So about Revan

To begin with, revan was a master with both the light and dark side of the force, and was also one of the strongest force users (he beat Darth Malak while malak was drawing on an immense amount of darkside energy from the star forge)

And, the Jedi Exile's charisma, as stated by Kreia, mostly comes from the ability to easily make force bonds. And don't forget that the Jedi Exile was immensely powerful too, being able to beat three Sith Lords, two of them by herself.

SO revan had a kind of charisma the exile didn't have, and, also, revan beat vitiate, no easy feat.

"Setish;956224" wrote:
To begin with, revan was a master with both the light and dark side of the force, and was also one of the strongest force users (he beat Darth Malak while malak was drawing on an immense amount of darkside energy from the star forge)

What part of the game tells you that he is a master of light side and dark side force powers? I think when the game characters quote about Revan they are basing their analysis in comparison to their other peers when they call him powerful. I know that Revan could utilize both sides of the force, which in the words of Kyle Katarn from the Jedi Knight series claims there is no dark side and light side to the force powers themselves but it is about how you choose to use them. I kind of thought of Revan as the strategic learning type as he would analysis the force powers themselves and learn about their strength and weaknesses to avoid leaving themselves vulnerable to it's uses and exploit an opportunity if it was used against him.

If you played the final boss fight with Malak, you were also able to take advantage of the captured Jedi that Malak imprisoned to drain their force energies. Choosing whether to use a light side power (regaining force points) or using a dark side power (which refilled your health) or just not at all. But I would assume to some extend that the canon ending had Revan do both in his duel with Malak so the were technically both utilizing the starforge during the duel and then Revan bested Malak with his lightsaber skills I guess.

"Setish;956224" wrote:
And, the Jedi Exile's charisma, as stated by Kreia, mostly comes from the ability to easily make force bonds. And don't forget that the Jedi Exile was immensely powerful too, being able to beat three Sith Lords, two of them by herself.

I don't mean to say the Jedi Exile wasn't powerful, since they have the ability to drain the force energy of others. I do wish to point out that Nihilus was severely weakened by Visa's connection to Nihilus as well as Nihilus attempting to feast on Telo when there was barely any Jedi there. In addition to that Nihilus also attempted to try and feast on the Jedi exile but that failed since they also possessed the same ability.

"Setish;956224" wrote:
SO revan had a kind of charisma the exile didn't have, and, also, revan beat vitiate, no easy feat.

I don't remember anywhere in SWTOR saying that Revan defeated Vitiate. I thought the Revan book established that Revan was defeated by Vitiate because of Scourge's betrayal.

You're right;
Revan did fail to defeat vitiate; but that wasn't the lynch pin of my arguement :p

I believe, And, cononically, revan didn't NOT draw on the star forge, revan just was *that* much stronger than malak.

And the "there's is no light side or dark side of the force" Is a big debate through all of starwars, but I believe that by revan being both a sit lord, by later Jedi master (or equivielent), that would show his mastery of both.

And if you think about it, drawing on near-death Jedi to gain force or health doesn't particularly show any leadership or charisma qualities, especially when, as you stated, it's possible to beat Malak without the assistance of the Jedi.
But canonically, he probably didn't drain the health from the Jedi as that is, as you said, dark side, so he only probably would of drawn the "force power" out of the Jedi,
But I honestly don't think he drew out of the Jedi at all, as doing so would kill them...

(And that's why I said the Jedi exile beat 2 of the 3 Sith Lords by herself. Nihilus still would beat the shit out of anyone who wasn't also a wound in the force.)

"Setish;956255" wrote:
You're right;
Revan did fail to defeat vitiate; but that wasn't the lynch pin of my arguement :p

I believe, And, cononically, revan didn't NOT draw on the star forge, revan just was *that* much stronger than malak.

And the "there's is no light side or dark side of the force" Is a big debate through all of starwars, but I believe that by revan being both a sit lord, by later Jedi master (or equivielent), that would show his mastery of both.

And if you think about it, drawing on near-death Jedi to gain force or health doesn't particularly show any leadership or charisma qualities, especially when, as you stated, it's possible to beat Malak without the assistance of the Jedi.
But canonically, he probably didn't drain the health from the Jedi as that is, as you said, dark side, so he only probably would of drawn the "force power" out of the Jedi,
But I honestly don't think he drew out of the Jedi at all, as doing so would kill them...

(And that's why I said the Jedi exile beat 2 of the 3 Sith Lords by herself. Nihilus still would beat the **** out of anyone who wasn't also a wound in the force.)

Oh, I just referenced that drain thing because it was just a game mechanic I think it says when you use the light side you make them one with the force while using a dark side power corrupts them just like when Malak does it but doing either renders Malak unable to use them and finishes the fight faster, rather than waiting for Malak to heal up 12 times and go through like 100 full medpacks to stay alive.

