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Oblerone's avatar
9 years ago

Drop rates, loss runs and transparency

None of what follows is new, but I hope it encourages EA to have a think about how they handle artificially stochastic functions in the game, and gives some of you a bit more info about how to gain d...

About SWGOH General Discussion

Discuss and share your feedback on Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes with fellow players.80,108 PostsLatest Activity: 2 hours ago
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rates, loss runs and transparency","id":"message:4527998","revisionNum":1,"repliesCount":25,"author":{"__ref":"User:user:20058"},"depth":0,"hasGivenKudo":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:swgoh-general-discussion-en"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:4527998"},"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:4527998"},"body@stripHtml({\"truncateLength\":200})":"None of what follows is new, but I hope it encourages EA to have a think about how they handle artificially stochastic functions in the game, and gives some of you a bit more info about how to gain d...","body@stringLength":"3347","rawBody":"None of what follows is new, but I hope it encourages EA to have a think about how they handle artificially stochastic functions in the game, and gives some of you a bit more info about how to gain dropped gear strategically.

People spend money on this game. It's like a strategy game with gambling attached -- eg. shard and gear drop battles. Unlike reputable gambling sites however SWGOH does not tell you the probability of a win, or even make the drops Provably fair. An example of a provably fair online gambling site which provides clear odds and the house edge is the well known cryptocoin casino Just Dice

So, because of this lack of transparency I see lots of posts about unfair drop rates. This is probably partly due to an unknown drop rate, cognitive bias and unfamiliarity with expected win and loss runs in a set of geometrically distributed trials. It takes a great many trials to estimate a drop rate with reasonable accuracy, and even at higher drop rates you can hit quite long runs of losses - for example for a drop rate of 0.2 and in a series of a hundred wins you can expect your longest run of losses (before a win) to be between 14 and 37 (some easy papers on run length distributions here and here).

Those loss runs are pretty long and could be disheartening -- and experienced by a large number of players, given the amount of gear with drop rates of 0.2.

I think people either assume that the drop rates are much worse than they are, or believe that EA are playing silly buggers and varying the drop rates (eg giving a large number of successes just before you run out of crystals, and then making up for it with a large number of losses just after you purchase them). These beliefs are all probably due to cognitive bias and lack of transparency, but EA leave themselves open to accusations of cheating by not using any of available methods of proving fairness and by not providing accurate drop rates.

As my guild (BaseDeltaZero rocks wooo!) knows I have a new baby and my brain is reeling. I don't have time or brain power to do the usual sorts of non-swgoh analysis I did pre-baby at my blog, but I have just about enough IQ left to post an analysis of my drop rates, loss runs and win runs for the past fortnight. I also checked that in each case distribution of number of losses before a win fit the expected geometric distribution well enough to not reject that assumption as the null, and in each case they did. From this you could just as easily believe that EA is running a fair game, or they're being very subtle about cheating us. Make no mistake - our disbelief is their fault.

I'll post my actual results in other posts - this one is too long if I include them.

","kudosSumWeight":1,"postTime":"2017-01-24T19:55:30.000-08:00","images":{"__typename":"AssociatedImageConnection","edges":[],"totalCount":0,"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"tags":{"__typename":"TagConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"timeToRead":2,"currentRevision":{"__ref":"Revision:revision:4527998_1"},"latestVersion":null,"metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":2604},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","canonicalUrl":null,"seoTitle":null,"seoDescription":null,"isEscalated":null,"placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"messagePolicies":{"__typename":"MessagePolicies","canModerateSpamMessage":{"__typename":"PolicyResult","failureReason":{"__typename":"FailureReason","message":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","key":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","args":[]}}},"archivalData":null,"customFields":[],"body":"None of what follows is new, but I hope it encourages EA to have a think about how they handle artificially stochastic functions in the game, and gives some of you a bit more info about how to gain dropped gear strategically.

