Carl's take of ways for improvement.

"JoAnne65;c-17272996" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17272938" wrote:

"JoAnne65;c-17272922" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17272666" wrote:

"JoAnne65;c-17272586" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17272276" wrote:
I like the ideas he has for improvement. Can't say that every one of them is something that majorly annoys me (careers being too easy? doesn't feel that way to me though it's a bit of a bummer that they did away with the ideal mood part for them) but the possible solutions are well thought out.

The only thing about the video that bugged me a bit was towards the end. I'm sure it wasn't his deliberate goal but when he talked about the parts of the game that he feels got more attention in TS4, it came across a lot like pitting players against each other. Bringing up things like "groups that are louder than others" isn't going to do much good in general. Or telling people they need to realize that other players want something else. That part, imo, was unnecessary. Especially since he then goes on to say: well, people who are loud have wants I don't share. I bet the vast majority of people feel that way anyway. To me, the loudest people I've seen want things like story progression and the game having more impact on what happens, which is something I don't care for but he does seem to. So it's hard to figure out who really is the loudest voice in the room. (and it's probably none of the obvious ones).

What I absolutely 100% support is his suggestion on adding options for the game to let people adjust the gameplay difficulty and give them more control over those things. There's no way to make the game perfect for everyone at the same time without giving us all the options to set it up to suit our needs because the player needs are so different across the community.

Funny, because I actually felt very much supported in that part of his video (and I’m not even part of such a group; I love building, I love storytelling and I love gameplay, I really divide my time in that respect, in Sims 3 that is). The way I interpreted it, is that what he means there is: the fact you are happy with the game the way it is doesn’t mean you’re right. And that is very much the atmosphere, at least on these forums. Don’t like the game? Well I love it so go play something else, bye bye. For me that’s exactly the attitude he adresses here in a very respectful, friendly manner. And that attitude very much needs to get some attention, because it’s not Carl who’s pitting players against each other. Players are doing that themselves, constantly.

The thing is, I didn't say he's creating the issue. And it's very much not just on one side (players who are happy with how the game is currently have been equally dismissed on the forums and elsewhere, regardless of whether they also support additions and changes to the game or not).
The way he pointed it out is just making it worse, imo. I get his point, it just missed the mark for me.

It's probably the wording and mentioning the whole "those who shout the loudest" thing combined with "they want things different to what I want". It just comes across as "we need to shout over them now" which tends to lead to shouting matches and no one winning in the end.

Both the extreme sides of all this are wrong: the ones who think the game is perfect (as I said, that's impossible in general, it can only be "perfect" for a section of players at a time as it is at the moment) and tell others to go find something else, as well as those who aren't happy and dismiss those who don't hate the game as brainwashed and similar (there's an equal amount of those in the community). And Carl's video only mentioned one side of all this properly (he wasn't wrong, I didn't say he was, it was just supporting one angle only, the way it felt to me).

Not sure how fans of this game are dismissed? It’s perfectly ok to say that you love Sims 4, nobody will tell you to please go away with that opinion. I can’t count the numerous times people here told me literally that. He most definitely doesn’t say “we need to shout over them now”. Quite an achievement to sense any agressive tone in his video in the first place, the guy is all friendliness and respect. The problem is, that any bit of criticism towards Sims 4, also constructive criticism (and this video is very constructive, from the beginning to the end) for some apparently feels like they’re being dismissed themselves. They’re not, the criticism only concerns the game, not the people who play (and like) it.

Those who enjoy the game as it is are told, not infrequently on these forums, they’re brainwashed and manipulated by EA and naive. That is (as I did point out) equally as not okay as players being told to stop playing. There have been plenty of times when I felt uncomfortable saying I like something about the game for that very reason (and I’m far from the kinda player who’s in the “nothing needs to be changed or added” group.)
I didn’t say anything about him being aggressive, I don’t know where you’re getting that bit. And yes, I agree that his video is very constructive and well thought out.

I remember one ‘brainwash’ comment that was taken all out of proportion. Nobody said people were brainwashed at that occasion, people turned a comment into that. I can’t imagine such an accusation would be ok with forum rules in the first place. As for being manipulated: we’re all being manipulated, that’s called marketing. There’s no shame in that, it happens to all of us. To be dismissed, meaning asked (told) to shut up and go away, that treatment is for Sims 4 critics only. Like someone suggesting this section should only be allowed for simmers who like and play Sims 4 and own all packs (not making that one up). I’ve been literally told to “go back to your Sims 3” not so long ago, people are being told to find another game, hobby, move on, whenever they dare to criticize the game. At one occasion even straight forward telling us we must have miserable lives. Sorry but he’s definitely got a point in relation to constructive criticism and Sims 4.

There was at least one instance when a mod on here stepped in because they felt it wasn't blown out of proportion and was most definitely against forum rules.
Two things I'm saying: it's not exclusively people who have constructive criticism who are being dismissed (which I have said several times I don't think is acceptable or okay) and that the majority of those who are currently happy with the game and enjoy what it contains already do realize that what suits them might not suit others.

Those two things are why I don't think Carl's comments quite hit the mark compared to the very insightful rest of the video.
There are bad faith actors on both sides. Where there's a dismissal of constructive criticism regarding TS4, there's an equal amount of dismissal of enjoyment of the game. It's just worded differently. Dismissal isn't just "go away", it's also "there's no way anyone can genuinely enjoy the game" (which might not be a direct quote but a sentiment I have seen more than once).

