Plants Suck

@AlexP1980

Imagine 4-5 Chompers in a team? Kill them all at range, use Imp and get in a Mech, what's the problem?

Are you afraid to shoot down 4-5 attacking Chompers from across the map?! Engineer, Soldier, Scientist, All Star, Pirate, Imp and Superhero all have ranged capabilities, every single class can target an attacking Chomper.

You simply don't understand, Chompers don't shoot from ranged like Electro Brains. There's a massive difference due to this fact, which you don't seem to want to acknowledge.

Chomper should have more health than Superhero, and it's bite should be on par. That's balance.

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@Zaheen1337 wrote:

@AlexP1980

Imagine 4-5 Chompers in a team? Kill them all at range, use Imp and get in a Mech, what's the problem?

  

Are you afraid to shoot down 4-5 attacking Chompers from across the map?!

You simply don't understand, Chompers don't shoot from ranged like Electro Brains. It is as simple as that.

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If it's so easy killing things at range I really don't understand why scientists are so strong...

A chomper with 250 hp and 35 dmg destroys a mech 1vs1 if start attacking at beam time.

And even stones know that electro brainz is broken and should be changed asap, is really a bad example

@AlexP1980

You're a zombie lover clearly, so what if a Chomper can take out a Mech? What are you trying to imply here, Mechs should stomp every class the Plants have, like they currently do?! You've also said a Chomper beats a mech 1v1 if they start at the beam, you know something dude, if an Imp is dumb enough to get into a Mech stood next to ANY plant, let alone a Chomper then it deserves to be destroyed regardless.

Scientsist have range capabilities, they also have one of the best Chomper escape abilities which is warp, and even a Gooped Scientist can take out a Chomper.

I can't understand your arguments here, it's either give every Plant class more health and a Shotgun, or make Chomper better. You seem to be defending Zombies, and then defending Plants by claiming they are fine. You haven't ever tried attacking with your Chomper have you? You say Chomper is fine because you got a nice vanquish streak in GW1 by defending with a good Plants team, when defending and surrounded by Plants surely any Plant is capable of getting a vanquish streak.

Oh and for crying out loud, please stop partially quoting my sentences, quote the whole post or nothing at all. Taking what I'm saying OUT OF CONTEXT is slightly frustrating to me. 🙂

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@Zaheen1337 wrote:

@AlexP1980

You're a zombie lover clearly, so what if a Chomper can take out a Mech? What are you trying to imply here, Mechs should stomp every class the Plants have, like they currently do?! You've also said a Chomper beats a mech 1v1 if they start at the beam, you know something dude, if an Imp is dumb enough to get into a Mech stood next to ANY plant, let alone a Chomper then it deserves to be destroyed regardless.

Scientsist have range capabilities, they also have one of the best Chomper escape abilities which is warp, and even a Gooped Scientist can take out a Chomper.

I can't understand your arguments here, it's either give every Plant class more health and a Shotgun, or make Chomper better. You seem to be defending Zombies, and then defending Plants by claiming they are fine. You haven't ever tried attacking with your Chomper have you? You say Chomper is fine because you got a nice vanquish streak in GW1 by defending with a good Plants team, when defending and surrounded by Plants surely any Plant is capable of getting a vanquish streak.

Oh and for crying out loud, please stop partially quoting my sentences, quote the whole post or nothing at all. Taking what I'm saying OUT OF CONTEXT is slightly frustrating to me. 🙂

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@Zaheen1337

I was quoting partially to make clearer what I was referring to, not to take your senteces out of context.

Anyway, you started calling me "zombie lover" just to delegitimate my opinions, and this is really a shame, I thought we could have a positive discussion.

Bu the I play both plants and zombies and I main chomper on plant side, so I really know well what a chomper can do.

To me it seems that you plan to balance just randomly buffing things without considering the consequence. THIS attidute gave us the monster rose, and then the unstoppable zombies. I don't want to see this happening again.

@AlexP1980

I understand, and that's fair enough. I didn't comment on balance during the beta, I fell in love with the game, purchased the first one and levelled from 1-313 in a month. So I had a lot of experience of every character, and to be honest Chomper was my favourite for the Plant side and Engineer for the Zombie side because it countered the Chomper.

I am not trying to create imbalance, or a monster. Besides even if something was created per say, surely it will be fixed in future updates, but as it is right now the majority of players with functional brain cells would agree Plants have no close range burst, and if Chomper was improved, that would eliminate the need for this, however, due to it being close range only, it is easily taken out, Chomper is a free kill for zombies in most scenarios.