People spend money on this game. It's like a strategy game with gambling attached -- eg. shard and gear drop battles. Unlike reputable gambling sites however SWGOH does not tell you the probability of a win, or even make the drops Provably fair. An example of a provably fair online gambling site which provides clear odds and the house edge is the well known cryptocoin casino Just Dice

So, because of this lack of transparency I see lots of posts about unfair drop rates. This is probably partly due to an unknown drop rate, cognitive bias and unfamiliarity with expected win and loss runs in a set of geometrically distributed trials. It takes a great many trials to estimate a drop rate with reasonable accuracy, and even at higher drop rates you can hit quite long runs of losses - for example for a drop rate of 0.2 and in a series of a hundred wins you can expect your longest run of losses (before a win) to be between 14 and 37 (some easy papers on run length distributions here and here).

Those loss runs are pretty long and could be disheartening -- and experienced by a large number of players, given the amount of gear with drop rates of 0.2.

I think people either assume that the drop rates are much worse than they are, or believe that EA are playing silly buggers and varying the drop rates (eg giving a large number of successes just before you run out of crystals, and then making up for it with a large number of losses just after you purchase them). These beliefs are all probably due to cognitive bias and lack of transparency, but EA leave themselves open to accusations of cheating by not using any of available methods of proving fairness and by not providing accurate drop rates.

As my guild (BaseDeltaZero rocks wooo!) knows I have a new baby and my brain is reeling. I don't have time or brain power to do the usual sorts of non-swgoh analysis I did pre-baby at my blog, but I have just about enough IQ left to post an analysis of my drop rates, loss runs and win runs for the past fortnight. I also checked that in each case distribution of number of losses before a win fit the expected geometric distribution well enough to not reject that assumption as the null, and in each case they did. From this you could just as easily believe that EA is running a fair game, or they're being very subtle about cheating us. Make no mistake - our disbelief is their fault.

I'll post my actual results in other posts - this one is too long if I include them.

"},"Conversation:conversation:4527998":{"__typename":"Conversation","id":"conversation:4527998","solved":false,"topic":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:4527998"},"lastPostingActivityTime":"2017-07-18T15:00:56.000-07:00","lastPostTime":"2017-07-18T15:00:56.000-07:00","unreadReplyCount":25,"isSubscribed":false},"ModerationData:moderation_data:4527998":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:4527998","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"Revision:revision:4527998_1":{"__typename":"Revision","id":"revision:4527998_1","lastEditTime":"2017-01-24T19:55:30.000-08:00"},"ForumReplyMessage:message:4528003":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","id":"message:4528003","conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:4527998"},"author":{"__ref":"User:user:20058"},"revisionNum":1,"uid":4528003,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:swgoh-general-discussion-en"},"subject":"Re: Drop rates, loss runs and transparency","readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:4528003"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:4527998"},"body":"... and the number of wins in a row.


Maximum recorded win runs and 95% confidence interval
Note: Wins runs are the total number of wins in a row before a loss occurs.

Lower and upper bound for the maximum expected run are generated using a Monte Carlo simulation and the estimated binomial probability (yes, yes there's an analytical way to do it but this is one line of code and quite reliable).