"darrenfroggy;c-17273058" wrote:

"JoAnne65;c-17272996" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17272938" wrote:

"JoAnne65;c-17272922" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17272666" wrote:

"JoAnne65;c-17272586" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17272276" wrote:
I like the ideas he has for improvement. Can't say that every one of them is something that majorly annoys me (careers being too easy? doesn't feel that way to me though it's a bit of a bummer that they did away with the ideal mood part for them) but the possible solutions are well thought out.

The only thing about the video that bugged me a bit was towards the end. I'm sure it wasn't his deliberate goal but when he talked about the parts of the game that he feels got more attention in TS4, it came across a lot like pitting players against each other. Bringing up things like "groups that are louder than others" isn't going to do much good in general. Or telling people they need to realize that other players want something else. That part, imo, was unnecessary. Especially since he then goes on to say: well, people who are loud have wants I don't share. I bet the vast majority of people feel that way anyway. To me, the loudest people I've seen want things like story progression and the game having more impact on what happens, which is something I don't care for but he does seem to. So it's hard to figure out who really is the loudest voice in the room. (and it's probably none of the obvious ones).

What I absolutely 100% support is his suggestion on adding options for the game to let people adjust the gameplay difficulty and give them more control over those things. There's no way to make the game perfect for everyone at the same time without giving us all the options to set it up to suit our needs because the player needs are so different across the community.

Funny, because I actually felt very much supported in that part of his video (and I’m not even part of such a group; I love building, I love storytelling and I love gameplay, I really divide my time in that respect, in Sims 3 that is). The way I interpreted it, is that what he means there is: the fact you are happy with the game the way it is doesn’t mean you’re right. And that is very much the atmosphere, at least on these forums. Don’t like the game? Well I love it so go play something else, bye bye. For me that’s exactly the attitude he adresses here in a very respectful, friendly manner. And that attitude very much needs to get some attention, because it’s not Carl who’s pitting players against each other. Players are doing that themselves, constantly.

The thing is, I didn't say he's creating the issue. And it's very much not just on one side (players who are happy with how the game is currently have been equally dismissed on the forums and elsewhere, regardless of whether they also support additions and changes to the game or not).
The way he pointed it out is just making it worse, imo. I get his point, it just missed the mark for me.

It's probably the wording and mentioning the whole "those who shout the loudest" thing combined with "they want things different to what I want". It just comes across as "we need to shout over them now" which tends to lead to shouting matches and no one winning in the end.

Both the extreme sides of all this are wrong: the ones who think the game is perfect (as I said, that's impossible in general, it can only be "perfect" for a section of players at a time as it is at the moment) and tell others to go find something else, as well as those who aren't happy and dismiss those who don't hate the game as brainwashed and similar (there's an equal amount of those in the community). And Carl's video only mentioned one side of all this properly (he wasn't wrong, I didn't say he was, it was just supporting one angle only, the way it felt to me).

Not sure how fans of this game are dismissed? It’s perfectly ok to say that you love Sims 4, nobody will tell you to please go away with that opinion. I can’t count the numerous times people here told me literally that. He most definitely doesn’t say “we need to shout over them now”. Quite an achievement to sense any agressive tone in his video in the first place, the guy is all friendliness and respect. The problem is, that any bit of criticism towards Sims 4, also constructive criticism (and this video is very constructive, from the beginning to the end) for some apparently feels like they’re being dismissed themselves. They’re not, the criticism only concerns the game, not the people who play (and like) it.

Those who enjoy the game as it is are told, not infrequently on these forums, they’re brainwashed and manipulated by EA and naive. That is (as I did point out) equally as not okay as players being told to stop playing. There have been plenty of times when I felt uncomfortable saying I like something about the game for that very reason (and I’m far from the kinda player who’s in the “nothing needs to be changed or added” group.)
I didn’t say anything about him being aggressive, I don’t know where you’re getting that bit. And yes, I agree that his video is very constructive and well thought out.

I remember one ‘brainwash’ comment that was taken all out of proportion. Nobody said people were brainwashed at that occasion, people turned a comment into that. I can’t imagine such an accusation would be ok with forum rules in the first place. As for being manipulated: we’re all being manipulated, that’s called marketing. There’s no shame in that, it happens to all of us. To be dismissed, meaning asked (told) to shut up and go away, that treatment is for Sims 4 critics only. Like someone suggesting this section should only be allowed for simmers who like and play Sims 4 and own all packs (not making that one up). I’ve been literally told to “go back to your Sims 3” not so long ago, people are being told to find another game, hobby, move on, whenever they dare to criticize the game. At one occasion even straight forward telling us we must have miserable lives. Sorry but he’s definitely got a point in relation to constructive criticism and Sims 4.

There was at least one instance when a mod on here stepped in because they felt it wasn't blown out of proportion and was most definitely against forum rules.
Two things I'm saying: it's not exclusively people who have constructive criticism who are being dismissed (which I have said several times I don't think is acceptable or okay) and that the majority of those who are currently happy with the game and enjoy what it contains already do realize that what suits them might not suit others.

