Re: Game is unfixable because of player AND dev Bias

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@TallerGoblin wrote:

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@xxSe4l-MLG420xx wrote:

@TallerGoblin

Sharkbite needs four shots to kill a Cacti and deals more damage than the majority, but most Cacti can even out due to their higher rate of fire. The Camo Cactus i perticuar wastly outclasses him, or at least, I do. The Potato mine is still as lethal as ever and can rack up tons of kills. The Cannon is mediocre at best. It only deals a reliable amount of damage if you continously score direct hits, which is unlikley (provided that youe opponent has a brain) and the splash damage is laughaball. As for th Barrel Blast, amost every Plant has a counter. The Chomper can goop the barrel and place a Spike Weed right under it and eat the Captain. The Peashooter can harass Deadbeard from a roof, making him unhitable by the barrel, and the Gatling is very good at countering it when you are on the ground level. Citron can jump on the roofs and is to mobile to be caught by the explosion. The Sunflower has the Sunbeam and can build up enough distance when the barrel is not lit, so she can escape. Rose can just Goatfy the Captain, dening his damage reduction or use her Arcane enigma. The Kernel just doesn't care and busts the barrel with a Husk Hop. The Cactus can place a Tallnut to block the Barrel and escape in the meantime, of course while laying Potato mines around corners to catch the persuing Deadbeard off guard. (And a lot of players forget about the Potato Mines when chasing a seemingly vunerable Cactus). Speeking about Tallnuts, they can still be used to mount in top of roofs, which is something the Captain can't do as easily, serve as an emergency block Imp Punts, Super Ultra Balls and ZPGs and hide some Potato mines when blocking a narrow pathway. Last but not least, the overpowering Zombies. Scientist and Super Brainz fall in the same category: the class designed to counter you, provided they get close. Counters: Potato mines placed around corners to bait them in, or just not letting them get close. And sometimes you just get lucky hipfiring. I hae to agree about the Imps, but it is only because of their Health, because you can usually hit them once or twice, but never three times in a row.

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I agree on some points but you you've made a lot of blanket statements. (e.g. one potato mine won't kill a superbrains. You have to admit that it is by no means as simple as you've put it playing online.  I'm talking about making the classes even (cactus vs pirate/ sunflower vs scientist) in an attempt to even the playing field. As far as I'm concerned if I'm a cactus versing a pirate, the abilities, health and power should be  equal. I shouldn't have to go and play another separate character to kill what is supposed to be my equal.

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@TallerGoblin

You make a mistake that plenty of people on this forum have made already. You assume that the Plants and Zombie classes should be mirrors, but they just fill the same roles. Let's compare the Chomper to the Super Brainz. The Chomper is a sneaky assasin that is centered around defending a point. To accomplish his job, he's equipped with a stun, an insta-kill move that also renders him invulnerable and can be used as a movement tool and a trap that can disable any damage reducing ability and turns the Zombie into a free kill. Super Brainz is a close range brawler with a fairly powerfull damage ability and a range attack to soften up targets to make up for the lack of an instant kill, a movement ability that also deals damage (altough not a lot) and an ability that was supposed to be a defensive move that allows him to finish of an opponent he was on low HP, but after complains that it was too weak, it turned into an offensive ability that allows to deal considerable amount of damage to groups of Plants while being hard to kill. The only thing that they have in common is that they are best at close range. The Cactus and Deadbeard are different as well. While Deadbeard is somewhat more versitile with his abilities and the Shotgun, the Cactus is the better sniper, because she has needs less shots to kill and has a faster rate of fire. I could go on and on, but I need to get back to work right now

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@xxSe4l-MLG420xx wrote:

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@TallerGoblin wrote:

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@xxSe4l-MLG420xx wrote:

@TallerGoblin

Sharkbite needs four shots to kill a Cacti and deals more damage than the majority, but most Cacti can even out due to their higher rate of fire. The Camo Cactus i perticuar wastly outclasses him, or at least, I do. The Potato mine is still as lethal as ever and can rack up tons of kills. The Cannon is mediocre at best. It only deals a reliable amount of damage if you continously score direct hits, which is unlikley (provided that youe opponent has a brain) and the splash damage is laughaball. As for th Barrel Blast, amost every Plant has a counter. The Chomper can goop the barrel and place a Spike Weed right under it and eat the Captain. The Peashooter can harass Deadbeard from a roof, making him unhitable by the barrel, and the Gatling is very good at countering it when you are on the ground level. Citron can jump on the roofs and is to mobile to be caught by the explosion. The Sunflower has the Sunbeam and can build up enough distance when the barrel is not lit, so she can escape. Rose can just Goatfy the Captain, dening his damage reduction or use her Arcane enigma. The Kernel just doesn't care and busts the barrel with a Husk Hop. The Cactus can place a Tallnut to block the Barrel and escape in the meantime, of course while laying Potato mines around corners to catch the persuing Deadbeard off guard. (And a lot of players forget about the Potato Mines when chasing a seemingly vunerable Cactus). Speeking about Tallnuts, they can still be used to mount in top of roofs, which is something the Captain can't do as easily, serve as an emergency block Imp Punts, Super Ultra Balls and ZPGs and hide some Potato mines when blocking a narrow pathway. Last but not least, the overpowering Zombies. Scientist and Super Brainz fall in the same category: the class designed to counter you, provided they get close. Counters: Potato mines placed around corners to bait them in, or just not letting them get close. And sometimes you just get lucky hipfiring. I hae to agree about the Imps, but it is only because of their Health, because you can usually hit them once or twice, but never three times in a row.

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I agree on some points but you you've made a lot of blanket statements. (e.g. one potato mine won't kill a superbrains. You have to admit that it is by no means as simple as you've put it playing online.  I'm talking about making the classes even (cactus vs pirate/ sunflower vs scientist) in an attempt to even the playing field. As far as I'm concerned if I'm a cactus versing a pirate, the abilities, health and power should be  equal. I shouldn't have to go and play another separate character to kill what is supposed to be my equal.

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@TallerGoblin

You make a mistake that plenty of people on this forum have made already. You assume that the Plants and Zombie classes should be mirrors, but they just fill the same roles. Let's compare the Chomper to the Super Brainz. The Chomper is a sneaky assasin that is centered around defending a point. To accomplish his job, he's equipped with a stun, an insta-kill move that also renders him invulnerable and can be used as a movement tool and a trap that can disable any damage reducing ability and turns the Zombie into a free kill. Super Brainz is a close range brawler with a fairly powerfull damage ability and a range attack to soften up targets to make up for the lack of an instant kill, a movement ability that also deals damage (altough not a lot) and an ability that was supposed to be a defensive move that allows him to finish of an opponent he was on low HP, but after complains that it was too weak, it turned into an offensive ability that allows to deal considerable amount of damage to groups of Plants while being hard to kill. The only thing that they have in common is that they are best at close range. The Cactus and Deadbeard are different as well. While Deadbeard is somewhat more versitile with his abilities and the Shotgun, the Cactus is the better sniper, because she has needs less shots to kill and has a faster rate of fire. I could go on and on, but I need to get back to work right now

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It's no mistake and it's crippling the game. There's a reason why people are leaving this game in truckloads.  All I want is the same enjoyable play style as in GW1, not this hot mess. Is it fair that Superbrains should get  tens and tens of kills and that the peashooter shouldn't? By the way Superbrains has no flaws (hell, his laser has further reach than the camo cactus)

It's funny that you should run straight to the chomper considering he's the only plant that can hold his own with any zombie. Suggestions for the sunflower???

Any clown with half a brain can see that the plants are severely under powered. Nobody gets to the end of maps anymore when the zombies are defending.

I feel like we are going to have to agree to disagree.

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@Shogunbear wrote:
Where do you get your information like "people leaving in truckloads". As far as i knew we didnt have numbers on playerbase and ive nevrr not been able to find a game of any match type on console. On top of that games like these, non competetive, are typically relaxing filler games that peoplr pickup between other big titles to basically chill and have fun. Alot of my friends who play this are working on the division right now.

Really some very small changes to somw of the underpeforming plants as well as some Ombies is all thats needed for better balance. You guys that feel multiplayer is torture or painful shluld prpbably take a break yourselves and stop making things out to be much worse then they are.

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I could ask you exactly the same thing. You think it's a "filler game"? Yeah I'm sure that's why they made it.

