Daze Vs Complex abilities

"Scuttlebutt;c-2050050" wrote:
I don’t know why it does this, but this is not the only instance. You cannot target a dazed or stunned ally to assist with others like Ezra or Hera either. Maybe the “cannot assist” part makes them an invalid target.

yeah this is what it seems like. if they can't assist they can't be targeted (no lil yellow arrow thingies). but I can see op's point that it could do part of the ability (the stealth in this case). seems wai, but idk

"BobcatSkywalker;c-2050100" wrote:

"AvatarofCynicism;c-2050069" wrote:
This is probably to stop players from "wasting" the ability on someone who can't assist. Because we would have complaints if they could target someone to assist even if they weren't able to.

Some characters let you select a dazed toon other do not. I think bastilla is one that can buff someone who then they wont assist if dazed.

She cleanses, then calls the assist.

I know this thread is long dead, but Hera can legally target a dazed target with her "Play to strength" ability, which is NOT a complex ability without the zeta upgrade, so there is no cleanse in it. And yes, nothing happens. So i call it BS. Let the static jammer target a dazed ally to grant stealth to that ship.

Everything might be WAI, but it is not consistent at all

If a unit is dazed, it can't assist. The way they apparently chose to implement it is to not let you select the unit with an ability that includes assist. It's consistent across both fleet and squad for any unit with the ability to call an assist.

It's a weird choice, but it is what it is.

"Kyno;c-2152818" wrote:

"TVF;c-2152816" wrote:
That's your interpretation.

that is anecdotal

I'm not laughing.

Explain Bastila to me.

Rally 4 turn cooldown
Bastila dispels all debuffs from herself and another target ally. They both gain Offense, Defense, Speed, Accuracy, and Critical Chance Up for 3 turns, then Bastila calls that ally to assist.

First of all, the buffs last 3 turns, why shouldn't you be able to grant them to anyone, since they last way beyond the assist.

And more importantly, two of the buffs are defense and speed up, which are both 100% irrelevant for an assist. Why shouldn't you be able to grant those to anyone?

"TVF;c-2152820" wrote:
speed up, which are both 100% irrelevant for an assist.

Well it is rather 99,6% if you consider droideka...

"Kyno;c-2152823" wrote:

"TVF;c-2152820" wrote:

"Kyno;c-2152818" wrote:

"TVF;c-2152816" wrote:
That's your interpretation.

that is anecdotal

I'm not laughing.

Explain Bastila to me.

Rally 4 turn cooldown
Bastila dispels all debuffs from herself and another target ally. They both gain Offense, Defense, Speed, Accuracy, and Critical Chance Up for 3 turns, then Bastila calls that ally to assist.

First of all, the buffs last 3 turns, why shouldn't you be able to grant them to anyone, since they last way beyond the assist.

And more importantly, two of the buffs are defense and speed up, which are both 100% irrelevant for an assist. Why shouldn't you be able to grant those to anyone?

"Kyno;c-2152812" wrote:

"SerWulfgar;c-2152809" wrote:
Okay i am glad that we agree on the fact that Hera is not WAI. Now i only wish we could agree on that there SHOULD be further investigation when it comes to assisting, bc currently in a way, daze is capable of preventing buffs, like stealth or crt dmg up, whereas it only should prevent assists, counterattacks, and TM gain. Imo this is not what it should be even if it is wai.

Or. Update the description.

... the buffs or bonuses are extras, to build up the assisting attacker.

Did i say it was only to build them up for the attack?

it is a bonus to build up the assisting attacker, there are many reasons to do that, its a "thank you" for the assist, sometimes on the front end (attack buffs) sometimes on the back end (defense or healing....ext)

those are there for the assist, not just because. Thats what makes it a different ability than just a buff ability.

by blocking them from assisting they cannot get the "thank you" since they cannot offer the assist.

Interesting interpretation, one I disagree with. Ok.