==============================================================================================================================================
variable Battle Number of win runs Lower bound Maximum recorded win run length Upper bound
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Lando Calrissian shard Cantina Battle 1E 26 2 3 7
2 Lando Calrissian shard Cantina Battle 5F 5 0 3 7
3 Ability material MkI Cantina Battle 1E 37 1 1 3
4 Ability material MkI Cantina Battle 4B 87 2 4 5
5 Ability material MkI Cantina Battle 4D 152 3 3 7
6 Ability material MkI Cantina Battle 5F 7 0 2 4
7 Ability material MkII Cantina Battle 1E 40 0 1 2
8 Ability material MkII Cantina Battle 4B 86 2 2 5
9 Ability material MkII Cantina Battle 4D 182 2 4 4
10 Ability material MkII Cantina Battle 5F 9 0 1 2
11 Ability material MkIII Cantina Battle 1E 39 0 1 2
12 Ability material MkIII Cantina Battle 4B 99 1 3 3
13 Ability material MkIII Cantina Battle 4D 204 1 1 2
14 Ability material MkIII Cantina Battle 5F 9 0 1 2
15 Sim ticket Cantina Battle 1E 38 1 1 3
16 Sim ticket Cantina Battle 4B 98 1 1 3
17 Sim ticket Cantina Battle 4D 194 1 1 3
18 Sim ticket Cantina Battle 5F 9 0 1 2
19 Sim ticket Dark side 1B Hard 14 0 1 4
20 Sim ticket Dark side 3E Hard 10 0 1 3
21 Sim ticket Dark side 4A normal 19 0 2 3
22 Sim ticket Dark side 4C Hard 20 0 1 2
23 Sim ticket Dark side 7E normal 77 1 1 3
24 Sim ticket Dark side 8B normal 79 1 1 2
25 Sim ticket Dark side 8C normal 67 1 2 3
26 Sim ticket Light side 3A Hard 8 0 0 2
27 Sim ticket Light side 4J normal 12 0 1 3
28 Sim ticket Light side 7D normal 184 1 2 3
29 Sim ticket Light side 8G normal 92 1 1 3
30 TIE Fighter pilot shard Cantina Battle 4B 75 2 3 6
31 Genosian Spy shard Cantina Battle 4D 130 3 6 9
32 Mk5 BlasTech Weapon Mod Prototype Light side 4J normal 6 1 5 9
33 Mk1 Arakyd Droid Caller Light side 4J normal 7 1 2 8
34 Mk3 Czerka Stun Cuffs Salvage Dark side 8C normal 57 1 3 5
35 Mk3 Czerka Stun Cuffs Salvage Light side 7D normal 160 2 4 5
36 Mk3 Czerka Stun Cuffs Salvage Light side 8G normal 85 1 2 4
37 Mk4 Nubian Security Scanner Protype Salvage Light side 7D normal 132 3 4 8
38 Mk1 Sorosuub Keypad Light side 7D normal 96 5 6 12
39 Mk8 BlasTech Weapon Mod Prototype Salvage Light side 5D Hard 7 0 1 4
40 Mk2 Arakyd Droid Caller Dark side 8C normal 36 3 7 10
41 Mk4 BioTech Implant Prototype Dark side 4C Hard 11 1 2 8
42 Mk3 BlasTech Weapon Mod Light side 5D Hard 5 0 2 7
43 Mk7 BlasTech Weapon Mod Prototype Salvage Dark side 4C Hard 11 1 3 8
44 Mk7 BlasTech Weapon Mod Prototype Salvage Light side 8G normal 58 3 8 8
45 Mk1 Merr-Sonn Shield Generator Light side 8G normal 57 3 5 8
46 Mk1 Zaltin Bacta Gel Prototype Salvage Dark side 4A normal 16 1 3 4
47 Mk3 BioTech Implant Dark side 4A normal 8 2 2 13
48 Mk5 A/KT Stun Gun Prototype Salvage Dark side 7E normal 66 1 3 4
49 Mk5 A/KT Stun Gun Prototype Salvage Dark side 8B normal 67 1 3 4
50 Mk3 Chiewab Hypo Syringe Prototype Salvage Dark side 7E normal 55 2 5 7
51 Mk2 SoroSuub Keypad Prototype Dark side 7E normal 40 3 5 10
52 Mk7 BAW Armor Mod Prototype Salvage Dark side 4C Hard 9 1 5 10
53 Mk7 BAW Armor Mod Prototype Salvage Dark side 8B normal 57 2 3 6
54 Mk4 Loronar Power Cell Prototype Dark side 8B normal 49 3 4 8
55 Mk1 Carbanti Sensor Array Prototype Dark side 8C normal 52 2 2 6
56 Mk4 BAW Armor Mod Salvage Dark side 3E Hard 11 0 1 2
57 Mk4 BAW Armor Mod Salvage Light side 3A Hard 6 0 1 5
58 Mk1 BlasTech Weapon Mod Light side 3A Hard 3 0 4 11
59 Mk2 TaggeCo Holo Lens Dark side 1B Hard 11 1 2 6
60 Mk2 TaggeCo Holo Lens Dark side 3E Hard 5 1 3 9
61 Mk2 TaggeCo Holo Lens Light side 3A Hard 3 0 3 11
62 Ahsoka Tano shard Dark side 4C Hard 11 1 3 8
63 Ahsoka Tano shard Light side 5D Hard 8 0 1 3
64 Mk5 Loronar Power Cell Salvage Light side 5D Hard 5 0 2 7
65 Mk3 Neuro-Saav Electrobinoculars Light side 5D Hard 6 0 2 5
66 Clone sergeant phase 1 shard Dark side 1B Hard 12 1 4 5
67 Clone sergeant phase 1 shard Dark side 3E Hard 5 1 3 9
68 Mk3 Loronar Power Cell Dark side 1B Hard 7 1 4 11
69 Mk2 BlasTech Weapon Mod Dark side 1B Hard 12 1 4 5
70 Mk5 TaggeCo Holo Lens Prototype Salvage Dark side 3E Hard 11 0 1 2
71 Mk1 TaggeCo Holo Lens Dark side 4C Hard 16 1 2 4
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




