Favorite class?
Just started playing this past weekend, and I'm really enjoying the game. As a CoD and Planetside2 veteran, I've logged thousands of hours in on shooter games, but I've never had as much fun pew pew...
Forum Discussion
@TRlALON wrote:@RogueZeroRendarSorry to say, but this really doesn't appear to be right from my point of view. Maybe because it's a matter of each person's playstyle and preference.
Unlike as you stated, most enemy blaster heroes get almost insta-killed when I play Rey because I'm usually ambushing them and/or use the mindtrick to give them a harder time to dodge properly.
Almost Insta Killed? With what? 169 damage + 130 damage (maybe a lucky 145 here instead)? That is about half Bossk's health, barely above Boba's half health, and not even half the health of any other villain
Are they full health enemies? In engagements where they have the numerical superiority? If they aren't full health, nor have the numerical superiority, then they fall under those categories I stated where Rey has an advantage, as that necessarily means you have the backing of your team (which is either making enemies not keep at full health all the time, or forcing them to engage separately, which allows Rey to go one on one on some enemies). With teamwork any hero can excel in HvV, as teamwork is the most important factor to account for a team's advantage. And Rey especially benefits a lot from teamwork.
OTOH picture yourself with rey alone against multiple enemy villains and tell me what's the best she can do. In a scenario with very good to expert players, Rey will at most stall them, and maybe kill an unfortunate villain who makes mistakes, or who is already low on health from a previous interaction. She isn't Vader who can take them all and even kill some, nor Palpatine who can dodge brilliantly and keep damaging enemies like there's no tomorrow. Heck she can't even put pressure from afar as she has no ranged damaging move. Luke, Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Yoda are better picks for such situations because of their arsenal: Luke and Ani for their ranged moves which chain together and give lots of recover time (add to that they both have a 360° damaging ranged move), Obi for his excellent defenses, and Yoda for being bulkier and more nimble.
And Mind Trick does nothing against dodges. If your enemies are having a hard time dodging while mind tricked by Rey, then they can't be good players at all. Rey's Mind trick is the easiest effect to deal with, even Leia's old flash grenade effect was harder to deal with then Rey's Mind Trick.
@TRlALON wrote:Also counts for saber heroes, all I need to to is basically just catch them off guard once or knock them to the ground in an open 1 vs 1 with dash and then deal not so weak damage due to the dash dmg increase card as well as the mind trick dmg + insight dmg increase.
The fact that knocked targets don't fly 100 m away first but instead can be attacked right away matters a lot too.
Great players aren't caught off guard unless you have a good team putting some good pressure. Then again, Rey will take advantage of that like I had already said. However, as I've been saying, picture yourself in unfair situations, and what rey can do? When the enemies are stacked, and your team is having a hard time to group up, what will Rey do against the 4-villains stack? She'll never ambush, she'll be ambushed, and then she'll turlte stall them the best she can. If they have good saber oppression and Iden, Rey can't do anything about it. All other sabers can at least use abilities to separate enemies. Ani can stall in HM stance for 90% DR, and Obi the same with AoP for 80% DR. Yoda is nimble, can get temp health, and has an unblockable attack which doubles as a dash. Luke has 2 abilities to control the field and a similar ability to Yoda with the difference it doesn't pass through blocks.
That damage you mention is the one I've put above, at most 314 damage, which requires a mind trick before dash strike, which means throwing your ambush up earlier, and maybe missing the dash strike altogether. That's one of the weakest in the game. All pushers (pull, repulse, anything like that included) can try a hard combo of push + air strike + strike when landing (this one can be through an ability). Rey can't. Luke and Ani can chain 2 of their skills together and deliver a final strike. Ani can do that with 3 skills. Obi, maybe the hardest to pull that air strike after push, can deal 180 damage with his AoP and then chain with a ground strike for 130 more, still stronger then Rey's.
And the fact enemies aren't launched 100 m away is also a problem because Rey can't separate enemies at all, which make unfair engagements always result in every enemy flocking to Rey and she striving to survive, whereas all other Sabers can push people 100 m away and then focus on one enemy at a time.
@TRlALON wrote:Ability reload timers are fast too.
Only weakness I see is in the defence because of what I've previously mentioned. Or if the enemy team sticks together well though this is a general problem for any saber hero if the own team isn't coordinated.
