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Re: How a lack of variety (and variants) killed ops.

Quite the long post, but then, so are most of mine!

1-I do like variants but had that made the AI versions of players with variable upgrades (and added more characters), they could have varied them up at least a bit. You don't even see wizards in Ops at all. Had they launched with more new characters, and added them faster over the life of the game, this could have mitigated the lack of variants at least partially. The blandness of the variety of enemies we fight in Ops is a major problem with BfN. The lack of AI variants (like more shield variants and such), hurts here too.

2-The special waves are not only limited, they aren't even working properly at times. Getting the 'huge wave' bonus wave and then the next wave is actually larger, doesn't work well. In GW1, as you point out, some of those special waves were crazy difficult, even on normal difficulty (no one take any damage at all as just one example), but we lost the mini gardens and such for GW2 but it still has it's own unique challenge waves as well. The fact that we only have a couple of these in BfN and even then, they don't always work, is a major letdown.

3-I've mentioned the lack of special minions before as well. Where are the backup dancers for the disco zombie boss, the vampire zombies for Baron Von Bats, and so on? Part of why I do like BfN, but not as much as the earlier games is this lack of variety. One of the things I love about the tower defense games and Heroes is the massive variety in plants and zombies, BfN falls far short in this regard. 

4-Part of this issues is that instead of the actual 3 individual slots, we just get the one and it comes off odd and feels less engaging. I really like the elite bosses overall as they're like much shorter versions of GW2's boss hunts, but they really needed to balance these better as some are actually pretty easy (disco boss), and some are really tough (yeti). These should have been made more unique and make the challenge level more equal across the board.

5-GW1 is the hardest of the bunch and I feel that GW2 tuned the difficulty very well. BfN does feel like it's always on the easy difficulty level, but then we can't select a level which I also miss. I almost always play on normal in GW1 and GW2 Ops, but sometimes got to Craaazzzzy or easy to get quests done. Chomper could be a liability in Ops in GW1 and 2 as they are so limited to melee. I'd say that Chomper in BfN needs some tweaks as it is though.

I'm mostly indifferent to sprinting. If they remove it for the next game I'm not going to complain, and I'm sick of people running away all the time in BfN, but I'm largely used to it now.

I liked the grave/garden idea from the GW games more than the machine versions in BfN. It is rare that I see it take much damage.

I've not noticed that Sunflower Queen crit thing. That beam is nasty in GW2 and largely ignorable in BfN as she doesn't do it for long.

I really miss evacuations. They could be rough in GW1 especially, but I love that whole idea and it needs to come back for a new game.

Difficulty settings would be very welcome.

I've never been knocked off an OPs map in any of the games, I've had bosses and AI teammates do that though! Not even with the berserkers, have I been knocked off. Of course, many of the Ops maps in the games you can't be unless in specific spots anyway.

I actually prefer the BfN version of 'no damage to the garden/grave' as a single stray soldier bullet could ruin that special wave mission in GW1 and GW2 and that was frustrating, especially when questing in GW2.

I think the cooldown system could work and with full Ops teams it's not terrible, but we need more consumables available as we just don't have enough of any of the consumables in BfN. 

Overheal is another thing I'm mostly neutral on. If it goes away, I'm not going to worry about it. Healing in general is just too strong in BfN though.

Wave spawning feels very odd in BfN and it gets annoying when you see icons somewhere and nothing spawns there at all. In GW1 and 2 you may get a spawn spot that is only like 2 basic browncoats, but something will spawn at every icon.

The waves can feel long and tedious as they work in BfN and they're often so spread out that the only threat is with a bad team or when they spawn too close to the objective.

Other things I would bring up:

  • Dill pickle boss is super annoying with the knockback spam. I'm glad to see more bosses, but they need to be more interesting instead of just obnoxious.
  • More variety in special waves is needed. (and fix the ones that aren't working properly).
  • Let us use AI teammates for solo Ops.
  • Give us the option to enchant the location.
  • More than 1 spot to spawn the objective like we had in GW1 and GW2 would be better than just 1 spot available.

4 Replies

  • stukapooka's avatar
    stukapooka
    Legend
    5 years ago

    @Iron_Guard8Gw1 was hard due to the more frustrating mechanics that gw2 removed for actual difficulty from the enemy rather than the game itself.

