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Iron_Guard8's avatar
4 years ago

Class Discussion: Citron

We arrive at Citrons as I rotate from zombie to plant in our class discussion journey. Citron has changed a LOT in BfN, so the layout will be a little different from the others.

Citrons were extremely obnoxious to deal with in GW2 for a long time, at least the beam versions anyway. They could hide most of their bulk behind a rock while using their beam at extreme range and were better at sniping than Cacti or Captain Deadbeards; Frozen Citrons were especially egregious as even if they didn’t take you out, they left you frozen and vulnerable for other plants to do so. Electro-Cirtron got nerfed a bit too much and is generally considered to be a weaker variant along with Toxic Citron (although Toxic is my favorite Citron variant regardless of that). With the changes to their damage at range, I feel they overdid it a bit, but Citron is still a decent character in GW2, even if some people just stay in ball form and just drive around like that all match. He’s less of a tank and more of a hit and run type character that can tank in a pinch when needed thanks to high health and shields.

Most of the BfN changes I like or am ok with, but Citron in BfN is one of the most annoying things in the game to play against (Rose can be worse but we’ll deal with that when we get to her soon). The shield is too good and comes back too fast, stacked Citrons can spawn camp to the point of insanity (I encountered this exact situation on Preserve Pastures where 3 Citrons took turns putting their shields up and camped like mad, we eventually got them, but that was awful), which is the worst change to the character. I actually am ok with their main weapon as it avoids what would have been the return of them using that beam at max range snipe issue that plagued GW2 before the Citron nerfs, which damage drop off could have also helped with. I’m not 100% against them being tanks, but they really did make them too much like OW’s Reinhardt, and like BfN’s Scientist, force you to attack or use an important ability instead of both like we had in GW2.

The main weapon of Citron variants in GW2 are various beam weapons, with some important exceptions like Electro, Toxic, and Iron. The damage attenuation of the beams has a huge effect on their long range damage, so they are far more effective at short and medium ranges which makes sense with their high health and shields; they’re designed to as a kind of plant answer to the zombie All-Star. The beam versions could really use the overheat indicator from BfN. The other 3 have ammo instead of overheating and Electro can charge their weapon up as well, so they play differently from their beam using brethren. In GW2 you have the Juice Cannon that uses ammo and fires low damage projectiles at a high rate of fire. I don’t mind this weapon at all, and considering the character’s health and shield again, it fits.

BfN Citron shield is handled differently as it’s not an ability but an alternate of the main weapon. BfN Citron shields are far too good; even after some nerfing, they have too much health and come back to quickly. The ‘Peachy’ upgrade can make the shield regenerate even faster, although it’s not a huge effect from my experience. I could be down with this ability if they made it less powerful overall (less health, slower regeneration), and let us zoom in with the juice cannon, but as it stands now, this shield is far too good and it’s compounded when multiple Citrons work together.

In their regular mode, Citrons have their shield, EMPeach, or they can change to ball form. Their shield in GW2 is useful but not too good, unlike in BfN. The Mood Shield alternate ability is one I don’t use all that often as while it can be good to stop an alpha strike and I like how it changes color as it’s damaged, but it just doesn’t last long enough compared to the basic shield. EMPeach is both annoying to be hit with and another of those specific counter abilities like Engineer sonic abilities and Chompers, in that it’s designed to stun mechs longer than anyone else. I’ve never been a huge fan of stuns, and this one also hurts. Like Imp’s gravity grenade (more in GW2 than BfN), it’s an ability that can be frustrating to deal with, and in GW2 is even worse when a Frozen Citron uses it on you and can stun/freeze you in succession!

GW2 Citrons swap to their ball mode where they can engage their Hyper Ball and Spin Dash abilities or change back to their normal form, but can’t attack, use their shield, or lob their EMPeach at zombies. Hyper Ball is used by Citron ‘ballers’ a lot, where they stay in ball form and just drive around, sometimes using spin dash to attack, but often just being evasive and rather useless to their team. Why this playstyle is as widespread as it is, I have no idea, but I’ve seen them on all platforms. For the rest of us, hyper ball is a great ability to get in or out of combat, maybe a bit too good really. Spin Dash is dangerous for low health zombies and is great for taking out the browncoats at the flag of power.