Those two things are why I don't think Carl's comments quite hit the mark compared to the very insightful rest of the video.
There are bad faith actors on both sides. Where there's a dismissal of constructive criticism regarding TS4, there's an equal amount of dismissal of enjoyment of the game. It's just worded differently. Dismissal isn't just "go away", it's also "there's no way anyone can genuinely enjoy the game" (which might not be a direct quote but a sentiment I have seen more than once).

I found the post (if it’s the one you’re referring to), @CK213 had put that comment into the right context there. There’s no point in redoing that discussion though, because it’s completely not Carl’s point who is being the meanest or most dismissive to whom. The community is divided, that’s a given.

The point is: criticism towards Sims 4 is justified, also when you love the game. Criticism towards Sims 4 is justified, also when you don’t play the game anymore. Because there’s a reason people don’t play this version anymore and that reason I can assure you is not that they’re tired of the game. Advising those people to go play the old games, often presented as a solution, is not constructive and only an attempt to silence those who love this franchise but are having valid issues with this latest version. Why do they indeed still play those older versions, for what reasons. And whether those reasons apply to you or not, that group of simmers has every right to be heard, their reasons and their feedback matters and I’m really glad to finally see someone, a gamechanger, acknowledging that.

I really think that’s his only point there: listen guys, the fact we express what we think is wrong with this game doesn’t mean we think it’s impossible to enjoy it, it means it can mainly be enjoyed when you’re a storyteller. But other types of players like to be catered too.

"JoAnne65;c-17273102" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17273058" wrote:

"JoAnne65;c-17272996" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17272938" wrote:

"JoAnne65;c-17272922" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17272666" wrote:

"JoAnne65;c-17272586" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17272276" wrote:
I like the ideas he has for improvement. Can't say that every one of them is something that majorly annoys me (careers being too easy? doesn't feel that way to me though it's a bit of a bummer that they did away with the ideal mood part for them) but the possible solutions are well thought out.

The only thing about the video that bugged me a bit was towards the end. I'm sure it wasn't his deliberate goal but when he talked about the parts of the game that he feels got more attention in TS4, it came across a lot like pitting players against each other. Bringing up things like "groups that are louder than others" isn't going to do much good in general. Or telling people they need to realize that other players want something else. That part, imo, was unnecessary. Especially since he then goes on to say: well, people who are loud have wants I don't share. I bet the vast majority of people feel that way anyway. To me, the loudest people I've seen want things like story progression and the game having more impact on what happens, which is something I don't care for but he does seem to. So it's hard to figure out who really is the loudest voice in the room. (and it's probably none of the obvious ones).

What I absolutely 100% support is his suggestion on adding options for the game to let people adjust the gameplay difficulty and give them more control over those things. There's no way to make the game perfect for everyone at the same time without giving us all the options to set it up to suit our needs because the player needs are so different across the community.

Funny, because I actually felt very much supported in that part of his video (and I’m not even part of such a group; I love building, I love storytelling and I love gameplay, I really divide my time in that respect, in Sims 3 that is). The way I interpreted it, is that what he means there is: the fact you are happy with the game the way it is doesn’t mean you’re right. And that is very much the atmosphere, at least on these forums. Don’t like the game? Well I love it so go play something else, bye bye. For me that’s exactly the attitude he adresses here in a very respectful, friendly manner. And that attitude very much needs to get some attention, because it’s not Carl who’s pitting players against each other. Players are doing that themselves, constantly.

The thing is, I didn't say he's creating the issue. And it's very much not just on one side (players who are happy with how the game is currently have been equally dismissed on the forums and elsewhere, regardless of whether they also support additions and changes to the game or not).
The way he pointed it out is just making it worse, imo. I get his point, it just missed the mark for me.

It's probably the wording and mentioning the whole "those who shout the loudest" thing combined with "they want things different to what I want". It just comes across as "we need to shout over them now" which tends to lead to shouting matches and no one winning in the end.

Both the extreme sides of all this are wrong: the ones who think the game is perfect (as I said, that's impossible in general, it can only be "perfect" for a section of players at a time as it is at the moment) and tell others to go find something else, as well as those who aren't happy and dismiss those who don't hate the game as brainwashed and similar (there's an equal amount of those in the community). And Carl's video only mentioned one side of all this properly (he wasn't wrong, I didn't say he was, it was just supporting one angle only, the way it felt to me).

Not sure how fans of this game are dismissed? It’s perfectly ok to say that you love Sims 4, nobody will tell you to please go away with that opinion. I can’t count the numerous times people here told me literally that. He most definitely doesn’t say “we need to shout over them now”. Quite an achievement to sense any agressive tone in his video in the first place, the guy is all friendliness and respect. The problem is, that any bit of criticism towards Sims 4, also constructive criticism (and this video is very constructive, from the beginning to the end) for some apparently feels like they’re being dismissed themselves. They’re not, the criticism only concerns the game, not the people who play (and like) it.

Those who enjoy the game as it is are told, not infrequently on these forums, they’re brainwashed and manipulated by EA and naive. That is (as I did point out) equally as not okay as players being told to stop playing. There have been plenty of times when I felt uncomfortable saying I like something about the game for that very reason (and I’m far from the kinda player who’s in the “nothing needs to be changed or added” group.)
I didn’t say anything about him being aggressive, I don’t know where you’re getting that bit. And yes, I agree that his video is very constructive and well thought out.

