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stukapooka's avatar
5 years ago

How a lack of variety (and variants) killed ops.

Warning: long post ahead.

When it comes to bfn ops many players hold it as a downgrade in regards to previous entries in pvz shooters and heres why.

1. Lack of variants=lack of enemies: by removing variants I'd argue ops suffered an even bigger loss of gameplay variety than multiplayer by losing special waves and difficulties built around the sub classes, a few examples of these being gw1's flag march where only flag zombies and soldier variants appeared with only tank commanders appearing on easy difficulty, or sneak attack where browncoats and camo rangers would spawn past your defenses and closer to the gardens.

Having variants created more problems for defenders in terms of issues to deal with that are not available in bfn such as zombies never having to worry about the waves using ice enemies that could freeze them or their spawnables in place and make taking damage due to being swarmed a real issue ir plants never having to worry about fire and toxic damage chipping away at their health and being a real pain on CRRRAZY, instead your fighting the same handful of enemies with the same handful of abilities.

2. Lack of special waves: gw1 and 2 had a variety of special waves that could significantly hurt teams not prepared for them such as AMBUSH in gw2 where there would be no resting period for a team to heal and fortify their defenses or a wave to rescue a champion where a team could gain a fifth member who was a champion class that would fight for the rest of the game and could even revive downed teammates or win the wave for the group.

Gw1 had the most brutal special waves as they were quite hard and would punish the player for failing such as turning off zomboss satellites that if failed would call a air strike on the plants position forcing players to dodge and would damage the garden, no damage to players, or having to defend mini gardens depending on player count, or variant dependable ones such as only wrestling stars combined with exploding fan imps/ gw2's artic troopers combined with yeti imps.

Despite relying on variants there were a few spawnables only waves in both hames such as grumps where only newspaper/map zombies would attack you, huge waves where a wave is twice as long and numerous, or improvised armor where armored zombies would attack.

3. Ai are limited and bosses dont have unique minions: bfn sadly removed iconic zombies from the game such as newspaper zombies, flag zombies, blitzers, karate zombies despite appearing in pve do not help zen sensei, saucer imps, backup dancers, and vampires.

In gw1 and 2 when a elite boss wave happened bosses would attack with unique minions such as backup dancers assisting disco zombie in gw1 and party variants aiding the fight in gw2, baron von bats had his vampire zombies that if unattended could wipe out defenses with their healing, Gargauntaur lost blitzers with the unique factor of being the only ai with player abilities that could send defending plants flying, yeti imps stayed, big stump was assisted with armored variants and spanwables such as rock pea in his waves, torchwood got fire variants, royal sunflower got a mystic flower army.

4. Elite bosses aren't enough and less bosses overall: bfn blended bosses together such as giga gargs and big stump being blended into torchwood and regular Gargs and the only truly new boss in bfn is bitter dill as the new plant bosses are ripped from boss hunt and the elite mechanics are reused for multiple bosses just delete 1/3 of thier health then usually lead them to a area on the map or relieve boss hunt ptsd 3 times and you win.

5. Baby difficulty and wave advancement: gw1 and 2 are noticeably harder than bfn due to actually punishing reckless team members and punishes teams by keeping a downed player out for the rest of the wave rather than just respawning after a few seconds, chomper is now able to eat zombies regardless of armor, shoot them from range, and use a poisionos crowd control ability allowing him to dispatch waves much faster without having to rely on a team to balance out his weaknesses because he now no longer has any crippling flaws that could get him elimnated in the wave.

Players can easily sprint away from combat.

Gardenator is tankier than gw2 ops despite less waves to go through.

Sunflower queens crit zone is now in her face so there is no strategy in attacking her belly when she is vulnerable.

Lack of evacuations that require teams to fight through a boss that shows up to stop you alongside moving through the map.

Set difficulty online in bfn.

Being in the center of the map prevents most forms of environmental death like being knocked off the map by a all star.

Bfn special waves such as no damage now only require that certain amount of damage not be done.

Cooldowns on spawnables leave them unavailable for most of the game forcing players to spam rocket bots and pea cannons, not to mention the lack of spawnables overall.

Overheal is another safety net that makes players even harder to vanquish.

Waves spawn in classes much faster due to a 5 wave format so no real buildup is achieved when they do arrive.

Wave format adds 25 seconds by pacing out enemy groups.

Thank you for reading this long post.

7 Replies

  • Quite the long post, but then, so are most of mine!

    1-I do like variants but had that made the AI versions of players with variable upgrades (and added more characters), they could have varied them up at least a bit. You don't even see wizards in Ops at all. Had they launched with more new characters, and added them faster over the life of the game, this could have mitigated the lack of variants at least partially. The blandness of the variety of enemies we fight in Ops is a major problem with BfN. The lack of AI variants (like more shield variants and such), hurts here too.