Ability reload times are indeed fast, even for Mind Trick, the slowest of them. That's an advantage, which she shares with many other heroes and villains. Grievous being maybe the one with the most advantage due to that.
I really failed to understand how the defence can be her problem. She has a great dodge, and can use up to 3 with a Star Card. She has an amazing Stamina pool, which rivals Rage Vader and Stamina God Obi, she can remove the ability of enemies to sprint with mind trick, which helps her turtling, and, amazingly, after you block most of the enemy's arsenal, you can line up them somehow and dash strike all of them for a spectacular escape. The only thing Rey truly excels in is in her survival abilities, and that's something she can do with some good degree of success against unfair situations.
The enemy team sticking together is the rule, if that doesn't happen, then it's GG easy match. I'm assuming a good enemy team, so they'll cooperate to a substantial degree. Maybe not a perfect premade, but players who know how to synergize at least a bit. And all heroes and villains can do something about enemy stacks, some better then others, but ultimately the idea is always to stall the encounter so your team has time to catch up to you. Vader being Vader can sometimes take them all. Boba can keep from afar shooting. Iden can put pressure with her secondary fire while holding her shock to go for the kill. Ani can chain his skills and take a 90% DR stance. Obi can stall a lot due to his great stamina and best HP regen, and even has a 80% DR stance to stall a bit more. Luke is incredibly fast and has 2 moves which help controlling the field due to the knockdown and push effects, and 1 move that helps him be even faster, aside from the fastest HP regen and a fast Stamina regen, the true hit and run hero. Yoda is bulkier due to the temp health, he's immune to stamina drain from Palpatine, and has the most damaging push ability of them all, with a huge AoE (you just have to charge it which is incredibly easy when facing multiple enemy villains). I could go on, but I think it's clear that from all heroes and villains, the one with the least effectiveness in unfair situations is Rey. And from my experience, you must become good at these to at least allow your team to regroup, and then start separating enemies to do to them what they were doing to you.
@TRlALON wrote:I mean let's compare it to Dooku: His high dmg output is often useless when I play him or play against him because clever opponents will just wait it out until weakness and/or duelist wears off. So to not be killed by him, just don't attack him and wait for the right time.
Not so for Rey, a Rey pro can still circle around you like Grievous and break your guard. He just needs to time correctly to not dash into choke abilities.
Mind trick is better applied very shortly before using a critical maneuver, even when attacking from behind, or else this basically blows the entire attack plan because the opponent can prepare and it draws their attention to you.
That's a great example, as Dooku is the weakest pick for the Dark Side. Even then, he does have a ranged damaging move and he can damage multiple enemies at once with one skill, which also knocks them down and not 100m away, allowing for a quick strike, which can be preceded by the activation of Duelist if the player is very fast and the situation gives him enough time. Also EW slows you besides messing with your sprint, which allows Dooku with his 3 dodges to get you easier then Rey can with mind trick, and with the added debuff on Damage Reduction. Dooku is also a better ambusher then Rey despite being clumsier, because his strikes are faster and stronger and because his debuff is more effective for ambushes. He also has a much better HP Regen and default state Stamina. I'm much better with Rey then Dooku, no doubt, but a good Dooku is definitely more effective then a good Rey in ambushing, dueling, and defending, not in surviving, in hit and run tactics, or in helping teammates. For unfair situations, I think Dooku is better, although he too is a really bad choice. Any 3v1 or 4v1 against Dooku usually means his death or at least getting severely damaged, but he has much more chances of striking down at least one enemy due to his rare chance of engaging an unfortunate enemy at the right time while with his buffs and/or enemy debuff.
@TRlALON wrote:In short, there must be a reason why I can kill people and spearhead flanks/assaults the most effective as Rey.
For Luke and Kenobi it's often more a pure parry game unless Luke uses middle ability usccessfully because opponents don't fly away that far.
Sure, I can dodge Rey's dashes too, but it's definitely harder to pull off and bring more risk.
