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JohnnySteelAlph's avatar
JohnnySteelAlph
8 years ago

Chaze Breaks Tactical Part of Game - Don't Nerf, but Let's Learn some Lessons

Had to post this as I was inspired today by the fact that ... even winning vs. Chaze now is getting really monotonous. It's been fun killing Chaze, but the flow of the battle is awful and even beatin...
Omeah's avatar
Omeah
8 years ago
Chaze have way too many stuff. Ofc they can be beaten, just like everyone else, but show me ANY other 2 characters that have that much utility. A nerf is needed to tone them down, while still keeping them a top tier duo

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Breaks Tactical Part of Game - Don't Nerf, but Let's Learn some Lessons","id":"message:3541528","revisionNum":1,"repliesCount":209,"author":{"__ref":"User:user:161400"},"depth":0,"hasGivenKudo":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:swgoh-general-discussion-en"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:3541528"},"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:3541528"},"body@stripHtml({\"truncateLength\":200})":"Had to post this as I was inspired today by the fact that ... even winning vs. Chaze now is getting really monotonous. It's been fun killing Chaze, but the flow of the battle is awful and even beatin...","body@stringLength":"3178","rawBody":"Had to post this as I was inspired today by the fact that ... even winning vs. Chaze now is getting really monotonous. It's been fun killing Chaze, but the flow of the battle is awful and even beating them now brings no joy. Don't get me wrong, I like all the turns in battles today as compared to the Poe days, but the constant taunts pulling focus fire, the foresight spam from GK, the heal / equalize from Chirrut bringing near dead characters to near full health requiring more attacks to kill, the constant counter attacks...it's just a bad fight.

The lesson part though comes in that they break the tactical game - that's the element of the game where have to choose characters to matchup properly with the opponent. I'll give a specific example comparing Troopers and using a good, but not the best, team to face in arena: Chaze + Wiggs + R2.

Now, facing this team you want the following:

1. Pre-taunt for the triple shot
2. Passive mid-round taunter to take the Chirrut bombs after Wiggs triple and the heavy single shot from Biggs and Wedge
3. Healer for the damage dealt out
4. Heavy damage attacker to actually kill stuff
5. An AOE enemy buff remover for the R2 smoke screen so you aren't pinned on Baze
6. Cleanse / ten up to remove the burn / stun and / or prevent burn / stun from R2

These are the tactical considerations you need to evaluate when putting a team together.

Now let's look at Troopers as an example and compare them to Chaze and what they do:

Snowtrooper: Satisfies (4) above
Shoretrooper: Satisfies (1) and (3) above ... and partially solves (2) with Stormtrooper
Stormtrooper: Along with Shore, kinda satisfied (2) above in that between the 2 you can have good mid-round taunt capability for damage cover
Deathtrooper: Satisfies (5) above as well as (4) with the deathmark
Veers: Satisfies (4) above with the assist call and contingently he handles (3) if you kill something

So between 5 characters, no one does 6, only generally each one has a role, maybe 2 or so at most - Shore is pretty balanced in that he has multiple skills, but is slow and also low damage, so he's a tactical tool with tradeoffs.

Now let's look at 1-6 above through the Chaze lens:

Baze: Handles (1) (2) and (5)
Chirrut: Handles (3) (4) and (6)

That's as clear an example as I can make on why a Chaze abomination shouldn't be introduced in to the game again. They break the actual \"game\" of GoH in that you don't have to think about constructing a team in any specific manner relative to your opponent. They actually outskill all 5 recently revamped troopers. Troopers should be a team they look to create more of - different skills, working together, needs tactical decisions to be made in order to matchup to the opponent's strength and weaknesses.

Again to reiterate, don't nerf Chaze - they are not unbeatable - but let's work on making this a game again that involves tradeoffs when selecting teams and heroes relative to your opponent. ","kudosSumWeight":1,"postTime":"2017-05-17T05:17:31.000-07:00","images":{"__typename":"AssociatedImageConnection","edges":[],"totalCount":0,"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"tags":{"__typename":"TagConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"timeToRead":3,"currentRevision":{"__ref":"Revision:revision:3541528_1"},"latestVersion":null,"metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":10265},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","canonicalUrl":null,"seoTitle":null,"seoDescription":null,"isEscalated":null,"placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"messagePolicies":{"__typename":"MessagePolicies","canModerateSpamMessage":{"__typename":"PolicyResult","failureReason":{"__typename":"FailureReason","message":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","key":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","args":[]}}},"archivalData":null,"customFields":[],"body":"Had to post this as I was inspired today by the fact that ... even winning vs. Chaze now is getting really monotonous. It's been fun killing Chaze, but the flow of the battle is awful and even beating them now brings no joy. Don't get me wrong, I like all the turns in battles today as compared to the Poe days, but the constant taunts pulling focus fire, the foresight spam from GK, the heal / equalize from Chirrut bringing near dead characters to near full health requiring more attacks to kill, the constant counter attacks...it's just a bad fight.