    2-The special waves are not only limited, they aren't even working properly at times. Getting the 'huge wave' bonus wave and then the next wave is actually larger, doesn't work well. In GW1, as you point out, some of those special waves were crazy difficult, even on normal difficulty (no one take any damage at all as just one example), but we lost the mini gardens and such for GW2 but it still has it's own unique challenge waves as well. The fact that we only have a couple of these in BfN and even then, they don't always work, is a major letdown.

    3-I've mentioned the lack of special minions before as well. Where are the backup dancers for the disco zombie boss, the vampire zombies for Baron Von Bats, and so on? Part of why I do like BfN, but not as much as the earlier games is this lack of variety. One of the things I love about the tower defense games and Heroes is the massive variety in plants and zombies, BfN falls far short in this regard. 

    4-Part of this issues is that instead of the actual 3 individual slots, we just get the one and it comes off odd and feels less engaging. I really like the elite bosses overall as they're like much shorter versions of GW2's boss hunts, but they really needed to balance these better as some are actually pretty easy (disco boss), and some are really tough (yeti). These should have been made more unique and make the challenge level more equal across the board.

    5-GW1 is the hardest of the bunch and I feel that GW2 tuned the difficulty very well. BfN does feel like it's always on the easy difficulty level, but then we can't select a level which I also miss. I almost always play on normal in GW1 and GW2 Ops, but sometimes got to Craaazzzzy or easy to get quests done. Chomper could be a liability in Ops in GW1 and 2 as they are so limited to melee. I'd say that Chomper in BfN needs some tweaks as it is though.

    I'm mostly indifferent to sprinting. If they remove it for the next game I'm not going to complain, and I'm sick of people running away all the time in BfN, but I'm largely used to it now.

    I liked the grave/garden idea from the GW games more than the machine versions in BfN. It is rare that I see it take much damage.

    I've not noticed that Sunflower Queen crit thing. That beam is nasty in GW2 and largely ignorable in BfN as she doesn't do it for long.

    I really miss evacuations. They could be rough in GW1 especially, but I love that whole idea and it needs to come back for a new game.

    Difficulty settings would be very welcome.

    I've never been knocked off an OPs map in any of the games, I've had bosses and AI teammates do that though! Not even with the berserkers, have I been knocked off. Of course, many of the Ops maps in the games you can't be unless in specific spots anyway.

    I actually prefer the BfN version of 'no damage to the garden/grave' as a single stray soldier bullet could ruin that special wave mission in GW1 and GW2 and that was frustrating, especially when questing in GW2.

    I think the cooldown system could work and with full Ops teams it's not terrible, but we need more consumables available as we just don't have enough of any of the consumables in BfN. 

    Overheal is another thing I'm mostly neutral on. If it goes away, I'm not going to worry about it. Healing in general is just too strong in BfN though.

    Wave spawning feels very odd in BfN and it gets annoying when you see icons somewhere and nothing spawns there at all. In GW1 and 2 you may get a spawn spot that is only like 2 basic browncoats, but something will spawn at every icon.

    The waves can feel long and tedious as they work in BfN and they're often so spread out that the only threat is with a bad team or when they spawn too close to the objective.

    Other things I would bring up:

    • Dill pickle boss is super annoying with the knockback spam. I'm glad to see more bosses, but they need to be more interesting instead of just obnoxious.
    • More variety in special waves is needed. (and fix the ones that aren't working properly).
    • Let us use AI teammates for solo Ops.
    • Give us the option to enchant the location.
    • More than 1 spot to spawn the objective like we had in GW1 and GW2 would be better than just 1 spot available.
  • stukapooka's avatar
    stukapooka
    Legend
    5 years ago

    @Iron_Guard8Gw1 was hard due to the more frustrating mechanics that gw2 removed for actual difficulty from the enemy rather than the game itself.

    Tge gardenator just doesnt feel pvzish imo gw1 has the best garden (it looks so innocent) and 2 has the best tombstone look.

    Gw1 Chomper in ops was a meme (fighting the baron was especially painful due to the self heal per bite), he was better in gw2 with more health, regeneration, and chomp cannon (a very underrated ability imo) but on higher difficulties felt like imp in that he's not worthless and with a good player and team can be a massive help but their job is definitely made harder and neither of them should be stacked unless you know what you're doing or you're once again just memeing.

    I'm not denying that garden warfare chomper wasn't a gimmicky character in the first place but I honestly liked playing him more than bfn chomper who just feels kind of there (especially with the emphasis now on nightcap being the assassin character), I was in huge favor of the mass voted back chomp rework where players would have to use the aim button to swallow attack or a potential buff could be to give chomper health for eating items like newspapers and outhouses as it would encourage players to attack more armored enemies with swallow attacks.

