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mesa176750
5 years ago

Jedi Master Luke Ultimate Charge Method

TL:DR - Change the way JML's ultimate charges. Several people don't even bother giving JML his ultimate ability because it inflates your roster and can't even be used in most instances. I think tha...
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tvsfrink
5 years ago
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"Kyno;c-2209834" wrote:
In arena, sure, you are not using his lead.


I am, shrug.

About SWGOH General Discussion

Discuss and share your feedback on Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes with fellow players.80,184 PostsLatest Activity: 42 minutes ago
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Master Luke Ultimate Charge Method","id":"message:4594595","revisionNum":1,"repliesCount":10,"author":{"__ref":"User:user:18834"},"depth":0,"hasGivenKudo":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:swgoh-general-discussion-en"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:4594595"},"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:4594595"},"body@stripHtml({\"truncateLength\":200})":"TL:DR - Change the way JML's ultimate charges. Several people don't even bother giving JML his ultimate ability because it inflates your roster and can't even be used in most instances. I think tha...","body@stringLength":"8809","rawBody":"TL:DR - Change the way JML's ultimate charges. Several people don't even bother giving JML his ultimate ability because it inflates your roster and can't even be used in most instances.

I think that JML has a serious disadvantage compared to the other GLs on several fronts, but I can't deny his utility or strength when paired with a full jedi team, which gives him an advantage over other GLs when paired with their respective teams. That being said, I feel that JML has been shafted on how his ultimate ability charges.

Some of the issues are how reliant JML's ultimate is tied to his leadership, which several people have already argued is the weakest of the GLs. JML's ultimate only charges by 8% when an ally gains jedi lessons or refreshes an instance of jedi lessons. Unfortunately, the most reliable way to give jedi lessons is by using the JML lead, where you are granted the new ability (which in of itself is powerful when used properly) that calls an ally to assist and deals additional damage based on JML's protection, as well as several other bonuses. Most likely both will be jedi, which if it's the case both the user and the target ally gain/refresh jedi lessons. Ignoring JML's special ability, it would take using this leader specific ability at least 7 times, which in theory would charge pretty fast. However, there are some complications to charging this ultimate. These are: buff immunity or shock that can prevent the buff from being spread, calling JML to assist, since he cannot gain jedi lessons, and finally, the AI does not prioritize the special ability over the character's own special abilities. You do have the benefit of JML's special ability that grants jedi lessons to 1 ally, but that has a 4 turn cooldown so isn't very reliable, and it can also be prevented by buff immunity/shock.

The problem of JML's ultimate is further exacerbated when JML is not the leader. Many times people prefer to use JKR lead for the tenacity up at the start of the match, or Bastila Shan for the insane protection pool at the start of the match. There might be other reasons you prefer these leaders, but the problem I'm trying to clarify is that it's practically impossible to charge JML's ultimate when he's not the leader, which is not a problem that any other GL suffers. Since the only way for an ally to gain jedi lessos is from JML's special ability that has a 4 turn cool down, it'll take him 50 turns to gain his ultimate, possibly more if the target jedi has buff immunity or shock.

Now that the problem has been explained on how JML's ultimate charges, let's compare the other GLs.

GL Rey: Charges ultimate passively, 6% at the start of every character's turn. After a total of 17 turns made by any character, Rey can use her ultimate.

GL SLKR: Charges 2% via non-crit damage, increased to 5% with critical hits. His ultimate also has 3 stages when the ultimate can be activated, the lowest threshold is at 60%. To use the ultimate at the lowest threshold, you need 30 instances of non critical damage or 12 instances of critical damage. Considering how easy it is to spread advantage, AOEs, assists, counter attacks, and SLKR's basic deals damage 2-3 times, it's fair to say that it's pretty quick to charge SLKRs ultimate, but results will vary depending on dodges or damage immunity.