Sure there must be a reason to that, and to me it's due to several other factors which are much more important to determine that then how strong or weak a Hero is. Overall experience of players, how much teamwork each team is employing, which enemies she's facing, and other things are more important then using a better or worse character. When I say she's a weak hero, I mean comparatively. All heroes and villains are strong enough for the game to be somewhat fair. Aside from experience, I think teamwork is by far the most important aspect to decide a match because this game favors stun chains, and teaming is a great way to nullify the threat of some enemies, while focus dealing with the rest, preferably one by one. And all Heroes and Villains have enough skills to synergize very well in many different team combinations. So overall she isn't weak, but comparing to all the others, she's weak, due to what she lacks, and due to all her effective roles being overshadowed by other heroes and villains, even in her best one which is surviving.
Your dmg calculation was flawed because it doesn't take into account that very often a second hit before enemy can fully recover from dash is possible.
With some luck even a third due to slow reaction of the opponent or lag.
Also rear attacks. Also, especially when attacking from the side/rear, I use regular attacks first and the dash once the opponent blaster starts rolling and shooting back. Even if I just do a straight dash, I only need to counter-dodge their rolls which results in a fast death for the blasters.
"Instakill" means melting them in such little time that just feels like instantly.
Unless they get saved by some saber hero, they die.
If what you've stated would be true, I'd never really be able to defeat any blaster hero.
And yes, good players are caught off guard too just as they can get grabbed by Anakin, don't try to deny that.
Else that'd mean that every single player I've ever killed as Rey in some way was a bloody noob which can obviously hardly be true.
Many of the issues or advantages you named against ccordinated teams are basically just the same when playing as any other saber hero.
What do you think to do with your magnet/push if the enemy just blocks it? Ranged abilities are just as good as they are when hitting the target successfully.
Rey's 2 cents here are dancing like Grievous which has a higher chance to circumvent their block from an initial upfront stance.
So uhm... I just disagree here. Her prime ability in HvH is not surviving, but dealing heavy damage in very short time.
Well, which in turn encourages surviving because dead villains... won't hurt her... I guess.
If she couldn't deal that damage so well I wouldn't use her. Makes sense for me.
Speaking about what you mentioned about the "unfair situations" for Rey just confirms what I stated previously about she being weak defensively.
Unlike Luke, Kenobi or Maul she can't take a break from getting her stamina worn down once people stick to her because of no push and dash ability.
Only one dash available to attempt a breakthrough.
Her good stamina is only temporary and you only have 3 dodges if you use that star card. Even if you have both active atm, it usually won't get you out of the fight or help your stamina to recover. Well, not that it's so well with anyone else to get 3 of them at once. Anakin has poor stamina too and Yoda, well his block...
So yeah, weak in a comparison to her great attack potential. Like Maul can just make the entire enemy team trying to pursue him look dumb.
Afterall, everything depends from your skill and how good you opponents are, heroes are specialized overall.
So in an evenly skilled team match where no one is to be killed easily, everything might play well together.
Any stun from any character can open the door for another team mate to follow up.
Just as it's common sense to not attack alone as Rey against a line of villains it most likely won't work well either when trying to advance alone as Luke/Anakin just like that.
And no, it doesn't mean that Rey can only prevail when having great team support. I have carried many teams that were worse than the opponent team so far.
"So overall she isn't weak, but comparing to all the others, she's weak, due to what she lacks, and due to all her effective roles being overshadowed by other heroes and villains, even in her best one which is surviving."
Again, disagree. Don't really see what she lacks for the role she plays and she is definitely not overshadowed in all her roles.
If I can kill people as fast like this, blaster heroes would have like zero chance against her if she deals more base dmg with her saber which would bring her close to being op in that manner. Dooku has clear restrictions in relation to his high dmg, while Rey is basically a wildcard because of lots of other freedoms.
Also don't forget that this isn't Overwatch, heroes were designed for both HvH and infantry modes too.
Rey's Insight is even kinda nerfed in HvH or just less effective due to the different minimap mechanics.
For Anakin it's a boring and static wait until the magnet refreshes while as what Rey can do, there are simply no ranged abilities needed to deal heavy damage in both modes.
Finally, we might just scrap this discussion because in the end it's all just dependant from how good you feel with X hero and whether you want to use it in that match situation or not.