I remember one ‘brainwash’ comment that was taken all out of proportion. Nobody said people were brainwashed at that occasion, people turned a comment into that. I can’t imagine such an accusation would be ok with forum rules in the first place. As for being manipulated: we’re all being manipulated, that’s called marketing. There’s no shame in that, it happens to all of us. To be dismissed, meaning asked (told) to shut up and go away, that treatment is for Sims 4 critics only. Like someone suggesting this section should only be allowed for simmers who like and play Sims 4 and own all packs (not making that one up). I’ve been literally told to “go back to your Sims 3” not so long ago, people are being told to find another game, hobby, move on, whenever they dare to criticize the game. At one occasion even straight forward telling us we must have miserable lives. Sorry but he’s definitely got a point in relation to constructive criticism and Sims 4.

There was at least one instance when a mod on here stepped in because they felt it wasn't blown out of proportion and was most definitely against forum rules.
Two things I'm saying: it's not exclusively people who have constructive criticism who are being dismissed (which I have said several times I don't think is acceptable or okay) and that the majority of those who are currently happy with the game and enjoy what it contains already do realize that what suits them might not suit others.

Those two things are why I don't think Carl's comments quite hit the mark compared to the very insightful rest of the video.
There are bad faith actors on both sides. Where there's a dismissal of constructive criticism regarding TS4, there's an equal amount of dismissal of enjoyment of the game. It's just worded differently. Dismissal isn't just "go away", it's also "there's no way anyone can genuinely enjoy the game" (which might not be a direct quote but a sentiment I have seen more than once).

I found the post (if it’s the one you’re referring to), @CK213 had put that comment into the right context there. There’s no point in redoing that discussion though, because it’s completely not Carl’s point who is being the meanest or most dismissive to whom. The community is divided, that’s a given.

The point is: criticism towards Sims 4 is justified, also when you love the game. Criticism towards Sims 4 is justified, also when you don’t play the game anymore. Because there’s a reason people don’t play this version anymore and that reason I can assure you is not that they’re tired of the game. Advising those people to go play the old games, often presented as a solution, is not constructive and only an attempt to silence those who love this franchise but are having valid issues with this latest version. Why do they indeed still play those older versions, for what reasons. And whether those reasons apply to you or not, that group of simmers has every right to be heard, their reasons and their feedback matters and I’m really glad to finally see someone, a gamechanger, acknowledging that.

I really think that’s his only point there: listen guys, the fact we express what we think is wrong with this game doesn’t mean we think it’s impossible to enjoy it, it means it can mainly be enjoyed when you’re a storyteller. But other types of players like to be catered too.

The video by Torulf Jernström which CK213 has linked there, if you haven't seen it, is really very important to watch if you're a gamer. You need to understand what the devs are doing. The manipulation is unreal, and it is deliberate, and knowing the techniques makes it easier to not fall for them.

Here's another link to the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4

Edit: To get back OT (sorry) it's important that all voices feel that they're heard. I think acknowledging that there is a schism in the community is important. I don't recall him taking sides or anything. The thing is, the people who are 100% happy with the game as is, that side is known. We all know the game. But people who have issues or who are unsatisfied, we don't feel heard nor responded to.

"JoAnne65;c-17273102" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17273058" wrote:

"JoAnne65;c-17272996" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17272938" wrote:

"JoAnne65;c-17272922" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17272666" wrote:

"JoAnne65;c-17272586" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17272276" wrote:
I like the ideas he has for improvement. Can't say that every one of them is something that majorly annoys me (careers being too easy? doesn't feel that way to me though it's a bit of a bummer that they did away with the ideal mood part for them) but the possible solutions are well thought out.

The only thing about the video that bugged me a bit was towards the end. I'm sure it wasn't his deliberate goal but when he talked about the parts of the game that he feels got more attention in TS4, it came across a lot like pitting players against each other. Bringing up things like "groups that are louder than others" isn't going to do much good in general. Or telling people they need to realize that other players want something else. That part, imo, was unnecessary. Especially since he then goes on to say: well, people who are loud have wants I don't share. I bet the vast majority of people feel that way anyway. To me, the loudest people I've seen want things like story progression and the game having more impact on what happens, which is something I don't care for but he does seem to. So it's hard to figure out who really is the loudest voice in the room. (and it's probably none of the obvious ones).

What I absolutely 100% support is his suggestion on adding options for the game to let people adjust the gameplay difficulty and give them more control over those things. There's no way to make the game perfect for everyone at the same time without giving us all the options to set it up to suit our needs because the player needs are so different across the community.

Funny, because I actually felt very much supported in that part of his video (and I’m not even part of such a group; I love building, I love storytelling and I love gameplay, I really divide my time in that respect, in Sims 3 that is). The way I interpreted it, is that what he means there is: the fact you are happy with the game the way it is doesn’t mean you’re right. And that is very much the atmosphere, at least on these forums. Don’t like the game? Well I love it so go play something else, bye bye. For me that’s exactly the attitude he adresses here in a very respectful, friendly manner. And that attitude very much needs to get some attention, because it’s not Carl who’s pitting players against each other. Players are doing that themselves, constantly.