GL SEE: Charges 2 different ways, 1 that is dependent on him being a leader, and 1 doesn't depend on him being the leader. Whether he is or isn't the leader, he gains 2% charge each time a deceived enemy uses an ability. Deceived is an excellent debuff that spread around like plague or extorted, so it's easy for the entire enemy team to become deceived. This means it would take the enemies using 50 ability uses while deceived for him to activate his ultimate, which is long for sure, but divided by 5 enemies that's only 10 ability uses per enemy. This also includes using abilities outside of their turn via assists (counter attacks are prohibited by deceived) Of course stuns/fears can prevent enemies from using their abilities, so that causes different problems. Even so, SEE can reliably charge his ultimate while not a leader. As for when he is the leader, he simply increases the rate he can charge his ultimate drastically, because now when linked enemies use abilities, he gains an additional 8% charge. So if they are deceived and linked, he'll gain 10% ultimate charge. Now it would take linked+deceived enemies (of which there can only be 2 of on the enemy field at once) 10 abilities to charge SEE's ultimate, or 5 each. This is then coupled with the regular deceived enemies taking turns and charging SEE's ultimate by 2% each. Theoretically it would take roughly every enemy to take ~4 abilities to charge up SEE's ultimate to max while he's the leader. All of this is combined with the fact that neither linked nor deceived can be resisted or dispelled.

So now that we see how fast the other 3 GLs can charge, knowing that SLKR and Rey can use their ultimates equally faster whether they are leaders or not, and knowing that while SEE has a disadvantage charging his ultimate when not the leader, in both instances SEE is faster than JML respectively (Comparing JML lead ultimate charge rate to SEE lead ultimate charge rate, and comparing non-JML lead ultimate charge rate to non-SEE lead ultimate charge rate)

So now that we have established that JML's method of gaining ultimate charge is ridiculously slow, so much so that people are opting to not give JML his ultimate because it'll just inflate their GP with an ability that costs roughly 2 zeta abilities in galactic power coupled with the fact that they can just save those ability mats for a GL in the future that has a better ultimate. Also comparing JML's ultimate to other GLs, it's not that amazing for the amount of time it takes to charge it up. SEE can instantly defeat 2 enemies the turn after entering his ultimate stance. SLKR can't take damage for up to 3 turns and has no cooldowns for the duration, plus he can charge up his ultimate for the next use immediately after entering his ultimate stance. Rey essentially makes her team invulnerable, then large amounts of damage equally divided by surviving enemies which is extremely deadly in 3v3 GAC. JML makes his team slightly stronger (100% mastery isn't insanely stronger guys, for an r7 attacker it gives them around 2,705 additional offense) and it reduces his cooldowns from 4 to 2 (which granted, is nice)

I don't think the actual ultimate ability needs a change. I think it's great for what it does, but I feel that the method that it charges needs to be changed so that it's actually useable. There are several ways to change this which I'll list down below:

1) Make JML's ultimate charge whenever an ally with Jedi Legacy or Jedi Lessons uses an ability. You can reduce the rate at which it charges, maybe match it with SEE's 2% when JML is not the leader and 5% when he is the leader. This means it would take allies with these buffs 50 abilities to charge it up, or 10 abilities per character if everyone has the buff. You wouldn't have to change the special ability or anything. This, coupled with mass swarm attacks and the chance that JML will be called to assist by the leader ability will help charge up his ultimate in a relatively quick fashion. Plus it will give benefits to characters like GAS and Ezra that use multiple abilities on their turn.

2) Make Jedi lessons unpreventable and undispellable. I think that this is only fair considering that deceived is also a debuff that can't be resisted or cleansed. You really screw over JML teams with buff immunity and shock already, I don't think you need to prevent a buff that in of itself doesn't increase stats that much. (at max stacks, it provides 80% mastery, which for an attacker gives ~2,164 physical offense) If you are really worried about getting too high of mastery, you could also simply change it from a buff that stacks up to 3 times to a buff with a single stack that boosts mastery by 40% or something.

3) Increase the amount of charge that JML gets whenever an ally gains the buff, so that when the allies gain that buff (which is typically pretty rare) they can get more out of it.

4) Don't change anything at all, but give JML 100% charge as well as a bonus turn if all other jedi die and he's by himself, giving himself a true \"last stand\" feel, as well as a chance to clean up the enemy attempt.

Of course, you can come up with many more alternatives, but hopefully you see why I'm arguing that the charge rate of JML's ultimate needs to be improved. Hopefully you take this into consideration.","kudosSumWeight":2,"postTime":"2020-12-22T11:48:49.000-08:00","images":{"__typename":"AssociatedImageConnection","edges":[],"totalCount":0,"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"tags":{"__typename":"TagConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"timeToRead":7,"currentRevision":{"__ref":"Revision:revision:4594595_1"},"latestVersion":null,"metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":5689},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","canonicalUrl":null,"seoTitle":null,"seoDescription":null,"isEscalated":null,"placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"messagePolicies":{"__typename":"MessagePolicies","canModerateSpamMessage":{"__typename":"PolicyResult","failureReason":{"__typename":"FailureReason","message":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","key":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","args":[]}}},"archivalData":null,"customFields":[],"body":"TL:DR - Change the way JML's ultimate charges. Several people don't even bother giving JML his ultimate ability because it inflates your roster and can't even be used in most instances.