I apologise for calling you a zombie lover, but even I am a lover of zombies, but plants also. I have no hidden agenda to create imbalance, do you honestly think I would spend all my time debating with players if I wanted to create imbalance? The people who abuse things in games generally stay silent and abuse the day lights out of it until it's fixed, and defend every aspect of said broken class so that they can take full advantage of it for as long as they can.

I am not like those types of players, I promise you 🙂

I've recently finished my review for Garden Warfare 2, which is here:

http://thelegendarygaming.wix.com/legendarygaming#!plants-vs-zombies-garden-warfare-2/az9mo

...One of the differences between Garden Warfare 2 and other top third person shooters is the fact that GW2 actually has illusory levels of depth -- which is (actually) both good and bad. It's good because the depth and balance is there, but it's bad because people who don't have the time and determination to unlock character upgrades and all the different classes are at a disadvantage. But mind you, this is very similar to other great shooters like Call of Duty, etc., where you unlock different things (for multiplayer) with game progression. To be completely clear, what I mean by "illusory" depth and balance is the fact that the game (appears) to a common observer not to be balanced, or have depth, when in fact it actually has more than the average TPS. In terms of specifically getting certain boasts (at the end of the game) with different plants, I've done that plenty of times, including a game where I went 142 and 7 in a public lobby -- which was the best match I've ever had (on any game) against real opponents.

http://www.facebook.com/jacob.curnow

So I'd recommend just trying to level up your characters and unlock upgrades, which starts to break those barriers. One of the key reasons why upgrading characters is so important is simply because each character, even in different variants (per character) does NOT feature the same upgrades. An example would be how Fire Rose does not have the same upgrades as the standard Rose. But let's give even further analysis:

1) I'd actually agree that Rose was nerfed a little bit too much, but believe it or not, she is still EXTREMELY effective -- provided that you understand how to use her new version. The new Rose is, essentially, a completely different character -- or at least that's how you should be thinking about her. The new Rose requires players to literally function as a support system, although she (and others) can sometimes step outside of their designated system and function briefly as an "assault" character in certain circumstances and on certain maps. The new way to play her, at a solid level, really does require players to have a better understanding of the map, in addition to making very accurate positional reads of both your team mates AND the other team.

a) Positional reads of your team mates are important to counter highly skilled, and potentially mastered, versions of electric based characters such as the Electro Brainz. Obviously the electricity ping pongs off of each other from this particular character, which is why you need to read team mate position under pressure (so you don't cluster). A highly skilled Electro Brainz that has MASTERED his character can be extremely spectacular, but no, he is not over powered. He can be devastating in the hands of an expert if he uses the triple weapon buffs -- but can be countered by players that skillfully do not cluster, and are able to quickly diagnose shooting positions and adjust themselves behind cover quick enough.

b) The reason why you need to read the position of opposing players is obvious, but a key factor in this is (very quickly) figuring out their firing angles and blocking them off -- but this also ties into map knowledge -- not only on PVWGW2, but just about any other shooter.

2) The Sunflower could POSSIBLY, very possibly use a minor buff. But a minor buff can go a very long way... Keep in mind, however, that the Sunflower is facing completely different characters than she was in PVZGW1, and some of these new classes are slightly more powerful. This means that she might not be as effective as an assault class as she used to be, for better or worse. Instead, what players should do with the current model is focus on creating distance -- and putting their team mates first. But remember that you can only put your team mates first as long as they aren't doing something completely foolish. If one person walks into a cluster of 7 people all shooting at him, the support/healer class doesn't need to follow.

3) Yes, the Chomper needs fixed, and you are absolutely 100% correct. I actually used 7 out of 8 of the characters (very well) in the first Garden Warfare, with the exception of the Scientist. I didn't use the Scientist because he was the weakest, but props to Garden Warfare 2 developers for COMPLETELY correcting him in this second game. One of the characters I would main in the first title was the Chomper, and very often. I immediately noticed that (as soon as you burrow) it tends to feel very slippery; while simultaneously offsetting your camera. I've heard multiple other people talk about this, and this problem (essentially) functions as a stealth nerf for the Chomper.

Another problem with the Chomper, believe it or not, is how close to the camera he is (which I noticed instantaneously in the BETA). If you compare side by side photo's of him in GW2 and GW1, he is closer in part 2. This, once again, tends to function as a stealth nerf since it simply reduces your field of vision. If the digging issue was fixed, however, this could be gotten used to.