Revan never beat the emperor, he simply overcame his bonds to him. So in a way he did beat him mentally, just never in combat. Revan grew to understand the force as it was meant to be understood. The jedi were stubborn with peace, and the sith were blind with hate. Revan was so strong because he believed in Passion and peace, two principles that were divided between the sith and jedi for many years. It is hard to say for canon purposes, but Revan could probably wipe the floor with current generation jedi and sith alike, such as sidious/palpatine or someone like mace windu, due to his understand and strength in both sides of the force.

Revan was amazeballs in terms of physical and force power; I don't know for sure but didn't he defeat mandalore in one on one combat? Anyways he wasn't the most OP guy ever but he was a strategic mastermind, canderous gives revan like 24/7 praise for his crazy battle tactics that were impossible to counter. On top of that he was charismatic enough to take a huge chunk of the Jedi to fight with him in a war the Jedi specifically forbade.
Idk much about the 100% canon version but my interpretation was that he was amazing with his use of the force but only decent (in Sith Lord standards) with the lightsaber. However, his strategic mind was unstoppable (basically him normal battle was roughly equal to Bastila battle meditating everyone) and he was crazy charismatic. Meanwhile malak was alright with the force (again, by Sith Lord standards) and Was an intense, darth Vader like, lightsaber user.
I never played TOR or read the comics or whatever they had so I don't know all about him, but it's well stated in both KOTORs that he was a military mastermind. And we also know that he was far better than malak in arguably everything.

TL;DR yeah he was OP, but what Sith Lord wasn't, his real strength was his military tactics and charisma.

On that point... napoleon was not a massive or physically overwhelming man. Yet his force of will and determination led to more men meeting there deaths in battle faster (in a campaign, up to that point in time) than any other period of war in mans history.

Ghengis Khan was not a giant, or the most gifted in physical abilities among the steppe peoples... but his mental attitude to think outside the box and use Sun Tzu's "art of war" teachings, never back down, and accept conquered peoples cultures, led to him wiping 2/3rds of the planets human population out.

Both of these examples relied heavily on there charismatic personalities...

Revan did this early in his career during the mandalorian war. Before he really manifested his dual nature of force mastery.

In terms of power... what is power? The ability to wield it? Or the ability to command it?

Our history will prove time and time again...the ability to command power far overshadows an individual wielding physical power time and time again. (Although in our history an honorable mention to the latter leading to the former)

Revan could do both...he both commanded power from others including fleets from the mighty starforge across an entire galaxy... AND wielded a mastery of power in both the light side AND dark side that it would be revered and sought after by many generations... like we seek the holy grail, ark of the covenant, etc...

Revan is ultimately responsible for the rule of two, which bane established after finding the sought after holocron of revan and studying revans teachings.

This impacted the galaxy long after his "death" or "disappearance"

In the form of setting the stage for Emperor Palpatine to rule estabilish the galactic imperal empire an rule with absolute impunity.

My point @OP is that revan is the very defintion of overpowered... revan was gifted whether it was natural or through training or through sheer force of will, in EVERY aspect of the force, making him an equal in any aspect to all but the supreme grandmasters of said techniques.

"PapiBlanco;956275" wrote:
Revan was amazeballs in terms of physical and force power; I don't know for sure but didn't he defeat mandalore in one on one combat?

I think Revan also defeated the Echani warriors in combat as well but I think that example just shows that they were both skilled and Revan was able to surpass Mandalore the Ultimate in terms of skill. I don't think that having superior combat skill makes a person overpowered.

You're basing this assumption solely on what occurs during KOTOR. Remember, during KOTOR Revan had recently been defeated, where it took an entire team of Jedi and Malak's betrayal to defeat him. Revan was rediscovering his power during KOTOR, which is why he seemed weaker. If you go beyond KOTOR, however, Revan is actually immensely powerful, and is able to use both the Light and Dark Sides, something very few have ever done.

"MasterSpartn;957522" wrote:
It depends which version of Revan you are discussing. Reborn Revan, which is his most powerful incarnation, is more powerful than Darth Vader, but still not as powerful as Sidious.

Just to clarify too, if Vitiate is a 8/10, Sidious is a 9/10 and Revan Reborn is a 7/10.

He's not in the top tier of power houses, but he is close.

I like to pretend Revan Reborn never happened. Lol just my personal opinion that story was too cring-worthy for me especially when I thought Darth Arkous and the Republic Colonel guy just die so soon into the story I thought Bioware was going to cash cow their plan and flesh them out as characters. The same for the dread masters but Bioware really killed it for be with Revan Reborn.