","body@stringLength":"11576","rawBody":"... and the number of wins in a row.


Maximum recorded win runs and 95% confidence interval
Note: Wins runs are the total number of wins in a row before a loss occurs.

Lower and upper bound for the maximum expected run are generated using a Monte Carlo simulation and the estimated binomial probability (yes, yes there's an analytical way to do it but this is one line of code and quite reliable).

==============================================================================================================================================
variable Battle Number of win runs Lower bound Maximum recorded win run length Upper bound
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Lando Calrissian shard Cantina Battle 1E 26 2 3 7
2 Lando Calrissian shard Cantina Battle 5F 5 0 3 7
3 Ability material MkI Cantina Battle 1E 37 1 1 3
4 Ability material MkI Cantina Battle 4B 87 2 4 5
5 Ability material MkI Cantina Battle 4D 152 3 3 7
6 Ability material MkI Cantina Battle 5F 7 0 2 4
7 Ability material MkII Cantina Battle 1E 40 0 1 2
8 Ability material MkII Cantina Battle 4B 86 2 2 5
9 Ability material MkII Cantina Battle 4D 182 2 4 4
10 Ability material MkII Cantina Battle 5F 9 0 1 2
11 Ability material MkIII Cantina Battle 1E 39 0 1 2
12 Ability material MkIII Cantina Battle 4B 99 1 3 3
13 Ability material MkIII Cantina Battle 4D 204 1 1 2
14 Ability material MkIII Cantina Battle 5F 9 0 1 2
15 Sim ticket Cantina Battle 1E 38 1 1 3
16 Sim ticket Cantina Battle 4B 98 1 1 3
17 Sim ticket Cantina Battle 4D 194 1 1 3
18 Sim ticket Cantina Battle 5F 9 0 1 2
19 Sim ticket Dark side 1B Hard 14 0 1 4
20 Sim ticket Dark side 3E Hard 10 0 1 3
21 Sim ticket Dark side 4A normal 19 0 2 3
22 Sim ticket Dark side 4C Hard 20 0 1 2
23 Sim ticket Dark side 7E normal 77 1 1 3
24 Sim ticket Dark side 8B normal 79 1 1 2
25 Sim ticket Dark side 8C normal 67 1 2 3
26 Sim ticket Light side 3A Hard 8 0 0 2
27 Sim ticket Light side 4J normal 12 0 1 3
28 Sim ticket Light side 7D normal 184 1 2 3
29 Sim ticket Light side 8G normal 92 1 1 3
30 TIE Fighter pilot shard Cantina Battle 4B 75 2 3 6
31 Genosian Spy shard Cantina Battle 4D 130 3 6 9
32 Mk5 BlasTech Weapon Mod Prototype Light side 4J normal 6 1 5 9
33 Mk1 Arakyd Droid Caller Light side 4J normal 7 1 2 8
34 Mk3 Czerka Stun Cuffs Salvage Dark side 8C normal 57 1 3 5