The lesson part though comes in that they break the tactical game - that's the element of the game where have to choose characters to matchup properly with the opponent. I'll give a specific example comparing Troopers and using a good, but not the best, team to face in arena: Chaze + Wiggs + R2.

Now, facing this team you want the following:

1. Pre-taunt for the triple shot
2. Passive mid-round taunter to take the Chirrut bombs after Wiggs triple and the heavy single shot from Biggs and Wedge
3. Healer for the damage dealt out
4. Heavy damage attacker to actually kill stuff
5. An AOE enemy buff remover for the R2 smoke screen so you aren't pinned on Baze
6. Cleanse / ten up to remove the burn / stun and / or prevent burn / stun from R2

These are the tactical considerations you need to evaluate when putting a team together.

Now let's look at Troopers as an example and compare them to Chaze and what they do:

Snowtrooper: Satisfies (4) above
Shoretrooper: Satisfies (1) and (3) above ... and partially solves (2) with Stormtrooper
Stormtrooper: Along with Shore, kinda satisfied (2) above in that between the 2 you can have good mid-round taunt capability for damage cover
Deathtrooper: Satisfies (5) above as well as (4) with the deathmark
Veers: Satisfies (4) above with the assist call and contingently he handles (3) if you kill something

So between 5 characters, no one does 6, only generally each one has a role, maybe 2 or so at most - Shore is pretty balanced in that he has multiple skills, but is slow and also low damage, so he's a tactical tool with tradeoffs.

Now let's look at 1-6 above through the Chaze lens:

Baze: Handles (1) (2) and (5)
Chirrut: Handles (3) (4) and (6)

That's as clear an example as I can make on why a Chaze abomination shouldn't be introduced in to the game again. They break the actual \"game\" of GoH in that you don't have to think about constructing a team in any specific manner relative to your opponent. They actually outskill all 5 recently revamped troopers. Troopers should be a team they look to create more of - different skills, working together, needs tactical decisions to be made in order to matchup to the opponent's strength and weaknesses.

Again to reiterate, don't nerf Chaze - they are not unbeatable - but let's work on making this a game again that involves tradeoffs when selecting teams and heroes relative to your opponent."},"Conversation:conversation:3541528":{"__typename":"Conversation","id":"conversation:3541528","solved":false,"topic":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:3541528"},"lastPostingActivityTime":"2017-05-24T13:01:43.000-07:00","lastPostTime":"2017-05-24T13:01:43.000-07:00","unreadReplyCount":209,"isSubscribed":false},"ModerationData:moderation_data:3541528":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:3541528","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"Revision:revision:3541528_1":{"__typename":"Revision","id":"revision:3541528_1","lastEditTime":"2017-05-17T05:17:31.000-07:00"},"ForumReplyMessage:message:3541548":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","id":"message:3541548","conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:3541528"},"author":{"__ref":"User:user:125459"},"revisionNum":1,"uid":3541548,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:swgoh-general-discussion-en"},"subject":"Re: Chaze Breaks Tactical Part of Game - Don't Nerf, but Let's Learn some Lessons","readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:3541548"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:3541528"},"body":"Chaze have way too many stuff. Ofc they can be beaten, just like everyone else, but show me ANY other 2 characters that have that much utility. A nerf is needed to tone them down, while still keeping them a top tier duo","body@stringLength":"219","rawBody":"Chaze have way too many stuff. Ofc they can be beaten, just like everyone else, but show me ANY other 2 characters that have that much utility. A nerf is needed to tone them down, while still keeping them a top tier duo","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2017-05-17T07:38:02.000-07:00","images":{"__typename":"AssociatedImageConnection","edges":[],"totalCount":0,"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"timeToRead":1,"currentRevision":{"__ref":"Revision:revision:3541548_1"},"latestVersion":null,"metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":0},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","isEscalated":null,"placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"messagePolicies":{"__typename":"MessagePolicies","canModerateSpamMessage":{"__typename":"PolicyResult","failureReason":{"__typename":"FailureReason","message":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","key":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","args":[]}}},"customFields":[],"replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"CachedAsset:theme:customTheme1-1745485180857":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"theme:customTheme1-1745485180857","value":{"id":"customTheme1","animation":{"fast":"150ms","normal":"250ms","slow":"500ms","slowest":"750ms","function":"cubic-bezier(0.07, 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