"Kyno;c-2152874" wrote:

"TVF;c-2152866" wrote:

"Kyno;c-2152858" wrote:

"TVF;c-2152848" wrote:
Why are you saying the assist is the intent and that "anything else is a bonus"? Again, that's your interpretation.

based on precedent. again, those are the "natural rules" of the game we have seen from the beginning. if you were dazed you could not be selected for the ability that calls an assist (no matter any other benefits, unless it was cleanse), this is the way it was in the beginning. as i said, if you want to change it now, sure go ahead and ask for it to be changed, but it would be a change from what we have seen for any ability that called an assist. this is what highlights that the primary action of the ability has been established as the assist.

I don't remember for sure, but I seem to remember that I have in the past been able to target someone who is blocked from the benefit on a different ability, like wasting a heal on someone with healing immunity, or a buff on someone with buff immunity. Which would be inconsistent with the "natural rules" of the game you are indicating are in place.

you do realize that I am not saying that this is a blanket rule for everything. the "natural rules" of the game have many facets and yes they can be different for different things, in different situations. Its amazing how things work some times, and they are quite often not the same.

the precedent for HI and BI are as you are describing, if suddenly it worked differently that would go against the current understanding we have of the "natural rules". this is all similar to how potency/tenacity play together. its just how it was established in this game. as i said, you want to ask for it to be changed, great, change is good, but it is a change from what we currently see and have seen in the past.

Ok yeah, I guess I'm just asking for consistency then. I'm not arguing it doesn't happen or that it's a bug, I'm arguing that it doesn't make sense. If you can target someone with a heal who has heal block, you should be able to target someone with an assist who has daze. Seems logical to me, shrug.

"TVF;c-2152876" wrote:

"Kyno;c-2152874" wrote:

"TVF;c-2152866" wrote:

"Kyno;c-2152858" wrote:

"TVF;c-2152848" wrote:
Why are you saying the assist is the intent and that "anything else is a bonus"? Again, that's your interpretation.

based on precedent. again, those are the "natural rules" of the game we have seen from the beginning. if you were dazed you could not be selected for the ability that calls an assist (no matter any other benefits, unless it was cleanse), this is the way it was in the beginning. as i said, if you want to change it now, sure go ahead and ask for it to be changed, but it would be a change from what we have seen for any ability that called an assist. this is what highlights that the primary action of the ability has been established as the assist.

I don't remember for sure, but I seem to remember that I have in the past been able to target someone who is blocked from the benefit on a different ability, like wasting a heal on someone with healing immunity, or a buff on someone with buff immunity. Which would be inconsistent with the "natural rules" of the game you are indicating are in place.

you do realize that I am not saying that this is a blanket rule for everything. the "natural rules" of the game have many facets and yes they can be different for different things, in different situations. Its amazing how things work some times, and they are quite often not the same.

the precedent for HI and BI are as you are describing, if suddenly it worked differently that would go against the current understanding we have of the "natural rules". this is all similar to how potency/tenacity play together. its just how it was established in this game. as i said, you want to ask for it to be changed, great, change is good, but it is a change from what we currently see and have seen in the past.

Ok yeah, I guess I'm just asking for consistency then. I'm not arguing it doesn't happen or that it's a bug, I'm arguing that it doesn't make sense. If you can target someone with a heal who has heal block, you should be able to target someone with an assist who has daze. Seems logical to me, shrug.

absolutely, it is logical, just like saying daze should only prevent the assist is logical. but that doesn't mean thats how the game needs to be.

abilities dealing with daze should all be the same
abilities dealing with HI should be the same
abilities dealing with BI should be the same
abilities dealing with shock should be the same
...ext...

consistency between them would be fine, but doesn't' seem to be necessary as long as each "class" is handled consistently.

i'm not saying things couldn't be changed or shouldn't be changed, just that we do have some precedents set from the beginning or introduction of each element and that deeper level of understanding is what helps some players take full advantage of whats going on and adds to the strategy of the world we play in.

Could these interactions be similar to the ole “is the ability considered an attack” question? For example, Hera’s might not be considered an attack so she can target a dazed ally, whereas Ghost’s ability is, and therefore cannot target a dazed ally. I remember a long time ago that mattered but I don’t remember why or what the situation was that bore the question.