@TRlALON
The damage calculation is entirely correct, what you're saying is that more hits are possible, which doesn't make sense: The second hit while the enemy is "still" impaired is only possible if the player is either not that good, or he's playing with high ping (in my experience, anything above 100 will do), so against good players with their 10 to 30 ping, you'll never get the second hit. Following hits make even less sense as now the enemy has the tools to engage, so this isn't a combo. You even admit it has to be either due to a slow opponent or lag, things that invalidate the argument completely, because we can't compare the strengths and weaknesses of heroes by taking lack of player experience or lag into consideration. Meanwhile, if you're opening yourself to attack 3 times in a row, the enemy team has more then enough time to catch you offguard. This is so common in advanced gameplay that I'm surprised you seem to not be used to it at all.Rey has only +20 damage from the rear, the least a Hero can have, and activating Dash Strike too close oftenly results in it missing, unless you quickly turn to compensate for that. But again, this is a lucky 3 hit chain, which as I said above, is forcing you to stay open for attacks for 3 consecutive moves (one which can last relatively long) and that gives enough time for the DS to use any of their CC moves on you and break your combo altogether.
"Instakill" means melting them in such little time that just feels like instantly.
Then it isn't Instakill, especially when you have to hit the enemy many times in a row, which will always leave you open for their teammates to disrupt your moves. Instakill could be Vader's Choke Combo: If the Choke gets you, you'll face the wrath of his entire combo, or at least the Choke + Air Strike + Throw, which then allows Vader to be CCed out of his combo. But with no allies around you, then he'll be able to catch you landing as well. But even that isn't Instakill against full health enemies (and AFAIK it's the best one character combo the game has to offer nowadays), so Rey definitely can't instakill anyone.
Only if they are saved by their friends, which they'll be, as again we're checking situations which are unfair to the player at hand, not the other way around. What I stated is true, how you reached the conclusion you wouldn't be able to defeat any blaster hero if what I say is true is beyond me. I was very clear there are several other factors in a game to decide that, and if caught off guard or separated from the enemy team, blaster heroes can be easy meal for Rey, or any saber actually. However, if you're facing an unfair situation, you'll never kill their blaster hero, unless he was already low health in the beginning of the encounter, because he won't be caught off guard and because he'll have the backing of his teammates, and in such a situation there's little Rey can do.
And yes, good players are caught off guard too just as they can get grabbed by Anakin, don't try to deny that.
Yes they can be caught off guard, if your team is putting enough pressure. If not, they'll become a stack and will start stomping your team, and when enemies do that they simply aren't caught offguard at all. Also, you're comparing a ranged damaging move which has a huge range and a somewhat quick activation time against Rey's Arsenal. Yes, you can catch an enemy who slips his block for 1 second, or who misses his dodge if he has no block, but you won't catch all the enemies, and then if Ani decides to focus hit the enemy(ies) he grabbed with his Pull, then the enemies who weren't caught will punish Ani in no time. It's useful in unfair situations, but far from good. Rey OTOH can only take enemies offguard in Melee range, at which point it's muuuuuuch harder for the enemy to be caught without blocking, or not dodging at the right time for the evasion. You miss the point where a 4 enemy stack is always aware where the enemy is because of the radar, and because at that point you have 4 players constantly checking the radar and guiding themselves to engage the enemies 1 by 1.
Else that'd mean that every single player I've ever killed as Rey in some way was a bloody noob which can obviously hardly be true.
Also stop bringing these exggerated and simplistic statements that fail to address all the nuances I'm putting when discussing this topic. We're not discussing about how average players perceive the game. If you want to do that, then it's not for me, I've been playing this game since pre-release, I have 2400+ hours on this game, and before they butchered HvV me and my pal R1K were hunting for Killstreak World Records in HvV. In this case, there are many levels between noob and pro, so if we remove all the fair situations in which you killed with Rey, all the situations where the teams you faced weren't composed of majorly or totally coordinated good players (as we aren't dealing with either of those), then everytime you killed enemies in the unfair situations as Rey was either due to the enemy being low health already, or luck. I'm being very specific here, so I ask you to stop ignoring the restrictions and giving generic simplistic statements that try to disprove my statements by ignoring those very restrictions.