If your not even a loyal player to this game your opinion is irrelevant in these forums.

I disagree with a few points here.  Firstly the plants have a ton of defensive powers making it very tough for them to just explode out of the spawning area.  They are literally a side that was originally designed to dig into a point and hold it.  a lot of abilities leave the plants immobile (peashooter gattling gun and sunflower sun beam for example).  Plants are being forced to do something to hide in a spawn point because that's the only thing they can do, poor cactus only has abilities that let him dig into a hole and snipe.  You're not going on the offensive with tall nuts and potato mines.  Don't even get me started on the garlic drone.  Chomper will die after he swallows one zombie and the zombies have far to many counters to being swallowed anymore.  Sun Flower is a joke, but it much better since they resolved the hit box issues they were having.  Her short range heal forces her into combat with one of her buddies, but she has a gun meant for medium to long range skirmishes (where she still sees some success).  Rose was nerfed into the ground, especially the ice variant.  Citron just gets wrecked and his empeach takes too long to fire.  I think Corn and Pea can do their jobs well but with the rest of their team lacking it's honestly hard to play them properly.

Also your point about making plants play together to be better isnt very fair either since the same could be said for zombies.  With the exception that zombies are still successful when they go Rambo and do not coordinate.

Lastly telling people to "GET GUD, SON" is not the issue, it generally an argument I see from people that don't play the plant side enough.

I do agree that plants over exaggerate the imbalance issues but I also see where they are coming from.  Not only are most their classes/varients inferior the map design also favors zombies and their abilities.

@TallerGoblin

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@TallerGoblin wrote:

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@xxSe4l-MLG420xx wrote:

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@TallerGoblin wrote:

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@xxSe4l-MLG420xx wrote:

@TallerGoblin

Sharkbite needs four shots to kill a Cacti and deals more damage than the majority, but most Cacti can even out due to their higher rate of fire. The Camo Cactus i perticuar wastly outclasses him, or at least, I do. The Potato mine is still as lethal as ever and can rack up tons of kills. The Cannon is mediocre at best. It only deals a reliable amount of damage if you continously score direct hits, which is unlikley (provided that youe opponent has a brain) and the splash damage is laughaball. As for th Barrel Blast, amost every Plant has a counter. The Chomper can goop the barrel and place a Spike Weed right under it and eat the Captain. The Peashooter can harass Deadbeard from a roof, making him unhitable by the barrel, and the Gatling is very good at countering it when you are on the ground level. Citron can jump on the roofs and is to mobile to be caught by the explosion. The Sunflower has the Sunbeam and can build up enough distance when the barrel is not lit, so she can escape. Rose can just Goatfy the Captain, dening his damage reduction or use her Arcane enigma. The Kernel just doesn't care and busts the barrel with a Husk Hop. The Cactus can place a Tallnut to block the Barrel and escape in the meantime, of course while laying Potato mines around corners to catch the persuing Deadbeard off guard. (And a lot of players forget about the Potato Mines when chasing a seemingly vunerable Cactus). Speeking about Tallnuts, they can still be used to mount in top of roofs, which is something the Captain can't do as easily, serve as an emergency block Imp Punts, Super Ultra Balls and ZPGs and hide some Potato mines when blocking a narrow pathway. Last but not least, the overpowering Zombies. Scientist and Super Brainz fall in the same category: the class designed to counter you, provided they get close. Counters: Potato mines placed around corners to bait them in, or just not letting them get close. And sometimes you just get lucky hipfiring. I hae to agree about the Imps, but it is only because of their Health, because you can usually hit them once or twice, but never three times in a row.

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I agree on some points but you you've made a lot of blanket statements. (e.g. one potato mine won't kill a superbrains. You have to admit that it is by no means as simple as you've put it playing online.  I'm talking about making the classes even (cactus vs pirate/ sunflower vs scientist) in an attempt to even the playing field. As far as I'm concerned if I'm a cactus versing a pirate, the abilities, health and power should be  equal. I shouldn't have to go and play another separate character to kill what is supposed to be my equal.