4) Cactus I haven't really gotten too in depth with just yet, but I find the Zen version to be just as weak as a poster (later in this thread) said she was. But just about every character has a weak variant (or two), so I'd imagine there are some solid Cactus variants with their upgrades applied.

5) Citron is pretty solid, and probably doesn't need buffed at this time. He was basically over powered in the BETA.

6) The Peashooter is excellent, and has some decent classes. The key is to fully maximize his splash damage (with the classes that has it), which is best to do up on high point. Level ground with the Peashooter is good for SOME classes, but he better operates over looking the map.

7) Interestingly enough, the only character you said doesn't need buffed I would suggest actually does. There is a person later in the thread that says the Plants need an assault, or "shotgun" class, and with the Chomper having it's weaknesses you would think Kernel Corn should be an assault master -- which he is not. But if he were to get a buff, he would honestly only need a VERY minor one -- which would go a long way.

I have been using a chomper alot and he feels great in defensive modes. In offensive modes it takes a lot to use him well there. A buff I feel would make chomper insanely OP. I mean my Master Armor Chomper has 248 health and with a damage upgrade can do 55 damage a bite.

Oh, I absolutely agree with you 100%. If the Chomper is buffed too much, he could be one of the biggest (new) problems in the game. So that's why I think he needs corrected before he is buffed, and all the points you make about upgrades are all valid -- because that is the illusory depth I talked about a second ago. But think of it this way:

In the first game he was virtually PERFECT for the environment in which he was in, compared to the classes in that game. There are (obviously) some new classes and variants in Garden Warfare 2 to take into account, so it's possible that he may need some more balancing. But (as of today) he should definitely have his dig feature corrected so that it functions as efficiently as it did in Garden Warfare 1, because it's very, very, very poor by comparison.

@IIINCORRUPTIBLE

I have to show respect purely for the amount of depth and time you've spent into your write up, however I must disagree with you on many counts.

Electro Brainz isn't overpowered? Dude the class is broken, I went from Level 1 and Mastered him in just over 60 minutes. The Electro chain effect does 5 times the damage to everything around what you're hitting, and the range on the arc in massive! The class needs fixing.

Do you want to know why I said Corn is fine? He's like Soldier on Steroids, that's why. His Husk Hop deals 150-200 damage, his Shuck a Shock does 100, and he has Butter barrage and a Chaingun. He has so much bloody damage its not even funny, his only weakness is he moves like a turtle, and I'm not entirely sure why you want to give him super speed and wings, he can already get to places most other Plants can't. He's a clone of the Soldier, slightly weaker ZPG, but Husk Hop to compensate the damage split.

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You haven't said anything wrong, it's just you're missing one fundamental point about GW2. Plants need to attack and all their abilities and primary weapons were designed around defence, all being long range and Gatling, Sunbeam needing to be planted.

What happens when you kill a zombie at range on any map?

Please allow me to answer my own question because the majority of players only seem to play zombies now, what happens is they press the respawn button and start shooting back.

Plants all need to be on par with zombies, not gimped to being defensive characters or all having to hold hands in order to get a kill. That's not balance, it's not fair and it's certainly not fun, especially when broken classes like Elelctro Brainz can chain kill 5 of you at once. If you think that he's not overpowered then you've not actually played the character, but I know you've mastered it.

Now another question, why was Scientist given a heal beam?

This wasn't a bad thing, but it was to help zombies function in garden ops and team play better, to create balance.

I have literally too many questions that detail and completely derail the fact the game is so one sided and favoured towards zombies that it's not even funny, it's a joke. Like seriously, you cannot play GW1 and come onto GW2 and say everything is fine and the classes are balanced.

In case you haven't noticed, the player base is dying and everyone is returning their game for a refund.

I could write an essay here to you but I'm not going to, I'm giving my brain a rest from this madness which will allow me to write up my balance changes and reasons to it all, and if they're not implemented for the most part then I'm probably going find something else to do with my free time because I play games for fun, and major game design flaws and imbalance is not fun for anyone, it makes people upset, frustrated, they come onto the forums and vent frustration only to be faced by zombie lovers and trolls and then quit.

Rose was broken, and anyone with half a brain cell knew she needed fixing, which again in your post above you've said she was buffed too much? A few times you've miss worded something but that's okay. I didn't play Rose at all, I didn't want to add to the mayhem or be labelled as a twit for killing kids with a broken class, but now I'm painfully trying to figure out a way to level a class that is useless, in terms of damage output, weak and can die easily, has no real way of self healing. Sure she has great CC abilities, but why would I care about that garbage if all I want to do is level her up to a point where she might actually be useful to building a teleport and getting a few kills.