The thing is, I didn't say he's creating the issue. And it's very much not just on one side (players who are happy with how the game is currently have been equally dismissed on the forums and elsewhere, regardless of whether they also support additions and changes to the game or not).
The way he pointed it out is just making it worse, imo. I get his point, it just missed the mark for me.

It's probably the wording and mentioning the whole "those who shout the loudest" thing combined with "they want things different to what I want". It just comes across as "we need to shout over them now" which tends to lead to shouting matches and no one winning in the end.

Both the extreme sides of all this are wrong: the ones who think the game is perfect (as I said, that's impossible in general, it can only be "perfect" for a section of players at a time as it is at the moment) and tell others to go find something else, as well as those who aren't happy and dismiss those who don't hate the game as brainwashed and similar (there's an equal amount of those in the community). And Carl's video only mentioned one side of all this properly (he wasn't wrong, I didn't say he was, it was just supporting one angle only, the way it felt to me).

Not sure how fans of this game are dismissed? It’s perfectly ok to say that you love Sims 4, nobody will tell you to please go away with that opinion. I can’t count the numerous times people here told me literally that. He most definitely doesn’t say “we need to shout over them now”. Quite an achievement to sense any agressive tone in his video in the first place, the guy is all friendliness and respect. The problem is, that any bit of criticism towards Sims 4, also constructive criticism (and this video is very constructive, from the beginning to the end) for some apparently feels like they’re being dismissed themselves. They’re not, the criticism only concerns the game, not the people who play (and like) it.

Those who enjoy the game as it is are told, not infrequently on these forums, they’re brainwashed and manipulated by EA and naive. That is (as I did point out) equally as not okay as players being told to stop playing. There have been plenty of times when I felt uncomfortable saying I like something about the game for that very reason (and I’m far from the kinda player who’s in the “nothing needs to be changed or added” group.)
I didn’t say anything about him being aggressive, I don’t know where you’re getting that bit. And yes, I agree that his video is very constructive and well thought out.

I remember one ‘brainwash’ comment that was taken all out of proportion. Nobody said people were brainwashed at that occasion, people turned a comment into that. I can’t imagine such an accusation would be ok with forum rules in the first place. As for being manipulated: we’re all being manipulated, that’s called marketing. There’s no shame in that, it happens to all of us. To be dismissed, meaning asked (told) to shut up and go away, that treatment is for Sims 4 critics only. Like someone suggesting this section should only be allowed for simmers who like and play Sims 4 and own all packs (not making that one up). I’ve been literally told to “go back to your Sims 3” not so long ago, people are being told to find another game, hobby, move on, whenever they dare to criticize the game. At one occasion even straight forward telling us we must have miserable lives. Sorry but he’s definitely got a point in relation to constructive criticism and Sims 4.

There was at least one instance when a mod on here stepped in because they felt it wasn't blown out of proportion and was most definitely against forum rules.
Two things I'm saying: it's not exclusively people who have constructive criticism who are being dismissed (which I have said several times I don't think is acceptable or okay) and that the majority of those who are currently happy with the game and enjoy what it contains already do realize that what suits them might not suit others.

Those two things are why I don't think Carl's comments quite hit the mark compared to the very insightful rest of the video.
There are bad faith actors on both sides. Where there's a dismissal of constructive criticism regarding TS4, there's an equal amount of dismissal of enjoyment of the game. It's just worded differently. Dismissal isn't just "go away", it's also "there's no way anyone can genuinely enjoy the game" (which might not be a direct quote but a sentiment I have seen more than once).

I found the post (if it’s the one you’re referring to), @CK213 had put that comment into the right context there. There’s no point in redoing that discussion though, because it’s completely not Carl’s point who is being the meanest or most dismissive to whom. The community is divided, that’s a given.

The point is: criticism towards Sims 4 is justified, also when you love the game. Criticism towards Sims 4 is justified, also when you don’t play the game anymore. Because there’s a reason people don’t play this version anymore and that reason I can assure you is not that they’re tired of the game. Advising those people to go play the old games, often presented as a solution, is not constructive and only an attempt to silence those who love this franchise but are having valid issues with this latest version. Why do they indeed still play those older versions, for what reasons. And whether those reasons apply to you or not, that group of simmers has every right to be heard, their reasons and their feedback matters and I’m really glad to finally see someone, a gamechanger, acknowledging that.

I really think that’s his only point there: listen guys, the fact we express what we think is wrong with this game doesn’t mean we think it’s impossible to enjoy it, it means it can mainly be enjoyed when you’re a storyteller. But other types of players like to be catered too.

I get what his point was, I do. All I'm saying is that to me it didn't come across that way and brought up a different feeling and it could've been avoided by what you said here rather than "people who are happy need to realize that other players want something else" and "those who shout the loudest" phrasing. And I'm not saying anyone doesn't deserve to be heard, I just don't think it's something to be directed at other players because it's very likely that they already do listen (with unfortunate exceptions in every corner of the community).

The thing is also that the issues that exist in the game differ for pretty much every player. And that's where the "valid" kind of runs into a mess because who's to say whose side should have more weight (other than, obviously, things that are clearly bugged, which is a whole different discussion, rather than "I don't like how this works")? That's why I liked him bringing up the ability to choose when it comes to gameplay difficulty and I'm really glad someone did. It's really unfortunate that the solution the devs have seems to be "let's change it" instead of "let's make another way available".

