[Inquiry] Sith Raid Boss tenacity observation

"scuba;c-1500529" wrote:

"First_but_66_Order;c-1500520" wrote:

"scuba;c-1500430" wrote:

"First_but_66_Order;c-1500417" wrote:

"scuba;c-1500405" wrote:

"First_but_66_Order;c-1499905" wrote:

"scuba;c-1499800" wrote:
This is why all debuffs except stager, dm, expose and there is another I can't think of, should be applied before damage is done. There is no consistency in how CG has set it up even with same debuffs (EP shock applied before damage dooku shock applied after damage)

Alternatively, all bonus % based unique buffs should be applied at the end of the turn (after damage and debuff)

@CG_Carrie This issue is a a basic game phylosophy question, please respond and tell us, what the offical phylosophy behind the sequence of events during a turn is. (and why are Raid bosses are exceptions)
This issue questions the very base mechanics in the game, how a "turn" should be work.

Raid bosses are not the exception.
This game uses order of operations.
If Thrawn fractures a taunting zeta ob than ob will retain because of the order of operations and ob responding to the dispel because it happens before the fracture debuff is applied.

We also saw this with daze when it was first given to Maul. Because daze was applied after damage vs Rex teams if the AoE crit they would still gain TM. It was fixed by moving daze before damage.

You can see the same thing with Dooku vs Biggs. If dooku crits with he's special and lands shock Biggs will gain 100% tm. If ep hits Biggs with basic and lands shock Biggs will not gain 100% tm.
With the exception of jyn all non lead tmr happens after damage. This is why she always leaves 5%tm vs rancor.

I don't like that it is not consistent but raid bosses are not an exception you just mostly see it with in the sith raid because it is affecting a larger group of abilities.

If you read the part about FOTIE (and his unique as well), I explain what is the problem with this order of events chain.
In short, the text doesnt imply the 'when' Factor, and normally in that case the effect takes place at the end of the current ongoing turn. It is kinda 'back-stair' with the wording, and in the case of the Raid bosses CG doesnt follow the existing practice applied in other cases.

I read it. I am just telling you abilities triggering in the middle is not unique to raid bosses.

The reason it doesn't happen like you suggest for fotp is because the order of operations. Fotp kit checks at the start (before damage) if he has advantage not after damage.

1. Fotp uses basic
2. Checks if he has advantage
3. If he does 100% chance to perform bonus if not 50% chance
4. Fotp does damage
5. If enemy falls below 50% health gains advantage from unique
6. Performs bonus move.

So again the problem/difference is the order of operations and CG inconsistenting with them.

Ability wording has never been reliable because almost every ability that does damage states "deal damage than do x, y, z etc" yet they are all over the place as to if x, y, z happens before or after damage.

Perhaps FOTIEP is not the best example.
A better example should be counter attacks.
CAs never interrupt a turn, they always activates at the end of the turn. So does any unique and other abilities which are not defined when they happen.
I am a lawyer and I know what legal practice is.
If there is an example of a 'law' implementation, that is considered to be the standard in any further cases.
This is the problem here, that they dont follow the practice they created for the cases when the 'when' factor is undefined.

But the Raid boss ability specifically states when it will happen. It states it will happen when they take damage. That is what is happening here order of operations.

Take Maul lead ability for example if you fracture a stealthed sith they will be fractured with Advantage. That is not a character special ability but is a leader ability trigger when it says it will because the order of operations of fracture.
Let look at another unique ability.
Barris zeta. If dooku uses his special and shocks an ally of bariss if the damage was a crit that ally will heal for 20% health because the crit damage happened before the shock.

It is all about the order of operations, which is never properly described in the character abilities or every ability but b2 would deal damage before anything else.

Again it is not some new raid boss exception it has always been there just not as apparent.

Counter attacks the way they decided to set that up is by use of a "que"

This all goes back to the fix is have abilities apply debuffs (couple exceptions) before damage is done.

You are right, I might have overlooked some instances.
Then it raises the question, whether the descrioption wording (generally) is explicit enough the way it is currently is.
(My opinion is that the descrioption texts could use a rework.)

But, I still maintain that the way the stacking tenacity wroks is an unnecesary barrier.
Thanks for the constructive participation.