    Wizard feels like torchwood and hovergoat in that they released them but never really made them attack in ops, wizard has multiplayer ai and wood/goat had team ops ai.

    Special ai zombies feel like they were left out due to time as we both know bfn was made under a very short time and the special zombies felt like they were created to fight players specifically and crush ai as they could knock them back, heal from basic attacks that wiped out pots due to their slower fire rate, get onto rooftops (once again bfn lacks verticality and it really hurts the maps unlike gw1 and 2 where the high ground was only accessible by creative players and was abundant in areas) by karate zombie spinning into the air or back up dancers showing their sick moves, and their respective bosses dont feel the same without their iconic minions.

    We also lost the pirate themed zombies which is a shame.

    I miss the spawnables and I feel like the cooldown is unnecessary in the game and it kills the defensive strategy in ops, just remove it and actually balance the spawnables if you dont want spam of one character. I also really miss the missing spawnables like I dont care if snapdragon or laser bean was a meme I miss them and pea cannon is now just repeater (just make pea cannon shoot and reload faster than repeater as a difference to balance them).

    Bitter dill feels like the plant yeti in that hes more fast and annoying than actually deadly.

    The lack of bots was a straight downgrade from gw2 no debate.

    The lack of unique bosses isnt helping the series in anyway.

    Elite bosses are a neat concept that was sadly executed poorly as some were way too easy like disco zombie just spinning but he's invincible (imagine if you had to stop a dance section and if you failed the map would be swarmed with backup dancers. and I would prefer full on boss hunt events but I wouldn't mind seeing this return more refined in a gw3.

    Sunflower queens beam melted you on crazy and why it was so important to attack her as she charged as she was defenseless in that period.

    As you said constant new characters could've prevented stagnation from lack of variants but we only got 1 truly new class and 2 ai's in a whole year and only one map added to the ops playlist.

    Bfn stretches and inflates its waves to try and make players feel like their involved but ut really just predictably narrows the ai into kill groups as they arrive really fast.

    Evacuations made the ending in ops feel earned abd the presence of actually losing the game and team members was there.

    Graveyard Ops still has the glitch of an enemy spawning out of the map and ruining the game.

    Super bean ai acts like he forgot why he showed up in bfn where he was once the most dreaded boss on crazy in gw2 (a boss hunt with a chili bean was found in gw2 files.

    Certain difficulties allowed certain deadlier variants to attack like toxic brainz only showing up crazy or tank commander on easy, it really varied the threat in each difficulty and the difficulty sped up the waves each class and variants would arrive on faster.

    Overall if bfn can break even for another game I hope they can truly build up ops in a potential gw3 to make it the mode it deserves to be.

  • ejhsega's avatar
    ejhsega
    5 years ago

    I would like to see most of this in phase 3.  I like the added sprint button, and am indifferent about overheal.  I think consumables should have their own in game currency as I hated running out in GW or having it compete with variant unlocks.

  • stukapooka's avatar
    stukapooka
    Legend
    5 years ago
    @ejhsega I think we should be able to use them whenever and wherever as running out was a pain in garden warfare but only being to use two per game due to the time cool down is just as dumb in bfn imo.
  • ejhsega's avatar
    ejhsega
    5 years ago

    Using the defenses when and where ever would be the best.

  • As much as I like PvZ: GW games, bfn showed us the ugly side of EA once again and it has crippled the fanbase if not killed it for most people like me. I would not be exited for any new GW game unless they fix this one. I spend money on a game that was supposed to be a GW game, not s single player pvz story game. It lacks too much for it to be even considered one of the GW games, the irony in it being called bfn and not GW3. 

    As much as I hate my favorite franchise dying, you should not support EA and PopCap games after everything they have done to GW, Battlefied and Battlefront. If you keep supporting them they will not change, ever. Unless the whole company changes people.

  • stukapooka's avatar
    stukapooka
    Legend
    5 years ago
    @DroneIceSoldier You're right we should not accept their behavior, its like a cycle EA goes through by creating a few good games to win back public opinion and then breaks its back over its knee by being complete greedy ***holes and repeats every few years.

    Pvz 3 is also a perfect example of this it wasn't created by someone who genuinely cared for the series and to be a genuine sequel it was created to throw out a mobile copycat that they could stuff with as many microtransactions as possible.

    You're not the only one I've seen give up on pvz after bfn (their twitter was in flames after the it takes two garden warfare post), heck the public opinion is really sour right now and a lot of people have moved on to other franchise despite what a few circlejerks on the subreddit would tell you otherwise.

    The only reason I'd really come back is seeing a true gw3 that acts as an apology for whatever the heck bfn was meant to be and brings back old maps.

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