Thing is that a nerf shouldnt make a signature card unplayable. they certainly did this with cliquepeas and it was more or less apropriate I think. But in the case of fossilhead I think it might be more apropriate to fix the shell around it instead of the card itself. Fossilhead would remain a great card but the rest of the dedicated deck wouldn´t be as good as its now
@daalnnii wrote:
@wonoz I think people just need to stop crying because they haven't figured out how/don't have the cards/suck too bad to actually beat things.
With what zombies have now, did clique peas really need to be gutted? I sure don't think so. But hey, you don't hear those hypocrites crying that an untrickable 5/6 on turn two, and three with going viral by turn five is too strong. Why because it's mindless to play and that's right where their skill sits.
I don't want anything nerfed, I just want people start figuring out how to beat these decks, instead of whining when they can't just push an "I win" button anymore.
I'm sure as more of us plant players figure out how to counter these cards, they'll cry more, and never even consider that plants have team up... Zombies have overshoot, deadly, gravestone, frenzy, the best strikethrough, the best card draw, the best untrickable, the ability to completely change play order... But yeah, clique peas needed a Nerf and they needed no brainier cards because it's easier than actually putting thought into how you play.
I relish that I made it to ultimate this season playing plants because most of you still suck with the crazy advantage you have this season.
Learn to play, stop crying op every time someone beats you, and just enjoy the cards you have and stop worrying about what I have.
Stop nerfing everything!!!
I'm sure there are some people who are just whining because they can't figure out how to play, but you can't simply dismiss every complaint as being unjustified. Sometimes a card is actually OP and needs a change. Other times a card isn't OP, but still needs a change because it's simply no fun. Personally, I haven't encountered Fossilhead much, so I can't speak to him personally, but it does seem awfully potent in the early game, and I could see Untrickable easily getting out of hand if not addressed.
I also can't help but thinking you're a little biased in your assessment of the game. In particular, you seem to severely underestimate how powerful Team-Up is (in addition to leaving out Plants having the better healing and overall tending towards better synergy), meaning zombies need Strikethrough or Frenzy to have a chance of getting to the most powerful, protected plants. Not to mention, plants have more and better anti-trick cards, which can absolutely shut down some zombie decks (not having access to Team-Up, zombies tend to rely more on tricks than plants do).
You also seem to characterize the majority of zombie players as whiners who just want an easy button, but the majority of plant players as more skilled players who really know how to play. Yet it doesn't take much searching to find on both sides people who simply whine and people who actually want to improve the game. Add to that the fact that just a month or two ago it seemed that plants were vastly more popular than zombies, and now it's the reverse; and suddenly it becomes clear that the majority of players simply go where the strengths are at a given time, rather than being dedicated to one side or the other.
I guess the long and short of it is that not all nerfing is bad, and not everyone calling for it is doing so because they want easy wins. Balancing an asymmetric game like this is tough, and mistakes will happen, but sometimes changes can be made to help bring things more into balance.
@daalnnii Understood. But sometimes when good players are experimenting, they find that something is so overpowered or leads to such a negative playing experience that it needs to be nerfed. Sometimes the solution is simply "git gud", but other times there are real problems with balance that need to be addressed.
To be fair. The game mechanic that Zombies and Plants have different "turn" mechanisms makes this very hard to balance. Although its safe to say that by default Zombies turn order is slightly better.
The main flaw of the whole thing is the disparity of collecting cards vs. playing the side you wish to play. It is VERY VERY hard to keep up with both plants and zombies without stuffing money into it and the mixed boosters do not make this easier as well. Since zombies also have a tendency to be more combo-y you probably need more specific cards to play an efficient deck with them which eventually leads new players to playing plants. I mean why would you take the hard long road to collect your combo/synergy pieces if collecting efficient singles with plants is much more effective (one of Brainana is excellent; one of valkyrie sucks *) ?
An uneven number of zombie and plants players eventually leads to balancing towards the less favoured side to fix matchmaking.
the question is; why not just make exclusive plants/zombies boosters for each set and watch the problem fix itself?
no. not really. At least not here. I already mentioned the concept of "bridge building cards" in an other Thread but the resonsnace was sort of weak. I´d be happy to see the thread alive tho.
Here I just wanted to say that a booster in PvZ:H has a far lower probability to contain no cards of a specific hero at all then in virtually every other tcg. simply because, assuming each class has the same amount of cards, you already have a 50/50 chance to roll your less prefered faction and of these 50% you still got "only" 70% that you can use the card in the class you want to collect cards for.