I think that JML has a serious disadvantage compared to the other GLs on several fronts, but I can't deny his utility or strength when paired with a full jedi team, which gives him an advantage over other GLs when paired with their respective teams. That being said, I feel that JML has been shafted on how his ultimate ability charges.

Some of the issues are how reliant JML's ultimate is tied to his leadership, which several people have already argued is the weakest of the GLs. JML's ultimate only charges by 8% when an ally gains jedi lessons or refreshes an instance of jedi lessons. Unfortunately, the most reliable way to give jedi lessons is by using the JML lead, where you are granted the new ability (which in of itself is powerful when used properly) that calls an ally to assist and deals additional damage based on JML's protection, as well as several other bonuses. Most likely both will be jedi, which if it's the case both the user and the target ally gain/refresh jedi lessons. Ignoring JML's special ability, it would take using this leader specific ability at least 7 times, which in theory would charge pretty fast. However, there are some complications to charging this ultimate. These are: buff immunity or shock that can prevent the buff from being spread, calling JML to assist, since he cannot gain jedi lessons, and finally, the AI does not prioritize the special ability over the character's own special abilities. You do have the benefit of JML's special ability that grants jedi lessons to 1 ally, but that has a 4 turn cooldown so isn't very reliable, and it can also be prevented by buff immunity/shock.

The problem of JML's ultimate is further exacerbated when JML is not the leader. Many times people prefer to use JKR lead for the tenacity up at the start of the match, or Bastila Shan for the insane protection pool at the start of the match. There might be other reasons you prefer these leaders, but the problem I'm trying to clarify is that it's practically impossible to charge JML's ultimate when he's not the leader, which is not a problem that any other GL suffers. Since the only way for an ally to gain jedi lessos is from JML's special ability that has a 4 turn cool down, it'll take him 50 turns to gain his ultimate, possibly more if the target jedi has buff immunity or shock.

Now that the problem has been explained on how JML's ultimate charges, let's compare the other GLs.

GL Rey: Charges ultimate passively, 6% at the start of every character's turn. After a total of 17 turns made by any character, Rey can use her ultimate.

GL SLKR: Charges 2% via non-crit damage, increased to 5% with critical hits. His ultimate also has 3 stages when the ultimate can be activated, the lowest threshold is at 60%. To use the ultimate at the lowest threshold, you need 30 instances of non critical damage or 12 instances of critical damage. Considering how easy it is to spread advantage, AOEs, assists, counter attacks, and SLKR's basic deals damage 2-3 times, it's fair to say that it's pretty quick to charge SLKRs ultimate, but results will vary depending on dodges or damage immunity.

GL SEE: Charges 2 different ways, 1 that is dependent on him being a leader, and 1 doesn't depend on him being the leader. Whether he is or isn't the leader, he gains 2% charge each time a deceived enemy uses an ability. Deceived is an excellent debuff that spread around like plague or extorted, so it's easy for the entire enemy team to become deceived. This means it would take the enemies using 50 ability uses while deceived for him to activate his ultimate, which is long for sure, but divided by 5 enemies that's only 10 ability uses per enemy. This also includes using abilities outside of their turn via assists (counter attacks are prohibited by deceived) Of course stuns/fears can prevent enemies from using their abilities, so that causes different problems. Even so, SEE can reliably charge his ultimate while not a leader. As for when he is the leader, he simply increases the rate he can charge his ultimate drastically, because now when linked enemies use abilities, he gains an additional 8% charge. So if they are deceived and linked, he'll gain 10% ultimate charge. Now it would take linked+deceived enemies (of which there can only be 2 of on the enemy field at once) 10 abilities to charge SEE's ultimate, or 5 each. This is then coupled with the regular deceived enemies taking turns and charging SEE's ultimate by 2% each. Theoretically it would take roughly every enemy to take ~4 abilities to charge up SEE's ultimate to max while he's the leader. All of this is combined with the fact that neither linked nor deceived can be resisted or dispelled.

