Slowly becoming pay to win

As I said in a previous topic you should really unlock these builds because I fear the future of WoC might be going back to the premade builds and custom builds will be on their way out.  I can see it now and it's scary.

McDavid-McDavid-McDavid

        Makar  -   Makar

              Hellebuyck

The only possible way I could see a team able to compete would be with red truculence team.  Just wait until they create the Tom Wilson player build.

Buddy.. I dont have time to give any more lessons on stawmen, you seem quite confused.. I taught you what it was in our last discussion after having had to show a hockey 101 video on how to properly defend a 2v1 because you were so confident you were right, and you had to attack me. I can't tell if you are this lost or just trying not to understand so you can't be wrong. Either way this is getting sad.

That isn’t a strawman. I’m not misrepresenting your position and then arguing against it.

You did. 

"Anyone who has played high level EASHL/WoC understands that outcomes are driven far more by gap control, defensive positioning, puck protection, timing, and reads than by what premade template a skater selected. This isn’t a claim that all confident players think the same, it’s a reflection of how experienced players actually evaluate games."

That doesn't negate the P2W statement I made. Please read the definition I have given, thanks!

"Saying premade builds are “better” only matters if they actually decide games, and in World of Chel they don’t."

They can. They don't always.. but they have and they will. The build can do things other builds simply can't. It can be the difference in a game. If someone plays with an all-star team in vs and the opponent is an AHL team the guy with the all star team will have a better chance to win, and his players being better can decide that game.

"What premades really do is raise the floor by offering convenient, forgiving setups, not raise the ceiling or override fundamentals. That makes them a convenience advantage, not a pay-to-win one. "

The mental gymnastics on display here.. If I'm able to skate fast AND have a better shot I can raise the ceiling of what I'm able to do. This is not even an argument.. I can't believe this needs to be said. I would argue both the floor AND ceiling are raised but the ceiling is raised more.. a bad player CAN make use of more speed given that they're out of position more often so this raises the floor (with boosts to other attributes to shooting and hitting it will also raise their ceiling a bit, as even poor shots will go in a little more often) however, a skilled player can take full advantage of the added attributes. This raises their ceiling, and probably doesn't change their floor much at all as they're always gonna be effective.

"Again... that’s not a strawman. I didn’t replace your P2W claim with “stick skills”

Please read your other quote just below, thanks! 

"Those of us with good stick skills will continue to be unphased by premade builds. "

Are you admitting it is P2W and that's why it's not a strawman? If not, then it is... if stick skills negates the p2w premise by your logic it creates a strawman based on the definition given for p2w. 

"I just disagree that they make WoC “pay to win”

Based on the Cambridge definition please tell me how you've come to that conclusion. It does not mean you get auto wins.. it gives an advantage. You've admitted it gives an advantage in a post before.. this IS p2w even if it's not a free win. I'm not sure where the disconnect is.

Please put your argument for why this isn't P2W in premise format given the definitions I have supplied. 

"Anyone who is confident with their in-game skills doesn't give a single hoot about these premade builds."

That's a pretty stupid blanket statement. Do you realize how many of your posts or statements start with "Anyone" or something of the like. I'm sorry but you're just flat out dense, and trying very hard to come across as anything but. 

Furthermore, where are these anyones? Where is your support here? This is my thread I created to call EA out, not a discussion on it. There are youtubers or "influencers" who are saying the same thing, google it yourself.  Most people on here seem to in agreement as well. The discord group I'm in which has some of the best players in the game have also agreed and discussed it. Seems like it's just you and Aljo -who happens to be directly affiliated with EA- who disagree. 

You know what that means? It means there is evidence to support that most people seem to be in agreement that this is becoming pay to win, regardless of skill level.

Here's a thought. Maybe you aren't right about everything and can't speak for everyone, or "anyone" but yourself.

I don't bother reading most of your posts. You have been on these forums for years, responding the same way, talking down to people. Quite depressing. Are you a sociopath? As well as just simply a contrarian?

Aljo and Kid will defend this game regardless.  They’ve both been proven wrong and then they’ll just twist the words to suit their narrative.  

I've played with Aljo and his crew and we have beaten some of the great special builds out there when controlled from a lesser talent.  But my set group I usually play with has gone against some teams with the special builds and they dominated.  But also remember we play by LG rules so we aren't using any red traits and we have things like wheels, truc, and so many other OP X-Factors banned.  So we hamper ourselves too.