He has a lot of good takes which I hope can and will be implemented, be it in TS4 or brought forward into the next version if there is one. And I think he'd find that there are many people who do support and agree with those things.
(now, if I ever stop seeing "I don't want another option available, I like it the way it is" or "I don't like that there's the option to make things easier", it won't be too soon. But that's not a problem with the game.).

"Uzone27;c-17273110" wrote:

"Camkat;c-17271557" wrote:

"Uzone27;c-17271349" wrote:
My first experience with the Sims ended up with my Sim being in such a catastrophic state that I couldn't get him to do anything.
To make matters worse it was my "Self Sim" (Something all Simmers do sooner or later no?)
The thing is...I didn't know anything about the Sims. I bought the game from a bargain bin. loaded and started playing.
From that perspective you might have a better appreciation for the difficulty of the game if you don't live under the hood.

This place (our beloved forum) is one massive spoiler.
The ultimate challenge would be to see someone try and figure out how this game works without any help at all.

I get that too. It happened to me in the beginning and it likely happened to most of us. Thing is, once you learn (and it doesn't take that long) there's nothing left anymore. :/ Part of the fun, at least for me is the learning and the challenge. You clearly found it a challenge at the beginning and you're still here. Making it a wee harder with some consequences wouldn't chase most away.

I get ya. This is a really tricky topic to be sure because reading these comments really drives home not only the difference in game play styles but also in semantics.
It's pretty obvious that "challenge" means different things to different people, so if I'm putting myself in a designer/developers shoes, my job would be to try and find the consensus definition (which in this case is akin to herding cats)

To be fair I would say they have done an admirable job in producing a game that's all things for everyone.
The passion that motivates a player to continue playing any game depends on it's replay value.
I do miss the grindy days of cozy one lot Simming where keeping every Sim happy and successful was the goal of the game.
Start out in the plum house and guide your Sim to the top of the social ladder.
^Thats pretty much what i remember on the back of the CD case....so when I started, those were my expectations.

When I failed miserably at it the first time I tried....my reaction was...woah...there's a lot going on under the hood of this game than I initially thought...now I'm hooked. I wanna see how deep this programming really goes.

So I tried again (My self Sim from the first attempt didn't actually die...he just entered catastrophic aspiration failure)
The second time around I was learning little tricks like not allowing a radio in the same room as a sleeping Sim, how to click on the bookcase to learn how to cook. "We notice your Sim is eating nothing but beans...try clicking on the bookcase to learn how to cook on the stove"

Hmm...yeah this game is definitely worth exploring if I'm missing stuff like that....

Once you know everything...yep..you are going to have to find new ways of exploring without making it inaccessible for anyone trying to play the game the way it was intended.

No cheats, no spoilers.
The developers never lost sight of that, much to the chagrin of people who know everything there is to know about this game and find themselves bored.

I beg to differ with your last sentence, but agree with most of your post. The developers have absolutely lost sight of the roots of this game or this franchise. When Sims can walk by dead bodies and get a boost from a cheap decor object and not even notice someone in the game is dead, it says, we didn't spend much time on making the AI as smart as we claimed.

"Felicity;c-17273137" wrote:


The video by Torulf Jernström which CK213 has linked there, if you haven't seen it, is really very important to watch if you're a gamer. You need to understand what the devs are doing. The manipulation is unreal, and it is deliberate, and knowing the techniques makes it easier to not fall for them.

Here's another link to the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4

Edit: To get back OT (sorry) it's important that all voices feel that they're heard. I think acknowledging that there is a schism in the community is important. I don't recall him taking sides or anything. The thing is, the people who are 100% happy with the game as is, that side is known. We all know the game. But people who have issues or who are unsatisfied, we don't feel heard nor responded to.

Yeah sadly it has crept into gaming a lot. I've dealt with the whole gamification thing before and story about that can be found here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/ch0bmz/forum_site_gaia_online_and_how_management/

Pretty much management described customers as lab rats and then as soon as he had enough, he took off with the money and old founders had to buy the company back from him. There was a schism when I joined forums in 2015 too and it just felt like Romeo and Juliet. So true, doesn't help that one side tends to be heard and it is really noticeable with the Sims streams. Poor new Simmer was being scared off by so called "fans" and honestly they just needed to be told where to report bugs which SimGuruFrost did. I've seen ugly on both sides and I've been trolled by both sides which is why I remain in the neutral zone. I may not agree with everyone, but at least I have my own mind about things. The censorship fans have done over the past five years hasn't helped the game and I think it is only now they are realizing how wrong they were about DLC not improving the base game. I tried to warn people but yes like you said, never was heard. I've experienced divided communities before. Makes me think of Roman history, "The Empire had become too large to rule effectively. The outer provinces were pretty much doing whatever they wanted. Emperor Diocletian was looking for a way to fix this and other problems. He decided that the only thing to do was to actually break the empire into two pieces." That is why there are the sayings "divide and conquer" and the saying "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it". If anything will end the Sims series is what ended SimCity is the schism of the community. So Simmers are welcome to scare fellow customers and take money out of the Gurus pockets doing so. They are only hurting themselves and the Gurus. If Simmers truly want to save the game they care about so much and help the Gurus and their fellow Simmers out, they need to put differences aside and come up with compromises. Because if they don't, well look what happened to Rome and to the site I was on Gaiaonline. It ended up in failure and continued division.