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@TallerGoblin

You make a mistake that plenty of people on this forum have made already. You assume that the Plants and Zombie classes should be mirrors, but they just fill the same roles. Let's compare the Chomper to the Super Brainz. The Chomper is a sneaky assasin that is centered around defending a point. To accomplish his job, he's equipped with a stun, an insta-kill move that also renders him invulnerable and can be used as a movement tool and a trap that can disable any damage reducing ability and turns the Zombie into a free kill. Super Brainz is a close range brawler with a fairly powerfull damage ability and a range attack to soften up targets to make up for the lack of an instant kill, a movement ability that also deals damage (altough not a lot) and an ability that was supposed to be a defensive move that allows him to finish of an opponent he was on low HP, but after complains that it was too weak, it turned into an offensive ability that allows to deal considerable amount of damage to groups of Plants while being hard to kill. The only thing that they have in common is that they are best at close range. The Cactus and Deadbeard are different as well. While Deadbeard is somewhat more versitile with his abilities and the Shotgun, the Cactus is the better sniper, because she has needs less shots to kill and has a faster rate of fire. I could go on and on, but I need to get back to work right now

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It's no mistake and it's crippling the game. There's a reason why people are leaving this game in truckloads.  All I want is the same enjoyable play style as in GW1, not this hot mess. Is it fair that Superbrains should get  tens and tens of kills and that the peashooter shouldn't? By the way Superbrains has no flaws (hell, his laser has further reach than the camo cactus)

It's funny that you should run straight to the chomper considering he's the only plant that can hold his own with any zombie. Suggestions for the sunflower???

Any clown with half a brain can see that the plants are severely under powered. Nobody gets to the end of maps anymore when the zombies are defending.

I feel like we are going to have to agree to disagree.

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When is Super Brainz able to rack up tons of kills? Usually, most Super Brainz won't go on insane killing sprees because they still perform best at close range, which is also where you die the fastest. Unless we take Electro Brainz into consideration, because that guy is completly broken. His laser does not have any over the top ranged capabilities. It deals only a moderate amount of damage and has some unpleasant recoil to compensate. And everywhere where you can hit somebody with the laser, you can also hit with the Camo Cactus because both are hitscan weapons with unlimited range and pinpoint accuracy. And Super Brainz has the fatale flaw to rely on his movement abilities to be any kind of menace, which leaves him vunerable to the Chomper, Citron and his nemesis Rose which have two CC abilities to stop him.

The Chomper definetivly isn't the only Plant that stands a chance. Any Citron works fine, and the default, Druid and Fire Rose are still very effective with the homing upgrade and even without, their abilities help to shut down Super Brainz, Deadbeard, the Scientist and the Imp. The Kernel and Pea are also quite decent altough he requires map knowlage and awarness of Scientist ambushes. The Cacti lacks some sort of direct pushing ability, but the Corn Strike can help to clear out a contested point and in my opinion, she is still the better sniper in comparison to Deadbeard because Sharkbite is the only one able to go toe to toe with most variants, still feels inferior to the Camo Cactus, or at least, is inferior to me as the Camo Cactus. I should also add that every other Sharkbite is inferior to his Cacti counterpart due to damage, ammo and rate of fire.

As far as the Sunflower goes the only Plant class that feels weak in this game, I suggested to give her the unique ability to overheal, which would indirectly buff the entire Plant team, because their is no justification for the Scientist to be just as good at supporting as the Sunflower. 

While some Zombies are broken in the way that they completly outclass the default variant (which is supposed to be the most versatile and reliable variant) or render some other classes useless (Super Brainz makes the Alll-Star jealous) I feel that the Plants still stand a chance, if they play smart enough. And every so often, when I get a team not only composed of Corns but some Roses, Cacti, Peashooter and somebody else playing Citron, we can win. But that is just my opinion

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@xxSe4l-MLG420xx wrote:

@TallerGoblin

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@TallerGoblin wrote:

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@xxSe4l-MLG420xx wrote:

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@TallerGoblin wrote:

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@xxSe4l-MLG420xx wrote:

@TallerGoblin

Sharkbite needs four shots to kill a Cacti and deals more damage than the majority, but most Cacti can even out due to their higher rate of fire. The Camo Cactus i perticuar wastly outclasses him, or at least, I do. The Potato mine is still as lethal as ever and can rack up tons of kills. The Cannon is mediocre at best. It only deals a reliable amount of damage if you continously score direct hits, which is unlikley (provided that youe opponent has a brain) and the splash damage is laughaball. As for th Barrel Blast, amost every Plant has a counter. The Chomper can goop the barrel and place a Spike Weed right under it and eat the Captain. The Peashooter can harass Deadbeard from a roof, making him unhitable by the barrel, and the Gatling is very good at countering it when you are on the ground level. Citron can jump on the roofs and is to mobile to be caught by the explosion. The Sunflower has the Sunbeam and can build up enough distance when the barrel is not lit, so she can escape. Rose can just Goatfy the Captain, dening his damage reduction or use her Arcane enigma. The Kernel just doesn't care and busts the barrel with a Husk Hop. The Cactus can place a Tallnut to block the Barrel and escape in the meantime, of course while laying Potato mines around corners to catch the persuing Deadbeard off guard. (And a lot of players forget about the Potato Mines when chasing a seemingly vunerable Cactus). Speeking about Tallnuts, they can still be used to mount in top of roofs, which is something the Captain can't do as easily, serve as an emergency block Imp Punts, Super Ultra Balls and ZPGs and hide some Potato mines when blocking a narrow pathway. Last but not least, the overpowering Zombies. Scientist and Super Brainz fall in the same category: the class designed to counter you, provided they get close. Counters: Potato mines placed around corners to bait them in, or just not letting them get close. And sometimes you just get lucky hipfiring. I hae to agree about the Imps, but it is only because of their Health, because you can usually hit them once or twice, but never three times in a row.

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I agree on some points but you you've made a lot of blanket statements. (e.g. one potato mine won't kill a superbrains. You have to admit that it is by no means as simple as you've put it playing online.  I'm talking about making the classes even (cactus vs pirate/ sunflower vs scientist) in an attempt to even the playing field. As far as I'm concerned if I'm a cactus versing a pirate, the abilities, health and power should be  equal. I shouldn't have to go and play another separate character to kill what is supposed to be my equal.

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@TallerGoblin

You make a mistake that plenty of people on this forum have made already. You assume that the Plants and Zombie classes should be mirrors, but they just fill the same roles. Let's compare the Chomper to the Super Brainz. The Chomper is a sneaky assasin that is centered around defending a point. To accomplish his job, he's equipped with a stun, an insta-kill move that also renders him invulnerable and can be used as a movement tool and a trap that can disable any damage reducing ability and turns the Zombie into a free kill. Super Brainz is a close range brawler with a fairly powerfull damage ability and a range attack to soften up targets to make up for the lack of an instant kill, a movement ability that also deals damage (altough not a lot) and an ability that was supposed to be a defensive move that allows him to finish of an opponent he was on low HP, but after complains that it was too weak, it turned into an offensive ability that allows to deal considerable amount of damage to groups of Plants while being hard to kill. The only thing that they have in common is that they are best at close range. The Cactus and Deadbeard are different as well. While Deadbeard is somewhat more versitile with his abilities and the Shotgun, the Cactus is the better sniper, because she has needs less shots to kill and has a faster rate of fire. I could go on and on, but I need to get back to work right now

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It's no mistake and it's crippling the game. There's a reason why people are leaving this game in truckloads.  All I want is the same enjoyable play style as in GW1, not this hot mess. Is it fair that Superbrains should get  tens and tens of kills and that the peashooter shouldn't? By the way Superbrains has no flaws (hell, his laser has further reach than the camo cactus)

It's funny that you should run straight to the chomper considering he's the only plant that can hold his own with any zombie. Suggestions for the sunflower???

Any clown with half a brain can see that the plants are severely under powered. Nobody gets to the end of maps anymore when the zombies are defending.

I feel like we are going to have to agree to disagree.

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When is Super Brainz able to rack up tons of kills? Usually, most Super Brainz won't go on insane killing sprees because they still perform best at close range, which is also where you die the fastest. Unless we take Electro Brainz into consideration, because that guy is completly broken. His laser does not have any over the top ranged capabilities. It deals only a moderate amount of damage and has some unpleasant recoil to compensate. And everywhere where you can hit somebody with the laser, you can also hit with the Camo Cactus because both are hitscan weapons with unlimited range and pinpoint accuracy. And Super Brainz has the fatale flaw to rely on his movement abilities to be any kind of menace, which leaves him vunerable to the Chomper, Citron and his nemesis Rose which have two CC abilities to stop him.