My suggestions for Chomper, however ridiculous they sound for you are my suggestions, and my opinion of a quick fix balancing tweak. I must remind you that he will still be unable to kill anything or anyone at range because he's a Chomper, and a melee class. Super Brainz was suppose to be a melee class too but look at him, he can get to places better than the Peashooter, he has range, CC, one shot, dangerous close range and long range attacks and one of the highest health characters in the game.

Balance would be giving the Chomper long range and short range weapons, CC, infinite super jumps etc...

All I suggested was a bit more damage on the bite and health, some damage reduction when chomping someone, hardly game breaking if you ask me. It is clear that you love zombies purely based on your defensive statement about Electro Brainz, and nobody can blame you. Every smart player would play the OP and broken classes and defend them until the end because it's fun to dominate, well that fun is going to end when they fix that broken class. Otherwise everyone will eventually leave and half the remaining zombie players will be forced to play as a plant, and they will eventually leave as well. It's a vicious circle and you need to look outside the box.

Plants need more attacking firepower, more health, and in my opinion if a Pirate can have both a sniper and a shotgun why can't the Cactus? Why can't Cactus have a TNT barrel and a cannon too whilst you're speaking of balance.

If the zombies healing class can warp and have a shotgun and a mega heal bomb that burst heals for 50, why can't sunflower have a warp and a shotgun and some burst healing? If Engineers can hit for 40s and and build teleports and have incredible anti Chomper abilities, why can't the plant equivalent be the same?

If the Imp can transform into a 400 health Mech why can't Plants have an equivalent Robo Mech of their own?

I just don't bloody understand why they gave zombies better everything. It worked in GW1 because Zombies were always attacking, but it doesn't work in GW2 when Plants have to attack.

I don’t mind providing feedback, but just as a heads up, I want to say that I still disagree with just about everything you’re saying, and I (originally) gave some very specific explanations as to why (admittedly) in a massive wall of text. Some of the content in my reply from here on out, by their very nature, can be nothing more than a reiteration of what I already said. But I also don’t have time to go back and forth forever.

• Something being “over powered” is nothing more than an opinion and a person’s opinion can very often be based on flawed thinking or a lack of skill. A good example is how many people thought the Imp’s Mech was “over powered” in the BETA, when you could practically stand toe to toe with it using the Peashooter’s Gatling Gun. Electro Brainz is an excellent character, but his absolute and primary asset is firing on players who cluster together because the damage obviously ping pong’s back and forth off of all of them. If players spread themselves out, his long rang efficiency is so quickly neutralized that his only other options are to get inside – which is another place where he is NOT over powered.

And no, leveling up Electro Brainz using a private match set up you can find on youtube, against bot opponents, is not that hard; I’d agree.

• As far as Kernel Corn goes, I actually believe he’s already fairly solid, but could use some very minor buffs in order to give the Plants a better lead and/or assault character that can push the line. Your points about his Shuck Shot and Husk Hop are completely invalid (at worst) and highly debatable at best. The Husk Hop is really a spectacular move, but you still have to control it very specifically to get maximum damage since it doesn’t automatically track the opponent. Very similar situation with the Shuck Shot because you can quote it’s mathematical damage all day long, but that is with a direct shot which you (usually) have to land on a completely unaware opponent. With that said, the average damage output of the Shuck Shot is going to be based on splash damage, since the majority of shots people try to land with it are going to miss.

• There’s not any “fundamental point” about Garden Warfare 2 that I’ve missed because I’ve broken like 7 different world records on competitive games, and already claimed the multiplayer #1 rank on Garden Warfare 2: http://www.facebook.com/jacob.curnow

Although character properties and what may need an adjustment is all opinion, I can tell you with absolute certainty that I know my fundamentals about both of the Garden Warfare games, especially since I had like a 16.0 K/D on part 2.

All of the Plant abilities are not defensive; that is incorrect. And it’s also incorrect to assume that the only way to play offense is to use a mid to close range weapon.

• The majority of players only use Zombies now? That’s certainly news to me because I play all the time and both sides are usually filled.

• The Scientist was given the heal beam because his core character was (likely) the weakest class in Garden Warfare 1, especially when compared to the Sunflowers excellent support and even assault capabilities. At this point, however, the Scientist and Sunflower classes should get some minor adjustments. The issue with the (current) Scientist is that he’s able to function almost exclusively as a semi-assault character, completely rushing players down in some situations. That’d be fine if he wasn’t a healing class (I wouldn’t even use the term “support”), but when he’s able to play rush down, you have an extremely low tier healer. I played this game for hours today and think I got healed approximately one time by a fellow team mate scientist – mostly because the focus of these players is constantly scanning the environment for people they can successfully run up from behind on and shotgun in the back.