I run Truculence+ and can confirm Jean Spectre (especially when L2ing) can easily shrug off hits. Again, this isn't about how it's still technically possible to beat teams that run these builds; P2W doesn't mean guaranteed wins, it never has - it's that you can throw extra cash and get an advantage, no matter how insignificant. Imagine me substituting a pawn out for a queen in chess because because I threw a fiver at Chess HQ. McDavid get just overclock it's Xfactors and people are unironically defending this?

In a perfect world skill will always reign supreme but this is the real world and this is EA NHL - Nothing is perfect but we can always try to chase it - In my humble opinion, these builds are taking us in the opposite direction, not that anyone with the power to change it seems to care, mind you.

This is the last I'll say. Clearly, I've ruffled some feathers.

No one is denying that some of the premade builds have advantages. They obviously do. Some have stat distributions, AP efficiency, or X-Factor combinations that are more optimized than what most people are running on customs.

Where I disagree is the jump from “this is stronger on paper” to “this makes WoC pay-to-win.” That conclusion doesn’t automatically follow.

Pay-to-win implies that spending meaningfully determines outcomes either by invalidating non paying options or by deciding games between competent players. That’s not what we’re seeing in practice. Custom builds are still viable. Organized teams still lose to other organized teams regardless of who’s running premades. Games are still decided by reads, positioning, stamina management, and execution far more often than by loadout math.

Yes, paying gives you an edge. But edges exist everywhere in competitive games; meta builds, optimized strategies, role specialization. The critical question isn’t “does this give an advantage?” but “does this advantage overwhelm skill and decision-making?” So far, it doesn’t.

Premade builds raise the floor by being forgiving and efficient, especially for less experienced players. They don’t raise the ceiling in a way that breaks competitive balance. A strong player with a premade is harder to play against—but a strong player is already hard to play against. The build amplifies what’s there; it doesn’t replace it.

That doesn’t mean the system is beyond criticism. Locking certain stat combinations or AP totals behind a paywall is a bad look, and it’s fair to worry about where that trend could go. If future builds start pushing further and making customs non-competitive or forcing everyone into paid templates, then yes, that would cross into pay-to-win territory.

But we’re not there yet.

Right now, this is better described as paid optimization, not buying wins. The danger isn’t that WoC has already become pay-to-win—it’s that EA needs to be careful not to let it become that.

I don't see how I'm wrong when you can still beat these teams without using pre-made builds. It would be another story if it were impossible to win against them.

You can purposely deflect by crying strawman all you want but your "just play better" mentality comes across as disingenuous. Aljo has already brought up concerns with these builds (not that he has much of a say), and the game has already doubled down with McJesus - The odds we'll actually see fully maxed out, 99's across the board builds are only getting higher and you want to just sweep this under the rug? This isn't the type of hill you should be dying on

All I can do is make sure your voices are heard. When I say I'm passing something on to the team, that's what I'm doing.

As far as full 99s go, I sincerely hope that never happens unless custom builds can also be made to match. I'd much rather just have everyone on an even playing field regardless of the overalls. So, if everyone is 99, it still comes down to a difference in individual skill and teamplay.

I think the major problem is if custom builds that everyone has access to cannot come anywhere close to the premade builds for sale. For example, if it is impossible to closely replicate using a custom “sniper” build the premade “bullseye” sniper build with the character. Like one or two attribute points I’ll roll my eyes, but if it is a massive attribute difference that is 100% pay to win and a problem.

I absolutely get what you're saying. However, I can't agree it's pay to win. The outcome is mostly dependent on how well a team plays together rather than one person's higher stats. And if there are multiple players with that build, they still have to be good enough to compete with them. These builds don't buy your wins. They will help you earn them. They will add a boost to the skill someone already has.

I have always felt uneasy with the custom builds (and the wild associated characters - aliens and moose?), but I’m very concerned these new prebuilt builds based on pro hockey players is massively stepping over the line. I am not happy about them at all.

I would at least like the option to disable the skins. Even better if we had a separate mode where only custom builds were allowed. I haven't had the chance to play against anyone using the newest builds so I'll see how things go this week. In the past though, pre-made builds have given the clubs I regularly run with little to no issue.