35 Mk3 Czerka Stun Cuffs Salvage Light side 7D normal 160 2 4 5
36 Mk3 Czerka Stun Cuffs Salvage Light side 8G normal 85 1 2 4
37 Mk4 Nubian Security Scanner Protype Salvage Light side 7D normal 132 3 4 8
38 Mk1 Sorosuub Keypad Light side 7D normal 96 5 6 12
39 Mk8 BlasTech Weapon Mod Prototype Salvage Light side 5D Hard 7 0 1 4
40 Mk2 Arakyd Droid Caller Dark side 8C normal 36 3 7 10
41 Mk4 BioTech Implant Prototype Dark side 4C Hard 11 1 2 8
42 Mk3 BlasTech Weapon Mod Light side 5D Hard 5 0 2 7
43 Mk7 BlasTech Weapon Mod Prototype Salvage Dark side 4C Hard 11 1 3 8
44 Mk7 BlasTech Weapon Mod Prototype Salvage Light side 8G normal 58 3 8 8
45 Mk1 Merr-Sonn Shield Generator Light side 8G normal 57 3 5 8
46 Mk1 Zaltin Bacta Gel Prototype Salvage Dark side 4A normal 16 1 3 4
47 Mk3 BioTech Implant Dark side 4A normal 8 2 2 13
48 Mk5 A/KT Stun Gun Prototype Salvage Dark side 7E normal 66 1 3 4
49 Mk5 A/KT Stun Gun Prototype Salvage Dark side 8B normal 67 1 3 4
50 Mk3 Chiewab Hypo Syringe Prototype Salvage Dark side 7E normal 55 2 5 7
51 Mk2 SoroSuub Keypad Prototype Dark side 7E normal 40 3 5 10
52 Mk7 BAW Armor Mod Prototype Salvage Dark side 4C Hard 9 1 5 10
53 Mk7 BAW Armor Mod Prototype Salvage Dark side 8B normal 57 2 3 6
54 Mk4 Loronar Power Cell Prototype Dark side 8B normal 49 3 4 8
55 Mk1 Carbanti Sensor Array Prototype Dark side 8C normal 52 2 2 6
56 Mk4 BAW Armor Mod Salvage Dark side 3E Hard 11 0 1 2
57 Mk4 BAW Armor Mod Salvage Light side 3A Hard 6 0 1 5
58 Mk1 BlasTech Weapon Mod Light side 3A Hard 3 0 4 11
59 Mk2 TaggeCo Holo Lens Dark side 1B Hard 11 1 2 6
60 Mk2 TaggeCo Holo Lens Dark side 3E Hard 5 1 3 9
61 Mk2 TaggeCo Holo Lens Light side 3A Hard 3 0 3 11
62 Ahsoka Tano shard Dark side 4C Hard 11 1 3 8
63 Ahsoka Tano shard Light side 5D Hard 8 0 1 3
64 Mk5 Loronar Power Cell Salvage Light side 5D Hard 5 0 2 7
65 Mk3 Neuro-Saav Electrobinoculars Light side 5D Hard 6 0 2 5
66 Clone sergeant phase 1 shard Dark side 1B Hard 12 1 4 5
67 Clone sergeant phase 1 shard Dark side 3E Hard 5 1 3 9
68 Mk3 Loronar Power Cell Dark side 1B Hard 7 1 4 11
69 Mk2 BlasTech Weapon Mod Dark side 1B Hard 12 1 4 5
70 Mk5 TaggeCo Holo Lens Prototype Salvage Dark side 3E Hard 11 0 1 2
71 Mk1 TaggeCo Holo Lens Dark side 4C Hard 16 1 2 4
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




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