at play because I'll start off at standard pressure and then 122 passive but if its not working then I switch to full press and 122 aggressive and then the opponent thinks ice tilt. Same thing applies to offline because I've noticed if you light up the team past 4 goals they switch to more aggressive offense and defense and then you gotta switch to conservative.A lot of people don't study sliders and understand what to look for to counter someone or cater to ur play style.Even shooting/cycle sliders. You put it in the middle and AI becomes confused. You put it max shooting and they stay still and turn back to the play a lot but max cycle they move too much around and always face the front of the play.Lastly the slider don't block/block affects the Goalies so much. All the way on block and if you notice it, the goalie is doing the moving his head around animation which for whatever reason when the opponent shoots at that moment the goalies do that ridiculous unnecessary desperation save.Yep, there's so many little things to this game that people don't want to dive into and see exactly how they work. The default speed of the game online I feel like "hides" these strategic shortcommings a bit because everything happens so fast that a poorly executed pressure can sometimes work.i actually commented on a thread like this in the past where we saw a really poorly executed FC lead to a turnover and a goal. if you broke the play down from a strategic view, the offensive team made a huge blunder rather than the FC'ing team executing a FC to perfection, leading to a turnover. Some said it was a great FC, but in reality it was a complete overcommit that was bailed by an inferior opponent.&nbsp;People look at the results too much, not the process when it comes to strategies. It's why I really don't care about human involvement at the end of the day. These forechecks are quite simply not real or not executed properly when the AI are being "perfect" so why does human involvement matter? They're fundamentally flawed and that's what I'd like to see fixed.

phomi99 · Answer

@Limp_KidzKit&nbsp;I've been playing around with strats lately. Been asking ppl I played against to 1v1 me and test out new stuff because it's better to test it out with someone consecutively for consistency but no luck.I've found putting the slider in the middle screws up the AI. It's either all the way down or up. Weakside lock sounds good but it doesn't do anything.I personally use 131 because it's constant ppl straight lining at you so it slows them down.&nbsp; 122 blue is second best at stopping zone early players.

limp_kidzkit · Answer

@phomi99&nbsp;wrote:@Limp_KidzKit&nbsp;I've been playing around with strats lately. Been asking ppl I played against to 1v1 me and test out new stuff because it's better to test it out with someone consecutively for consistency but no luck.I've found putting the slider in the middle screws up the AI. It's either all the way down or up. Weakside lock sounds good but it doesn't do anything.I personally use 131 because it's constant ppl straight lining at you so it slows them down.&nbsp; 122 blue is second best at stopping zone early players.Funny enough, I've come to the same conclusion with the bias slider which is why I think it should be removed. I play offline NHL 20 and have settled on using the 1-2-2 aggressive with a 0/10 pinch and 6/6 on the bias slider as the AI in NHL20 are extremely aggressive so while the AI gives up some structure, I've found its the best possible solution to making the game harder on me when combined with my other slider edits. 2-3 leaves the middle open and leads to bad pinches, 1-2-2 passive gives up the boards, weakside lock does literally nothing..its like the "shooting" powerplay lol.I also have had decent success with the 1-2-2 blue when it comes to the AI playing me hard in the NZ. In NHL 20, the AI don't play very great NZ gaps so the 1-2-2's can be a bit wide open down the boards which is why I just have them FC, they seem to respond better to playing in transition than in a set NZ for whatever reason.Glad to hear someone is seeing similar results though. I think removing that bias slider would really improve the AI. Simply eliminates a "decision" or wahtever they're doing.."trigger" "target" idk what the preferred game dev word is.

kidshowtime1867 · Answer

@Limp_KidzKit&nbsp;wrote:Yep, there's so many little things to this game that people don't want to dive into and see exactly how they work.You got that right!

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