Plants Suck
Yeah, I feel better in my heart now I've expressed my opinion about this side. It isn't even one class that sucks, it's all of them. Fix Rose Buff Sunflower Fix Chomper Buff Cactus Buff Peashoo...
Forum Discussion
@EA_Andy wrote:
Hey @Zaheen1337
Is there a particular way you would like to see the plants "buffed" or "fixed" ? Any ability changes you'd like to see?
- Andy -
I don't think there are too many changes that need to be done to plant side honestly, other than Rose, and maybe Sunflower.
I think you guys took Rose in the complete wrong direction with the "rework." If you wanted her to be a supportive character, why did you leave her attack untouched and gut her utility abilities?
My concern in terms of balance is that Zombies don't have many drawbacks. They're too safe.
Captain Deadbeard is good both at range as well as in close-quarters combat. His barrel ability gives him extreme mobility and defenses (I don't know why you would buff this, ever). And he really doesn't have any drawbacks at range, whereas the sniper counterpart on plant side, Cactus, is ONLY good at range, and has no escape/defenses available at her disposal other than an unreliable trap or 2.
Super Brainz is another character that is good at both range and melee. His aimed attack (especially in his variants) allow for him to deal tons of damage at a quick rate usually while melting down enemies. Not only that, but his abilities leave him hyper mobile and deal a heavy amount of damage as well, not to mention, he's got survivability in fights too. If we compare to his counterpart (which I assume is Chomper), he completely outclasses him.
Imp is another character with very minor drawbacks. He deals fair amounts of damage in his imp form, and is very difficult to lock down/target since he is so small. What he lacks in survival stats, he more than makes up for in mobility, utility, and offensive stats.
Scientist is a character class that is much too well rounded. Not only does he heal, but he completely outclasses his counterpart (Sunflower) in damage, mobility, and utility. Scientist classes have heavy damage, a way into and out of a fight, and ways to aid their teammates safely. The Sunflower has 2 utility abilities (1 of which is utterly useless when in a fight), and an offensive ability which roots her to the ground (thus leaving her vulnerable).
Those are just some of the main offenders though. I think balance is totally out of whack with this game currently. It's completely biased in favor of the zombie side, because of their lack of clear weaknesses. While writing this, I've played a bunch of games of Suburbanation to do the epic quest for yesterday/today, and I've won every single one of them on zombie side, and lost every single one on plant side. Despite what a lot of the nay-sayers are speaking about on the boards, it has nothing to do with character skill. I'm good on either side, and it has nothing to do with the "Rose crutch," but rather the straight-up imbalance between sides.
Well, Plants and Zombies have similar and comparable DPS. Saying things like the Scientist out does the Sunflower in dmg is uninformed opinion. Would you be surprised to know that the base Sunflower and base Scientist both do 40 DPS?....
I'll tell you one area that the Zombies are completely out classed, but for some reason the average plant team rarely capitalizes on it.... The Plants have a LOT more CC. I'm talking like, 3:1. But, Plants just don't seem to use their CC as much, almost like it's an after thought.
@Rhendyr wrote:
Well, Plants and Zombies have similar and comparable DPS. Saying things like the Scientist out does the Sunflower in dmg is uninformed opinion. Would you be surprised to know that the base Sunflower and base Scientist both do 40 DPS?....
I'll tell you one area that the Zombies are completely out classed, but for some reason the average plant team rarely capitalizes on it.... The Plants have a LOT more CC. I'm talking like, 3:1. But, Plants just don't seem to use their CC as much, almost like it's an after thought.
That is assuming that you've been able to land your attacks; and it's not an uninformed opinion - I clearly play the game and have over 150+ hours invested. An uninformed opinion is people saying "IMP IS WEAK" or "BUFF IMP" last patch when the issue was clearly the damage output on Rose. An uninformed opinion is giving zombies compensation buffs because 1 character class on plant side was a bit unruly at release. As a veteran player of both healing classes, I can straight-up tell you that the scientist is a Hell of a lot stronger than the Sunflower in upfront damage potential. I can 2 shot a Sunflower up close. She can not do the same to me without: a. risking her own life in combat (therefore completely outplaying me as a Scientist) and potentially getting caught out by my allies, or b. Land every single hit on a Scientist (which is virtually impossible with 1-2 escapes and cover).