So now that we see how fast the other 3 GLs can charge, knowing that SLKR and Rey can use their ultimates equally faster whether they are leaders or not, and knowing that while SEE has a disadvantage charging his ultimate when not the leader, in both instances SEE is faster than JML respectively (Comparing JML lead ultimate charge rate to SEE lead ultimate charge rate, and comparing non-JML lead ultimate charge rate to non-SEE lead ultimate charge rate)

So now that we have established that JML's method of gaining ultimate charge is ridiculously slow, so much so that people are opting to not give JML his ultimate because it'll just inflate their GP with an ability that costs roughly 2 zeta abilities in galactic power coupled with the fact that they can just save those ability mats for a GL in the future that has a better ultimate. Also comparing JML's ultimate to other GLs, it's not that amazing for the amount of time it takes to charge it up. SEE can instantly defeat 2 enemies the turn after entering his ultimate stance. SLKR can't take damage for up to 3 turns and has no cooldowns for the duration, plus he can charge up his ultimate for the next use immediately after entering his ultimate stance. Rey essentially makes her team invulnerable, then large amounts of damage equally divided by surviving enemies which is extremely deadly in 3v3 GAC. JML makes his team slightly stronger (100% mastery isn't insanely stronger guys, for an r7 attacker it gives them around 2,705 additional offense) and it reduces his cooldowns from 4 to 2 (which granted, is nice)

I don't think the actual ultimate ability needs a change. I think it's great for what it does, but I feel that the method that it charges needs to be changed so that it's actually useable. There are several ways to change this which I'll list down below:

1) Make JML's ultimate charge whenever an ally with Jedi Legacy or Jedi Lessons uses an ability. You can reduce the rate at which it charges, maybe match it with SEE's 2% when JML is not the leader and 5% when he is the leader. This means it would take allies with these buffs 50 abilities to charge it up, or 10 abilities per character if everyone has the buff. You wouldn't have to change the special ability or anything. This, coupled with mass swarm attacks and the chance that JML will be called to assist by the leader ability will help charge up his ultimate in a relatively quick fashion. Plus it will give benefits to characters like GAS and Ezra that use multiple abilities on their turn.

2) Make Jedi lessons unpreventable and undispellable. I think that this is only fair considering that deceived is also a debuff that can't be resisted or cleansed. You really screw over JML teams with buff immunity and shock already, I don't think you need to prevent a buff that in of itself doesn't increase stats that much. (at max stacks, it provides 80% mastery, which for an attacker gives ~2,164 physical offense) If you are really worried about getting too high of mastery, you could also simply change it from a buff that stacks up to 3 times to a buff with a single stack that boosts mastery by 40% or something.

3) Increase the amount of charge that JML gets whenever an ally gains the buff, so that when the allies gain that buff (which is typically pretty rare) they can get more out of it.

4) Don't change anything at all, but give JML 100% charge as well as a bonus turn if all other jedi die and he's by himself, giving himself a true \"last stand\" feel, as well as a chance to clean up the enemy attempt.

Of course, you can come up with many more alternatives, but hopefully you see why I'm arguing that the charge rate of JML's ultimate needs to be improved. Hopefully you take this into consideration."},"Conversation:conversation:4594595":{"__typename":"Conversation","id":"conversation:4594595","solved":false,"topic":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:4594595"},"lastPostingActivityTime":"2020-12-24T18:44:13.000-08:00","lastPostTime":"2020-12-24T18:44:13.000-08:00","unreadReplyCount":10,"isSubscribed":false},"ModerationData:moderation_data:4594595":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:4594595","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"Revision:revision:4594595_1":{"__typename":"Revision","id":"revision:4594595_1","lastEditTime":"2020-12-22T11:48:49.000-08:00"},"ForumReplyMessage:message:4594599":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","id":"message:4594599","conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:4594595"},"author":{"__ref":"User:user:85534"},"revisionNum":1,"uid":4594599,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:swgoh-general-discussion-en"},"subject":"Re: Jedi Master Luke Ultimate Charge Method","readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:4594599"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:4594595"},"body":"
\"Kyno;c-2209834\" wrote:
In arena, sure, you are not using his lead.


I am, shrug.
","body@stringLength":"128","rawBody":"
\"Kyno;c-2209834\" wrote:
In arena, sure, you are not using his lead.


I am, shrug.
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