So how do you fix this? Well a creative effort is better than nerfing his weapon, and you have to think outside the box. What I can say is that I use a 200 dollar headset; literally the type you would see NFL head coaches wear, and I know how to read the environment for threats. You obviously do so visually, both for the characters themselves as well as their icons, but you also do so by sound cues. And I can say for certain that it’s very difficult, if not impossible in some situations, to determine whether or not these types of players are behind you until you’re almost dead. One very nice technique was how Monday Night Combat (another TPS) had a stealth/ninja class with an invisibility suit. She was mostly melee, but her invisibility suit made a very slight humming noise that skilled listeners (with a headset) could hear. In Garden Warfare 2, no matter how closely I listen and make sound adjustments, it’s still hard to hear (or see) some of these Scientists running up from behind on you – and I think if they somehow modified that, it would neutralize the rush down.

• Everyone isn’t returning their game for a refund because you cannot return opened video games for a refund due to copyright laws. PSN also does not give refunds on digital purchases, except for rare circumstances. The player base is also about the same as it was at launch…

• I’m also curious why you just said that you’re going to write up a list of balancing issues then stop playing if they’re not implemented. No offense, but are you a tournament level player in third person shooters? Are you a professional tester? Obviously developers are going to listen to feedback, but a lot of what you’re saying is either opinion, lack of experience with the game, or flawed thinking. Keep in mind that developers can’t flinch with every piece of criticism, because not only is that virtually impossible, but it would also break their game.

• Rose being “broken” at launch is just as much of an opinion as is your opinion about Electro Brainz being broken… I personally think she needed some minor adjustments, but yes, I think she was nerfed a bit too much. I still use her current version, of which I already explained how to use in detail, and no; she is not useless in terms of damage output. In fact, in some circumstances you can still even use a form of rush down with her – provided that you have applied some of her upgrades.

• As far as the Chomper is concerned, I think the focus should be to ultimately just correct him (at first), and make him (at least) as efficient as he was in Garden Warfare 1 – particularly when performing the dig and eating Zombies from underneath the ground. YES, if he gets buffed too quickly, he could become nothing more than an “over powered” or “broken” character that people start complaining about. Balancing the game has nothing to do with making the Chomper like Super Brainz; that’s just not true.

• Saying that I exclusively “love zombies” is just plain goofy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S0PcTsiaoA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq4V-o-8Th0

To the contrary, I use just about every single class, and did the same thing in Garden Warfare 1, with the exception of the scientist.

• I would agree that there can still be some adjustments made to the Plants, and even the Zombies side as well, but that’s not what your thread is claiming. You’re thread is (very clearly) suggesting that the Plants size is SO UNDERPOWERED by comparison to the Zombies, in just about every way possible, that the game is imbalanced and broken. And it’s simply not true. And it’s also not true that each class, on each corresponding side, needs to have the same style of weaponry and abilities – all that does is make the game stale.

• Possibly buffing the Sunflower (with a new optional ability or two), in terms of a long range healing device (or something like that), and slightly increased firepower – I may agree with. But no, the two healing classes shouldn’t have identical abilities.

• The Engineer is able to stop the Chomper, and the (current) model of Rose can very effectively stop Super Brainz.

• The Imp’s Mech has so many counters to it that it’s ridiculous; it’s really his form (outside the Mech) that is now hard to deal with.

So after all this, a lot of what you’re saying is just opinion, but a couple things are pretty accurate. If I were to make a fix, I would do this from here:

-Correct the Chomper’s dig ability, and eating function from under the ground. If possible, make his proximity to the camera the same as it was with GW1.

-Buff the Sunflower with more health than the Scientist on average, possibly add in a new ability to help heal your team mates, and possibly add a very, very slight damage output increase.

-Fix the speed of bullets so you don’t have to lead people as much. I’ve also found (a glitch?) where I have my target right on someone firing and the shots just don’t land.

-Create an indication when certain characters are behind you, or similar to boss mode in Garden Warfare 1, some sort of upgrade (or ability) that you can equip to reveal ALL zombies and/or plants.

-Slight upgrade to Kernel Corn’s standard weapon and butter strike.

-I'd probably modify Rose (just slightly) but I'd have to do some more thinking on that one...