"Uzone27;c-17273217" wrote:

"Cinebar;c-17273167" wrote:

"Uzone27;c-17273110" wrote:

"Camkat;c-17271557" wrote:

"Uzone27;c-17271349" wrote:
My first experience with the Sims ended up with my Sim being in such a catastrophic state that I couldn't get him to do anything.
To make matters worse it was my "Self Sim" (Something all Simmers do sooner or later no?)
The thing is...I didn't know anything about the Sims. I bought the game from a bargain bin. loaded and started playing.
From that perspective you might have a better appreciation for the difficulty of the game if you don't live under the hood.

This place (our beloved forum) is one massive spoiler.
The ultimate challenge would be to see someone try and figure out how this game works without any help at all.

I get that too. It happened to me in the beginning and it likely happened to most of us. Thing is, once you learn (and it doesn't take that long) there's nothing left anymore. :/ Part of the fun, at least for me is the learning and the challenge. You clearly found it a challenge at the beginning and you're still here. Making it a wee harder with some consequences wouldn't chase most away.

I get ya. This is a really tricky topic to be sure because reading these comments really drives home not only the difference in game play styles but also in semantics.
It's pretty obvious that "challenge" means different things to different people, so if I'm putting myself in a designer/developers shoes, my job would be to try and find the consensus definition (which in this case is akin to herding cats)

To be fair I would say they have done an admirable job in producing a game that's all things for everyone.
The passion that motivates a player to continue playing any game depends on it's replay value.
I do miss the grindy days of cozy one lot Simming where keeping every Sim happy and successful was the goal of the game.
Start out in the plum house and guide your Sim to the top of the social ladder.
^Thats pretty much what i remember on the back of the CD case....so when I started, those were my expectations.

When I failed miserably at it the first time I tried....my reaction was...woah...there's a lot going on under the hood of this game than I initially thought...now I'm hooked. I wanna see how deep this programming really goes.

So I tried again (My self Sim from the first attempt didn't actually die...he just entered catastrophic aspiration failure)
The second time around I was learning little tricks like not allowing a radio in the same room as a sleeping Sim, how to click on the bookcase to learn how to cook. "We notice your Sim is eating nothing but beans...try clicking on the bookcase to learn how to cook on the stove"

Hmm...yeah this game is definitely worth exploring if I'm missing stuff like that....

Once you know everything...yep..you are going to have to find new ways of exploring without making it inaccessible for anyone trying to play the game the way it was intended.

No cheats, no spoilers.
The developers never lost sight of that, much to the chagrin of people who know everything there is to know about this game and find themselves bored.

I beg to differ with your last sentence, but agree with most of your post. The developers have absolutely lost sight of the roots of this game or this franchise. When Sims can walk by dead bodies and get a boost from a cheap decor object and not even notice someone in the game is dead, it says, we didn't spend much time on making the AI as smart as we claimed.

I hear ya.
The fact that anyone is still here in spite of the radical changes that this game has undergone...and the sheer passion that people express when change is introduced fascinates me to no end.

It's why i keep coming back to the forums.
As to why I keep coming back to the Sims?
I still find it charming and creative. Take it for what it's worth.

For some, (maybe even me) the game is not the game but talking about the game is the game. I think twitter and Youtube have helped this hapen and some of us do spend more time talking (good or bad) about this game rather than playing. lol Even game changers don't actually play, they make videos about them talking about the game. I think TS4 is the only game that some spend more time talking about it rather than playing it. And I think this is all by design, it's more important to talk about something these days (social media culture) rather than actually do something. lol Even I have to admit, I get more out of talking about this game than I do playing it.

"JoAnne65;c-17273102" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17273058" wrote:

"JoAnne65;c-17272996" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17272938" wrote:

"JoAnne65;c-17272922" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17272666" wrote:

"JoAnne65;c-17272586" wrote:

"darrenfroggy;c-17272276" wrote:
I like the ideas he has for improvement. Can't say that every one of them is something that majorly annoys me (careers being too easy? doesn't feel that way to me though it's a bit of a bummer that they did away with the ideal mood part for them) but the possible solutions are well thought out.

The only thing about the video that bugged me a bit was towards the end. I'm sure it wasn't his deliberate goal but when he talked about the parts of the game that he feels got more attention in TS4, it came across a lot like pitting players against each other. Bringing up things like "groups that are louder than others" isn't going to do much good in general. Or telling people they need to realize that other players want something else. That part, imo, was unnecessary. Especially since he then goes on to say: well, people who are loud have wants I don't share. I bet the vast majority of people feel that way anyway. To me, the loudest people I've seen want things like story progression and the game having more impact on what happens, which is something I don't care for but he does seem to. So it's hard to figure out who really is the loudest voice in the room. (and it's probably none of the obvious ones).

What I absolutely 100% support is his suggestion on adding options for the game to let people adjust the gameplay difficulty and give them more control over those things. There's no way to make the game perfect for everyone at the same time without giving us all the options to set it up to suit our needs because the player needs are so different across the community.