BfN Citrons don’t have a ball mode and instead have their Navel Laser, EMPeach, and Spin Dash available and turn into balls when they sprint. Navel Laser was too good at first, especially when you combine Pulp Powered with Juiced and get a wide laser that you could use to wipe out an entire zombie team, whereas now it’s devastating against AI in PvE, but not all that practical in PvP, especially since your main power in BfN is to use that shield and block as much as possible, which you can’t do while using the laser. Spin Dash in BfN isn’t all that different from GW2 although it does too much damage and is deadly for Imps, plus it comes back a lot more often. This encourages you to use it a lot and this makes it more dangerous than GW to the point it needs to have its damage reduced. BfN does encourage more ability usage than GW and GW2, mostly through shorter cooldowns, but I wish they would not have gone this far as you end up reliant on them over your main weapon at times, and this is one of those examples. EMPeach is again an annoying ability to get hit with, and drains mech fuel according to the wiki.

As for the model; I don’t hate the BfN version, although it looks very plastic compared to GW2’s version, but it’s not one of my favorites either. Some of the customizations for the character are excellent though, and both legendary hats are great too, I especially love the bagel trophy one.

Citron is so different between GW2 and BfN that it’s hard to know where to go with it in a future game. I’m not dead-set against them being a tank style character, but I know many prefer his hit-n-run playstyle in GW2. Now that playstyle can be obnoxious, and is why a lot of people strongly dislike Brainium Basher, among other reasons, but their shields are far too good in BfN and being given the choice to sit there with your shield on or attack makes the character less fun to play, even as it also becomes a tough nut (fruit) to crack. I really don’t know what the community would like the most from this character. I’d like variants back, but would it be best to change it again and keep some similarities from the GW2 and BfN versions, but taking it in a new direction?

5 Replies

  • @Iron_Guard8 This was the first character I mastered in gw2.

    I think Torchwood does the pure tank role better than either version of citron tbh. High health, leaf shield comes with downsides, slow, will slaughter at close range but fall off hard at longe range, and is usually focused fire to buy time for his team. Iron citron also leans towards this more.

    Ballers are annoying but they're usually just free vanquishes rather than a threat.

    The beam was annoying before the fix but now I'd say it's pretty acceptable now. I prefer the non laser citron variants like iron and toxic. Frozen is annoying to go up against because hes a class with a stun and ice powers, he was always gonna be annoying. Electro needs a buff but I dont think he's as terrible as everyone says.

    Mood shield is a good alternative to peel shield and it represents its health better but your far better off waiting until your losing a fight to use it.

    I always hated how impeach did a bit of damage to non z mechs in gw2 and I'm glad bfn removed that, but now its far to effective when used with 75 Insta dash of death.

    Why did popcap make a 75 Insta dash for citron? Did they expect every imp to be overhealed when fighting a citron? Its a busted ability and I prefer being able to at least see citron get into ball form in gw2 first.

    Naval laser was a pain to fight at the start of bfn. It could shred space stations and basically brought back the beam problem on steroids. Even at the end of bfn good aim with it is still deadly.

    The empeach removing z mech fuel is too powerful of a counter since 2 citrons can shutdown any z mech offensive.

    Now the shield.

    It's too good. They missed the point of Reinhardt completely being defenseless at range and being in a game where its 6v6 close quarters so Reinhardt's shield can be focused fired. This isn't possible in bfn where its 12v12/8v8 with people playing multiple of the same characters except battle arena but arena sucks and the shield can still soak up too much damage before the zombies get wiped. Overwatch also had the ultimates designed to team wipe even the toughest of characters and shields, bfn doesn't have this. Citron being able to REGENERATE HEALTH while his shield up is nothing short of bs and another thing they failed to learn from Reinhardt. Combine this with the empeach, 75 damage spin dash, and citrons high close range damage and you have the most annoying character to 1v1 in the game from the plant team.

    Even without his shield he can easily escape with his high health and empeach than just wait for the shield to quickly recharge.