The Chomper definetivly isn't the only Plant that stands a chance. Any Citron works fine, and the default, Druid and Fire Rose are still very effective with the homing upgrade and even without, their abilities help to shut down Super Brainz, Deadbeard, the Scientist and the Imp. The Kernel and Pea are also quite decent altough he requires map knowlage and awarness of Scientist ambushes. The Cacti lacks some sort of direct pushing ability, but the Corn Strike can help to clear out a contested point and in my opinion, she is still the better sniper in comparison to Deadbeard because Sharkbite is the only one able to go toe to toe with most variants, still feels inferior to the Camo Cactus, or at least, is inferior to me as the Camo Cactus. I should also add that every other Sharkbite is inferior to his Cacti counterpart due to damage, ammo and rate of fire.

As far as the Sunflower goes the only Plant class that feels weak in this game, I suggested to give her the unique ability to overheal, which would indirectly buff the entire Plant team, because their is no justification for the Scientist to be just as good at supporting as the Sunflower. 

While some Zombies are broken in the way that they completly outclass the default variant (which is supposed to be the most versatile and reliable variant) or render some other classes useless (Super Brainz makes the Alll-Star jealous) I feel that the Plants still stand a chance, if they play smart enough. And every so often, when I get a team not only composed of Corns but some Roses, Cacti, Peashooter and somebody else playing Citron, we can win. But that is just my opinion

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"When is superbrains able to rack up tons of kills?" - Have you been living under a rock these last two months???? I'm mean seriously that is gold!

He is the most over powered character out there regardless of the variant:

- Can jump super high as much as he wants (peashooters super jump is now obsolete)

- Has a laser with more range and accuracy than any cactus

- Has crippling short range attacks and once he starts punching you its lights out

- has a super kick that can be used either to damage or very quickly get in range of you. He can either run away super quick combining it with the super jump or get right next to you in a matter of seconds.

- Has way too much health (that was the all star's thing). Something's definitely wrong if 4 plants are trying to take down one superbrains and all the plants die in the attempt.

- Has a tornado ability that he can spawn while practically taking no damage, killing large groups of plants and slows down and takes away plants ability (even chompers burrow which is the only plant that can stop him in that mode)

Your ignorance its indicative of you being a zombie supporter and that you like the disadvantage the plants are at. I'm promoting balance for both teams so its not just a one sided blow out.

Dude the only brains I ever see at podium after turf takeover is electro brains.  Brains have the hit box of a barn and when your team is able to aim half decent they're simple to decimate from across the batt field.  

Only issues I have is electro brains beam dmg and maybe rose not being able to jump as high.

You can't compare GW2 and GW1 the map designs are completely different. GW1 maps had 3 paths of choice mostly blocked or funnelled into these paths and filled with many high vantage points to capture and hold over your opponents and it was centred around the plants being defensively laid and zombies as offensive assaults, GW2 maps are entirely open extremely wide with little high vantage points not inaccessible or reachable by just about every class, using drones, buddies and abilities to find secret hiding holes and places to get to is not a thing in GW2 as its very restricted  and mostly kept to the ground level.

The classes are what they are and that's fine I can live with that Peashooters are still awesome most of mine are mastered, same with most chompers again most mastered, Citrons cool also mastered. The damage ratio of Electro Brains is just ridiculous and my only real major complaint it makes playing as a sunflower impossible because you can't heal anybody without instant death due to the fact the beam kills you faster than the person its targeting in about 2 seconds flat.
Sharkbites shot has a splash radius I realised this when using him in the shooting range which gives it greater precision and a better hitbox it also has a better clip then cacti much like how a sunflowers sunbeam cuts through parts of the map. I'm a terrible cactus its my worst class yet I could honestly say I am the worlds best sniper with Sharkbite..that's saying something. Also those 4 shots are relatively fast.

As for people leaving in droves my friends and I are struggling to find more than 1 server running and tonight a total of just 6-8 people from our Region playing at an optimal hour. This may also be due to lag mostly every time anyone joins in or leaves the server, game freezes, and many other little bugs that occur.