What point is there to play the Rose (2 of the 3 sources of utility and "CC" that the plants have) at this point if they nerfed her utility to all Hell?
And again, because I've seen a very valid point in a lot of the posts now; why should plants be forced to play cohesively as a team, whereas the zombies can completely stomp 1v1, in small skirmishes, and as a team? Where is the balance in that?
@kumaxking wrote:
@Rhendyr wrote:
Well, Plants and Zombies have similar and comparable DPS. Saying things like the Scientist out does the Sunflower in dmg is uninformed opinion. Would you be surprised to know that the base Sunflower and base Scientist both do 40 DPS?....
I'll tell you one area that the Zombies are completely out classed, but for some reason the average plant team rarely capitalizes on it.... The Plants have a LOT more CC. I'm talking like, 3:1. But, Plants just don't seem to use their CC as much, almost like it's an after thought.
That is assuming that you've been able to land your attacks; and it's not an uninformed opinion - I clearly play the game and have over 150+ hours invested. An uninformed opinion is people saying "IMP IS WEAK" or "BUFF IMP" last patch when the issue was clearly the damage output on Rose. An uninformed opinion is giving zombies compensation buffs because 1 character class on plant side was a bit unruly at release. As a veteran player of both healing classes, I can straight-up tell you that the scientist is a Hell of a lot stronger than the Sunflower in upfront damage potential. I can 2 shot a Sunflower up close. She can not do the same to me without: a. risking her own life in combat (therefore completely outplaying me as a Scientist) and potentially getting caught out by my allies, or b. Land every single hit on a Scientist (which is virtually impossible with 1-2 escapes and cover).
What point is there to play the Rose (2 of the 3 sources of utility and "CC" that the plants have) at this point if they nerfed her utility to all Hell?
And again, because I've seen a very valid point in a lot of the posts now; why should plants be forced to play cohesively as a team, whereas the zombies can completely stomp 1v1, in small skirmishes, and as a team? Where is the balance in that?
Your amount of play doesn't matter. You stated an opinion that wasn't true. Stating it is an uninformed opinion was a nice way of saying your opinion is wrong. A stock Scientist and stock Sunflower both do 40 DPS. Sure, the flower will miss, and the Scientist may miss also. If a Sunflower misses, he misses out on 9 dmg, if the Scientist misses, he misses out on 30 dmg.
I'm talking pure dmg here. Once you get into warp, you're then talking about circumstances beyond raw damage. Such as, the Scientist may have already used both warps fighting someone else, and be at range, so that would give the Sunflower an easy kill. Or the Scientist may warp in and be fighting someone else and such. Basically there are a LOT of factors. I do however though agree that the warp makes the Scientist a better "shock troop", while having two forms of healing stock makes the Sunflower the better team healer.
Plants have a LOT more CC than just Rose. Other than her Time Snare and Goatify, there's, Goop, Spikeweed, Spin Dash, EM Peach to name a few. Zombies have what? Turbo Twister, Sonic Grenade and Gravity Grenade. That's at least 2:1 CC. Just the Plants players seem to not use theirs as effectively. That's not taking team play into account, that's just saying the individual people who play plants for some reason tend to not use their CC as often or as effectively.
But, touching on teams, the Plants do have more abilities that seem to lean towards defense, so it would benefit them more to stick together. I know the majority of the times that I win on Plants (to be fair, I tend to be on the winning side regardless of which side it is) I tend to stick with other plants as the Sunflower, Chomper and Pea and tend to do really well in that regard. *shrugs*. Part of being good is being aware of your team composition, the enemy team comp. and knowing what is needed to be done or used to win. Ignoring those factors and just saying "We should be able to win by playing however the hell we want!" is, well, silly and is setting whatever side you are on up for failure. =/
@Rhendyr I'll take this piece by piece, since you think you have the supreme opinion over here, and make it so that everyone elses opinions are invalid.
Your amount of play doesn't matter. You stated an opinion that wasn't true. Stating it is an uninformed opinion was a nice way of saying your opinion is wrong. A stock Scientist and stock Sunflower both do 40 DPS. Sure, the flower will miss, and the Scientist may miss also. If a Sunflower misses, he misses out on 9 dmg, if the Scientist misses, he misses out on 30 dmg.