    I don't hate his new model but like you said it looks plastic and the sunglasses from gw2 looked a lot better for his cool guy aesthetic and his body not being connected by the little stalk like it was in gw2 leads to an awkward walk cycle of bouncing up and down in bfn.

    I feel like the gw2 version but with a few qol changes would be the best version of the character.
  • Iron_Guard8's avatar
    Iron_Guard8
    Legend
    4 years ago

    @stukapooka I really don't like the BfN Shield at all. It's far too good and comes back so quickly. One Citron can be a pain, but multiples working together are an absolute abomination, and if you add in even a single Sunflower, it's even worse. We both brought that up, but it needs to be said again and again. It can't stay that way in a new game. Reduce it's health and make it require a longer regen time at the very least.

    Ballers are so weird. I had one the other day on MoonBase Z that kept charging our spawn point on the mini game at the end and would rob me of the vanquish by pushing into the spawn room and timing out. That was annoying as one could imagine.

    Electro is ok, but not great. I'd agree he's not the best but not awful, and could use a buff. Still my least favorite though, Toxic is my personal favorite.

    My first mastered in GW2 was Vampire Flower.

    Mood Shield needs a duration buff, even just a small one, and it'd be fine. 

    Frozen Citron, like most ice characters are indeed going to be annoying, but at least the others can be shot, unlike when they had full max range damage and lots of cover to exploit, since their hit box does not extend to the weapon.

    The dash in BfN is just too good. It comes back very fast and does too much damage. It was still useful without being OP in GW2 and it needs to return to that level.

    You almost never see Navel Laser in PvP anymore. It used to be everywhere, but normally when a Citron uses it in PvP, that Citron is vanquished a couple seconds later, barring having a Sunflower attached to them anyway.

  • stukapooka's avatar
    stukapooka
    Legend
    4 years ago
    @Iron_Guard8 Yep it's far too powerful and misses the point of Reinhardt's shield, revert back to the gw2 peel shield and throw in more alts.

    When the baller tries to block you but you're playing Superbrainz.

    Iron and toxic are my favorite citrons.

    Mood shield could definetly be just a little better.

    Ice variants are the reason yeti is the hardest boss hunt imo. I dont hate them but they can definetly be annoying especially when you don't have a healer to remove the effect. Definetly glad the sniper citron no longer exists.

    The dash being instant imp killing damage is just stupid and I seriosuly wonder who thought it was a good idea. In gw2 you saw a citron was in ball form and you had to assume it was always a threat to you unless you saw them use it.

    Naval laser use to be stupidly good then it fell off, aimbot citron ai still use it pretty effectively though.
  • Iron_Guard8's avatar
    Iron_Guard8
    Legend
    4 years ago

    Yeti Boss hunt took us the longest to beat on hard/craaazzy. Only Spooky Squash was all that close to get done for our duo. Sasquatch wasn't that easy but very doable when you know what to do. Brothers Gnomus was pretty easy. And yeah, all that ice damage from not only the Yeti but all the arctic troopers, yeti imps exploding, and so on, made it super hard. Of course, him wandering all over the place when you had the buff to take him down made it worse. It's the most difficult elite boss in BfN Ops too, and was the last one I defeated in the game, before they added more (I think just the elite Hypno-Flower Queen was added after the original ones). 

  • stukapooka's avatar
    stukapooka
    Legend
    4 years ago
    @Iron_Guard8 Yeti was just everything annoying in game rolled into one boss hunt.

    Sasquatch isnt terrible once you know about the gardens as your teamates usually come to your position when they see you're not moving.

    Squash isn't really that bad if your team at least knows to do the tombstones as the candy can be excruciatingly micro managed by one player.

    Brothers gnomus hardest factor are the tankier gnome minions the actual boss and puzzle is a pushover and I've beaten it on crazy many times.

    Hovergoat and Torchwood's addition to the roster also added much needed firepower for both teams and people playing them 99% of the time know what they're doing.

    Really miss these hunts in gw2 and I hope we get them again someday as the elite bosses in bfn just didn't scratch that difficulty itch outside of yeti who's just bs.

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