Re: Mace Windu targeting error

Let me try again

A. The reason why "This Party's Over" can only target units without Daze is because the only direct reason of the target is to call that ally to assist, as the extra bonuses are only if conditions are met.  "Hello There" can target any Galactic Republic ally, Daze or not, Because the reason is the target is not to call them to assist, so Dazed is not a factor for abilities like "Hello There". I do not own Jedi Master Kenobi, so I cannot understand what you mean with "I will do what I must". By all means, Dazed allies shouldn't be able to be targeted. However, he can target himself because if he targets himself, He isn't called to assist, as the effect gets replaced. (And if the effect did not get replaced, he wouldn't even have the opportunity to cleanse himself as the Unique states "another Light Side ally")

B. I bring up Strategic Advantage because it is relevant to the explanation. it helps explain why sometimes assist-calling abilities can target allies with daze.

C. I see I may not have been clear in my explanation in my last post. The move "This Party's Over" is not able to target allies with daze because the only thing that targeting an ally directly does is calling them to assist, with any other effects happening because of what the target is. This unfortunately means thing that rely on targets (Like the Turn Meter swap" cannot be fulfilled. Because JMK's Unique requires him to be targeted first, it creates the unfortunate situation where if Windu could target allies with Daze, JMK wouldn't have daze for the assist and subsequent TM Swap. However because he cannot target an ally with daze, He cannot fulfill the cleanse that comes with targeting JMK.

And the "while in this situation the cleanse would technically come after the assist." Was to help better understand order of operations when it comes to the interaction, that entirely depends on how effects are resolved and unfortunately I cannot guarantee how effects are resolved and I can only guess based on what would be easiest to code.

i am sorry but I really dislike the fact that someone would engage in a conversation like this without knowing the kits and abilities mentioned.

I will do what I must is the first special of JMK and it is an assist calling. It WORKS on dazed characters (you can select them and they will get cleansed) without it having a cleanse, the cleanse is coming from the unique.

This was supported by a youtube link in the original post which you apparently did not watch carefully enough, if at all.

Also, it is a very popular concept that the act of assistance is a requirement for gaining all the other effects included in the ability, but this gets contradicted by JML-s inherited teaching, and also works inconsistently with the hard stunned characters (slkr, padme for example) and works inconsistently with deadly bluff by boushh leia. More often than not beneficial effects can be realized without performing the actual assist.

Further proof to bust this theory is that you can use an assist+cleanse ability against darth revan. He will inhibit the assist, but the cleanse still will occur.

Strategic Advantage still works inconsistently with Inherited Teachings. Also, it completely misses the point that we are supposed to talk about an ability interaction between a special and a unique. SA is a standalone ability.

Alright, So I see the issue here. But still unfortunately I doubt this is a bug. JMK can target who he wishes when calling allies to assist because his assists will result in a cleanse with no outside intervention, so his targeting ignores Daze when looking for an assist. When Windu uses his assist, The game doesn't expect to have outside factors remove the cleanse, so Windu's ability doesn't have the flag that ignores Daze. Which still means that JMK cannot be targeted to get the cleanse. This is less of a bug and more a core game inconsistency issue. 

Also I am not perfect, I am trying to help out the best I can, and only read the first half of the unique dealing with others targeting JMK, as that was the core issue. I apologize for the mistake, but that does not help your core issue either, which is that because Mace Windu by himself cannot guarantee his target will not have daze after targeting them with the assist, he cannot target allies with daze. most likely the only thing the game can tell is that Mace Windu cannot cleanse the ally assisting, where JMK and units with Strategic Advantage can cleanse the ally without having to look at any other unit.

Finally we are speaking galactic basic.

I am not too much concerned about naming it a bug or core game inconsistency, I dont think the latter does any favor to the situation.

JMK's unique is active during Windu's turn and should be recognized as such. i can imagine it might be a major change in the code but I dont quite care.

I think it is a flawed view of the world to say windu cannot grant the cleanse by himself. (And JMK can.) Windu is not a person it is just a bunch of ones and zeroes and if JMK's unique is affecting another characters ability it should be coded as such from every possible aspect. The unique ability is indeed outside the special ability, inside the pack of abilities we can call a character kit, and again inside the whole team. Why would you choose to take the 2nd floor as a base? It's not logical nor is it consistent as I stated above. Negligence is not a bug per se, but we dont have to accept the WAI judgement either.

Targeting restriction is stupid, and inconsistent. Think about darth revan one more time. Can you, or can you not call an assist against him? What happens when you try it? Does the game override your command, because it is darth revan? If so, why does the cleansing/buffs apply? If it is still a valid targeting despite the fact that the assist would not occur, why is daze different?

You can target an ally when you are calling someone to assist when the target is Darth Revan because the act of assisting is blocked, not the act of choosing an ally. The game only checks if the ally can currently assist is currently able to do so, and that target is not factored until the act of assisting is executed. Daze inhibits who you can choose because regardless of who the target is, unless the unit calling them to assist can also cleanse them at the same time, they cannot preform the action of assisting. in this situation only the act of assisting is blocked, so in this case Mace would swap turn meter with whoever you choose, they just don't get called to assist (Assuming Revan had shatterpoint)

Windu being separate form JMK matters here, as most likely the characters are standalone chunks that don't read each other, but read what the others output and respond accordingly. In this situation, It means the Mace Wundu chunk cannot see into JMK and his passive, and acts as if it isn't there as it won't always be there. However JMK can read into his own block, and can target allies accordingly because no matter who is on his team, as long as they have the valid tags they are a valid target.

So very nice of them that they read into DR's kit though...

Core game inconsistency, as you said?

it doesn't read into DR's kit. like I said, One block says something and the rest respond accordingly. here,  Mace says "Hey, Ally. Time to assist", Then Darth Revan says "You can't assist against me" and the assist never happens

Again, you are missing the point. Or ignore it to prove something.

I do understand how the targeting works, I am arguing that it is stupid AF.

The description of Daze says it prevents assist and TM gain.

When it comes to complex abilities (Eh you do it by Bindo or Watch and Learn by Ezra just to name a few) you cannot select a dazed ally. That's a fact, that's the stupid part. Daze should not be able to prevent you from buffs, or heals.

But supposedly this is alright, because they would not come to assist and hence you cannot select them.

But you can select them if you cleanse them because then they come to assist.

But but you can still select them if they would not come to assist.

You can target an ally with complex assist abilities in 5 cases when they would NOT assist:

a) if they are hard stunned

b) if they are feared

c) if the opponent is DR

d) if they have deadly bluff

e) if you are JML.

Please note that e) is not a cleansing ability (inherited teachings)

You cannot target an ally with a complex assist ability in 1 case when they would NOT come to assist:

a) It is dazed and the ability does not come with a cleanse

You cannot target an ally with a complex assist ability in 1 case when they should come to assist:

a) The cleanse would come from JMK.

this is the current state of the game, and this is NOT a rule, this is almost a case-by-case resolution.