First of all, how the HELL can an opinion be untrue? It's my opinion. Never once did I state that it was fact, nor did I claim it to be the almighty opinion. I'm not pulling an opinion out of my *; I am stating experiences I have seen in a game that is currently favored to one side more than the other. I made valid points about the scientist as a class, and compared it to his counterpart on the plant side. It all goes back to my main point of my original comment in this thread: "Zombie side is too SAFE."
Amount of play doesn't matter? Quite contrary. My 90+ hours on GW1, and my 150+ hours on GW2 (plus whatever amount of time I played beta) say otherwise. Not only am I skilled with the old character classes and know their play style, I am also more exposed to various variants as well as new characters that other people aren't quite as adept at playing yet/don't know how to counter play. So I've debunked your own "uninformed opinion." On top of that, the DPS is not 40/character. They are not equal by any sense of the imagination. MAX DPS for a Scientist at close range is 99.5. MAX DPS for a Sunflower is 62.2 at close range. These values are 30 HP difference. Either way, there is a lot more value in playing a character optimized to delete characters quickly rather than whittling away at their health.
Plants have a LOT more CC than just Rose. Other than her Time Snare and Goatify, there's, Goop, Spikeweed, Spin Dash, EM Peach to name a few. Zombies have what? Turbo Twister, Sonic Grenade and Gravity Grenade. That's at least 2:1 CC. Just the Plants players seem to not use theirs as effectively. That's not taking team play into account, that's just saying the individual people who play plants for some reason tend to not use their CC as often or as effectively.
While I agree that plants have CC at their disposal, I completely disagree that people are not using it effectively. You are now taking using the "unskilled" argument to blame players for their losses regardless of the balance in the game. I'm also considering that Time Snare & Goatify just got a nerf at the beginning of this patch, and are not nearly as useful as they were previously. On top of that, Spikeweed is a single target ability, and Goop requires serious precision and nearly always requires some form of follow-up to be useful, altogether on a class that is kind of lackluster with the current "meta" of PvZGW2.
Zombies make up for their lack of Hard CC with other forms of CC. Imp has Gravity Grenade, and in mech form he usually has some form of knockup/knockback/slight stun. Super Brainz has 2 forms of CC - a knockback with his Heroic Kick and a heavy slow with his Turbo Twister. Foot Soldiers have a blind/vision impairment with their stink cloud. Engineers still have their stun with the sonic grenade. And All-Star has a knockback as well. Now that I took the time to actually look at all the CC, I'm seeing about a similar amount for each side. Another "uninformed opinion" debunked.
But, touching on teams, the Plants do have more abilities that seem to lean towards defense, so it would benefit them more to stick together. I know the majority of the times that I win on Plants (to be fair, I tend to be on the winning side regardless of which side it is) I tend to stick with other plants as the Sunflower, Chomper and Pea and tend to do really well in that regard. *shrugs*. Part of being good is being aware of your team composition, the enemy team comp. and knowing what is needed to be done or used to win. Ignoring those factors and just saying "We should be able to win by playing however the hell we want!" is, well, silly and is setting whatever side you are on up for failure. =/
This is where your argument completely derails itself. Plants do lean towards defense, yes, but with all the CC listed above, it is to their imminent demise that they group up and get gravity grenaded > imp punt > ultra tackled, or worse off, gravity grenaded > killed by Electro Brainz because the imbalance in his ranged attack is unreal. But what you are arguing at this point is that "We should be able to win by playing however the hell we want!" is exactly what the zombies are currently doing. They are winning in full-team pushes. They're also winning in solo kills or skirmishes. Scientists are running in and killing people 1v3 with shotgun-like spray (and I've done it before as well). Super Brainz are throwing their bodies at people and getting kills just by being a massive tank and wiping out teams with Turbo Twister. And god forbid you group up and an Imp catches 3-4 of your teammates in a gravity grenade, because at that point you should say goodbye to whatever objective you were trying to protect.
My point is, I think it's sad that this game forces you to favor one side in order to win some games. I literally just completed my Epic Suburbanation quest, and it required me to basically play on Zombie side every time (not to mention, not once did it switch me to plant side). And the only times I have seen plants actually win in a turf takeover is when they outnumber the zombie team 2:1.
A Scientist worth his salt will always have a teleport ready to decimate you.
The situation depends on a few things.
If I'm a Sunflower and I see a scientist at range I have a good chance to kill him, however as soon as he knows of my presence and warps in on me, his burst damage is way too strong to out dps. The only chance you have is if the Scientist health is low before entering the fight.