About the confirmation that her defense is weak, you're telling me that a juggernaut of blocking who can turtle better then anyone except Vader and Obi, whose only issue when blocking is the lack of damaging and controlling moves to break the constant attacks to her block, is a bad defender? In my world this is called offensive lacking, not defensive lacking. She can withstand ages by turtling, which gives her friends enough time to comeback. All others (besides obi) have much less stamina and must rely on their skills to survive. If their skills are gone, they are dead or at least crippled. Rey OTOH can withstand wihthout a single ability activated for quite sometime, enough to regain her buff and debuff, which allows her to withstand infinitely if done correctly. Her most glaring issue in turtling is facing bombarding blaster heroes, as she has no way to nullify their actions while also avoiding the chasing sabers. So OK, she has less options to break free of such engagements, but that's usually very hard against a stack of good coordinated players, so stalling them is muuuch better, for you force them to use their stamina and skills on you, while your team comes for the rescue, which gives them an easier time for the enemies are alredy engaged, with their staminas not on 100%, and some abilities on cooldown.
Many of the issues or advantages you named against ccordinated teams are basically just the same when playing as any other saber hero.
Exactly!! Why you think I said Rey is very resourceful, but all her proficiencies are overshadowed by another character? She faces difficulties like any other Hero, but she performs worse in all of them. Her strength is that she may fit in many roles and situations, but there will always be a better pick for that role or situation. So she excels as a companion, a support character, who takes the role that is needed at the time it's needed. In the unfair situations OTOH the best and almost only thing she can do is stall, and she does that very well.
Unlike Luke, Kenobi or Maul she can't take a break from getting her stamina worn down once people stick to her because of no push and dash ability.
Her regen delay is very small and the regen itself is fast, one use of Mind trick, or using 3 dodges in a row, is enough to regain more then half your stamina. I rarely ever run out of stamina with her, and I'm very used to stalling a 4 enemy stack.Her good stamina is only temporary and you only have 3 dodges if you use that star card. Even if you have both active atm, it usually won't get you out of the fight or help your stamina to recover.
Again, it can be sustained fairly easily even with a 4 stack against you, especially with the 3 dodges card. If one isn't using this card with her in HvV... well... It's not the same Rey we're talking about. 3 dodges is one of her best traits, it was the only true buff she received in the history of this game, the Dash Strike one was lucky and was somehting that affected many heroes, not her specifically (and Grievous's is better, even now after the glitch was fixed). So yeah, with both active, you'll sustain your stamina very efficiently. Maybe that's why many times in the history of this game (and let us only take post Insight rework, because before it literally meant infinite stamina) people accused my rey of infinite stamina, I guess they must think it's impossible just like you stated.
Anakin doesn't have poor stamina, elaborate on that please. Also, what about yoda's marvelous block?
Afterall, everything depends from your skill and how good you opponents are, heroes are specialized overall.
So in an evenly skilled team match where no one is to be killed easily, everything might play well together.
Any stun from any character can open the door for another team mate to follow up.
Just as it's common sense to not attack alone as Rey against a line of villains it most likely won't work well either when trying to advance alone as Luke/Anakin just like that.
And no, it doesn't mean that Rey can only prevail when having great team support. I have carried many teams that were worse than the opponent team so far.
And I guess this here makes it clear why you can't see truth in what I'm saying. This discussion doesn't depend on player skill, or on how good opponents are, or if the teams are evenly matched, or if Rey can carry a team. This discussion only takes into account playing against the odds. You can't see Rey's weaknesses in other situations, because like I said she not only plays better with teamwork (like anyone really), but she excels on it. So I assume a very good and coordinated enemy team, and you being the best your team has to offer, and also a bit of faith that if you stall enemies long enough your team will regroup. If you team is completely oblivious to teamplay, then it's a lost cause anyway and you better switch lobbies.
If I can kill people as fast like this, blaster heroes would have like zero chance against her if she deals more base dmg with her saber which would bring her close to being op in that manner. Dooku has clear restrictions in relation to his high dmg, while Rey is basically a wildcard because of lots of other freedoms.
Also don't forget that this isn't Overwatch, heroes were designed for both HvH and infantry modes too.