In the end 7/20 seems like a pretty bad ration to draw a card you can even use. let alone the possibility that the card is even really good.
To be honest PvZ:H does a GREAT job at not printing magma ragers but I still think there should be boosters for 100 gems that contain either 5 plants or zombie cards. Making sure at least your rare is at least in your prefered faction would develop useful metagame much faster. Which is GOOD.
However. Yes. more modes would be fun I think.
?? Anyone wanting a pack with a 100% probability of cards specific to a particular hero just needs to go into the Collection page then go to Decks, then pick that hero, then pick a deck they don't have the cards for. It will give you the option to buy a pack for them. Rarity and probability being what it is generally you're getting * cards that you already have, and if you are free to play then it takes forever to build up those 4xLegendary decks that the elite seem to thrive with. But still if you are a proponent of a particular Hero you can slowly fill in the gaps you need in many cases.
Where I stand on the nerfing vs not thing: I'm new to the lingo and haven't researched any other forum to dissect the theories and trends of the game, but as far as I'm concerned I feel like the point of game balance is simply about tweaking the efficiency of cards to ensure that both sides have a generally even chance of winning overall. My vote is not to nerf any particular card, but if it proves too efficient for the value, simply re-cost it. Players will find counters to any strategy but its also possible that one side has an efficiency advantage.
I suspect the game designers like a teeter totter effect though, where one side wins for a while then a new release tilts the balance. That forces people to scramble and buy cards in order to catch up with the new dynamic after each release. But you do risk losing players if you tip the balance too far and players who enjoy winning suddenly lack options of the cards to compete.
I guess too many people were playing plants and the designers wanted to gin up a cadre of zombie loyalists. Because every tweak they made in the last news release was about improving the efficiency of zombies. As a plants partisan I did used to have to wait a while for a match and now I have instant enemies eager to put a beating on me. So thats... good?
Still its fair to have the debate about inefficiencies and imbalances and to identify cards that take it too far. And you want to have an on ramp for new players who have not yet earned or bought the cards for a L33t deck. I hate power creep in games where each new release has a chase card that you can't win without. Seems to me like you ought to be able to build a competitive deck out of the basic set, one that if you are clever can compete, if not dominate.
I'm proud of grinding away to Ultimate league, this was a harder slog than any other time, and I know i only made it in part because some of the Rustbolt mavens got bored of relentlessly winning, since the killer combos I saw early on petered out later in my run. Shrug. It was interesting to figure what worked. I personally had more success with Mushroom decks than with bounce or freeze decks. But it could be because I am new to the game and am discovering things people already tried and discarded, so Im making old thing new again. People know how to defeat them but dont bother to load up against them any more. I dunno.
The problem with allowing the zombies the tilt in their favour is that once one side has the easier win it runs out of opponents, or once you hit the UL thats it.. game over. Your then waiting, how ever many weeks, days til the reset of season or new cards. New cards make it take a while for everyone to test drive the cards, find that winning combination, or weakness of the opponent. The first week after a new season is mad with gamers, especially professional gamers that need to say yep did that, got it - move on to the next game. While your real fans of the game, who play day in day out and really learn what cards to do this or that, and who are needed to ensure the is always someone wanting to play casual, or rank rather than AI.
Its always nice to see the older basic cards being used, better than just seeing the constant same old easy win.. which once achieved that's it game over.
There needs to be a balance in the game. I keep thinking, there has to be something I'm missing from the plants. I know I need may more cards to be on the same level as many on the forum. However its not just the lack of legendaries in my own deck, but I think the plants need a bit more oomph in early game if the zombies cards are not going to altered. Zombies play first, then plants, and a zombie can then trick before combat begins. The first hit is a zombie. Therefore, the untrickable part should always be more towards plants favour. Why? because Zombies have so many more chances to counteract what the plant player puts down. Even if a zombie doesn't play a card, then they can trick. The plant player has to play a card that equals the zombie, or beats the zombie or go in a different lane to go face. It seems now that a plant is at the mercy of the zombie when that zombie is protected, and going viral, as well as buffed with dino roar and untrickable.
After the initial frenzy of cards bought, things calmed for a bit. Now, more new cards have been crafted purchased, or gained its slowly getting back to non stop barrage of OP zombies. I'm slowly grinding away to gain the cards I need but feel like I'm losing the battle.