    Tge gardenator just doesnt feel pvzish imo gw1 has the best garden (it looks so innocent) and 2 has the best tombstone look.

    Gw1 Chomper in ops was a meme (fighting the baron was especially painful due to the self heal per bite), he was better in gw2 with more health, regeneration, and chomp cannon (a very underrated ability imo) but on higher difficulties felt like imp in that he's not worthless and with a good player and team can be a massive help but their job is definitely made harder and neither of them should be stacked unless you know what you're doing or you're once again just memeing.

    I'm not denying that garden warfare chomper wasn't a gimmicky character in the first place but I honestly liked playing him more than bfn chomper who just feels kind of there (especially with the emphasis now on nightcap being the assassin character), I was in huge favor of the mass voted back chomp rework where players would have to use the aim button to swallow attack or a potential buff could be to give chomper health for eating items like newspapers and outhouses as it would encourage players to attack more armored enemies with swallow attacks.

    Wizard feels like torchwood and hovergoat in that they released them but never really made them attack in ops, wizard has multiplayer ai and wood/goat had team ops ai.

    Special ai zombies feel like they were left out due to time as we both know bfn was made under a very short time and the special zombies felt like they were created to fight players specifically and crush ai as they could knock them back, heal from basic attacks that wiped out pots due to their slower fire rate, get onto rooftops (once again bfn lacks verticality and it really hurts the maps unlike gw1 and 2 where the high ground was only accessible by creative players and was abundant in areas) by karate zombie spinning into the air or back up dancers showing their sick moves, and their respective bosses dont feel the same without their iconic minions.

    We also lost the pirate themed zombies which is a shame.

    I miss the spawnables and I feel like the cooldown is unnecessary in the game and it kills the defensive strategy in ops, just remove it and actually balance the spawnables if you dont want spam of one character. I also really miss the missing spawnables like I dont care if snapdragon or laser bean was a meme I miss them and pea cannon is now just repeater (just make pea cannon shoot and reload faster than repeater as a difference to balance them).

    Bitter dill feels like the plant yeti in that hes more fast and annoying than actually deadly.

    The lack of bots was a straight downgrade from gw2 no debate.

    The lack of unique bosses isnt helping the series in anyway.

    Elite bosses are a neat concept that was sadly executed poorly as some were way too easy like disco zombie just spinning but he's invincible (imagine if you had to stop a dance section and if you failed the map would be swarmed with backup dancers. and I would prefer full on boss hunt events but I wouldn't mind seeing this return more refined in a gw3.

    Sunflower queens beam melted you on crazy and why it was so important to attack her as she charged as she was defenseless in that period.

    As you said constant new characters could've prevented stagnation from lack of variants but we only got 1 truly new class and 2 ai's in a whole year and only one map added to the ops playlist.

    Bfn stretches and inflates its waves to try and make players feel like their involved but ut really just predictably narrows the ai into kill groups as they arrive really fast.

    Evacuations made the ending in ops feel earned abd the presence of actually losing the game and team members was there.

    Graveyard Ops still has the glitch of an enemy spawning out of the map and ruining the game.

    Super bean ai acts like he forgot why he showed up in bfn where he was once the most dreaded boss on crazy in gw2 (a boss hunt with a chili bean was found in gw2 files.

    Certain difficulties allowed certain deadlier variants to attack like toxic brainz only showing up crazy or tank commander on easy, it really varied the threat in each difficulty and the difficulty sped up the waves each class and variants would arrive on faster.

    Overall if bfn can break even for another game I hope they can truly build up ops in a potential gw3 to make it the mode it deserves to be.

  • ejhsega's avatar
    ejhsega
    5 years ago

    I would like to see most of this in phase 3.  I like the added sprint button, and am indifferent about overheal.  I think consumables should have their own in game currency as I hated running out in GW or having it compete with variant unlocks.

  • stukapooka's avatar
    stukapooka
    Legend
    5 years ago
    @ejhsega I think we should be able to use them whenever and wherever as running out was a pain in garden warfare but only being to use two per game due to the time cool down is just as dumb in bfn imo.
  • ejhsega's avatar
    ejhsega
    5 years ago

    Using the defenses when and where ever would be the best.

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