If you think I'm suggesting any changes, no I'm not. So it doesn't matter how she is in other modes, because I'm only stating HvV facts, not making a case for changes. But, if you ask me if I think she deserves a buff, I'll say sure she does. Starting by fixing her god damn Damaging Strike Star Card which is broken since 2018. But definitely not to her base damage. CC immunity to Dash Strike, it'll hardly affect bigger modes, just like Claw Rush, Choke, Choke Hold, Unrelenting Advance, Heroic Might, All-Out Push, or at least a stagger immunity, like Dark Aura. And IMO a 4th level ranged damaging move (she's all the Jedi afterall, she does have a good reason for a 4th ability). Could even be an ability which somehow (through the force) only affects villains and not troopers (a lightning attack). Or even a weak move, but that is ranged (a weak throw, maybe weaker then Maul's). Or a push. I'm pretty sure with enough thought given, a solution can be found that won't interfere with big modes. But that's just wishful thinking, as DICE never gave enough thought to anything post launch, and it's not like they'll touch this game ever again.
Rey's Insight is even kinda nerfed in HvH or just less effective due to the different minimap mechanics.
Yet it's still her best ability in HvV. I know many disagree with me, but to my playstyle Insight is definitely my best ally, Mind Trick is too weak against expert players, and Dash Strike is too risky. Insight can be performed without dropping your block, so it's risk free and versatile. When HvV didn't show enemies on the radar (good old days), it was even better.
Finally, we might just scrap this discussion because in the end it's all just dependant from how good you feel with X hero and whether you want to use it in that match situation or not.
Sorry, but it's not. The discussion is very specific, and does take into account the good Rey player is playing against the odds. You keep interpreting this as something bigger then it is. I'm only concerned with the unfair situations here, as I already assumed Rey is as good as any other Hero when it comes to HvV as a whole, and that she excels in teamwork and cooperation, which is a very useful trait for fair HvV matches. But when it comes to holding your ground and trying to win against the odds, Rey is usually a sitting duck which can at best stall the enemies for her team to have a chance to regroup. One of the most common outcomes I face as Rey when in such situations, is the enemy team realising I'm a pesky Rey who doesn't die, but as a Rey I can't have many situations where I can crippple* enemies without exposing myself too much, so they focus my allies and in such also bait me to go for the offensive. If I go, lots of chances to be caught in a CC move, which either means I'll be crippled, dead or thrown far away from combat. If I try a more defensive approach by dodge blocking my way to the enemies, they'll just evade me, or try to get me when they can also hit an ally of mine, so even if I block, there are chances the attack will work on my ally. Then this usually results in me rarely getting killed, but most of the time my allies come and die while I keep blocking and turtling and not being able to do much about it. As any other saber I can try to control the field from afar, and I can have a much quicker and safer response when enemies open their guards to attack an ally. Especially when teammates are bad, I can set situations where they can be useful. Rey can't do that if her max damaging reach is melee, and all her moves are risky, except the self buffing one (which does nothing against enemies).
So all in all (tl;dr), Rey is just as viable as any other Hero or Villain in HvV, but compared to all other sabers (comparing to blasters is harder) she is mediocre at best. Her lack of CC immunity and Damage Reduction reduce a lot her Tanking abilities despite one of the best staminas in the game. Her small DPS and lack of 3 hit chains reduce a lot her Hit and Run tactics. Her lack of ranged damaging moves reduce a lot her ability to put Pressure on the enemy or to Defend her allies. Her lack of a meaningful Debuff or AoE ability reduce a lot her Field Controller (zoner) prowess. She's still a great Survivor because of her stamina and amazing dodge, which allow her to turtle like there's no tomorrow, but even in that Obi is better because he has a better stamina overall, a much higher HP regen, and a 80% DR stance which also doubles as a powerful push ability, to ease his escape (let's not forget a rush that despite not giving CC immunity, does give immunity to saber attacks and blaster fire from the front). The fact she can't do much to stop the Stomping, which is usually what unfair situations tend to lead the game into, makes her a worse pick then any other saber when it comes to evening the odds. In a fairer situation, she not only is much better, but she can really excel on it. Rey needs enemies not to focus their attention on her so she can be useful, and when you have allies who can engage enemies and force them to pay attention to them, then Rey comes in and either kills them, or leaves them prone to be killed by her allies. Rey is the ultimate teamplayer in HvV. In any specific role there will be a better pick for the job, but no one is proficient in as many (and different) roles as Rey.
*A way to bypass the pesky and badly designed Censor Bot, who censors this word here (which is used in a way that doesn't hurts anyone's feelings or incites rage against other people), but doesn't censor it's other form: 'crippled'. Go figure..