Funny, because I actually felt very much supported in that part of his video (and I’m not even part of such a group; I love building, I love storytelling and I love gameplay, I really divide my time in that respect, in Sims 3 that is). The way I interpreted it, is that what he means there is: the fact you are happy with the game the way it is doesn’t mean you’re right. And that is very much the atmosphere, at least on these forums. Don’t like the game? Well I love it so go play something else, bye bye. For me that’s exactly the attitude he adresses here in a very respectful, friendly manner. And that attitude very much needs to get some attention, because it’s not Carl who’s pitting players against each other. Players are doing that themselves, constantly.

The thing is, I didn't say he's creating the issue. And it's very much not just on one side (players who are happy with how the game is currently have been equally dismissed on the forums and elsewhere, regardless of whether they also support additions and changes to the game or not).
The way he pointed it out is just making it worse, imo. I get his point, it just missed the mark for me.

It's probably the wording and mentioning the whole "those who shout the loudest" thing combined with "they want things different to what I want". It just comes across as "we need to shout over them now" which tends to lead to shouting matches and no one winning in the end.

Both the extreme sides of all this are wrong: the ones who think the game is perfect (as I said, that's impossible in general, it can only be "perfect" for a section of players at a time as it is at the moment) and tell others to go find something else, as well as those who aren't happy and dismiss those who don't hate the game as brainwashed and similar (there's an equal amount of those in the community). And Carl's video only mentioned one side of all this properly (he wasn't wrong, I didn't say he was, it was just supporting one angle only, the way it felt to me).

Not sure how fans of this game are dismissed? It’s perfectly ok to say that you love Sims 4, nobody will tell you to please go away with that opinion. I can’t count the numerous times people here told me literally that. He most definitely doesn’t say “we need to shout over them now”. Quite an achievement to sense any agressive tone in his video in the first place, the guy is all friendliness and respect. The problem is, that any bit of criticism towards Sims 4, also constructive criticism (and this video is very constructive, from the beginning to the end) for some apparently feels like they’re being dismissed themselves. They’re not, the criticism only concerns the game, not the people who play (and like) it.

Those who enjoy the game as it is are told, not infrequently on these forums, they’re brainwashed and manipulated by EA and naive. That is (as I did point out) equally as not okay as players being told to stop playing. There have been plenty of times when I felt uncomfortable saying I like something about the game for that very reason (and I’m far from the kinda player who’s in the “nothing needs to be changed or added” group.)
I didn’t say anything about him being aggressive, I don’t know where you’re getting that bit. And yes, I agree that his video is very constructive and well thought out.

I remember one ‘brainwash’ comment that was taken all out of proportion. Nobody said people were brainwashed at that occasion, people turned a comment into that. I can’t imagine such an accusation would be ok with forum rules in the first place. As for being manipulated: we’re all being manipulated, that’s called marketing. There’s no shame in that, it happens to all of us. To be dismissed, meaning asked (told) to shut up and go away, that treatment is for Sims 4 critics only. Like someone suggesting this section should only be allowed for simmers who like and play Sims 4 and own all packs (not making that one up). I’ve been literally told to “go back to your Sims 3” not so long ago, people are being told to find another game, hobby, move on, whenever they dare to criticize the game. At one occasion even straight forward telling us we must have miserable lives. Sorry but he’s definitely got a point in relation to constructive criticism and Sims 4.

There was at least one instance when a mod on here stepped in because they felt it wasn't blown out of proportion and was most definitely against forum rules.
Two things I'm saying: it's not exclusively people who have constructive criticism who are being dismissed (which I have said several times I don't think is acceptable or okay) and that the majority of those who are currently happy with the game and enjoy what it contains already do realize that what suits them might not suit others.

Those two things are why I don't think Carl's comments quite hit the mark compared to the very insightful rest of the video.
There are bad faith actors on both sides. Where there's a dismissal of constructive criticism regarding TS4, there's an equal amount of dismissal of enjoyment of the game. It's just worded differently. Dismissal isn't just "go away", it's also "there's no way anyone can genuinely enjoy the game" (which might not be a direct quote but a sentiment I have seen more than once).

Advising those people to go play the old games, often presented as a solution, is not constructive and only an attempt to silence those who love this franchise but are having valid issues with this latest version.

Yeah, it always come off as "Shut up about it already". And the people that do that, which can fond hilariously a failure when unbeknownst to them thatm to whoever they're direct it at may be already sticking to their advice (standing by their complaint by having boycott entirely and returned playing older games). This just leaves the 'friendly advice' it a bad taste, once you pick up the tone as a "will you cut it out with your whining already" passive aggressive manner. Sometimes you wish the community wasn't so divided, if werent part in due how people assosiate their favorite video game as if it were their mamma. Say a bad thing of the game they're overly attached to, they'll jump in as if their mamma had been insulted. Either you partake in a civil debate/discussion that pertains to the GAME, or you just turn away.

I‘ve been a fan of Carl‘s site and YT channel from the very first day. He is about the only one out there who I can really listen to without feeling/getting annoyed by voice/speed lol. And what he says and writes is always very well thought over and investigated before posting. He grabs the issues right by the balls without beating around the bush like most GC. This video was probably created because he got tired of hearing, reading and seeing the same ol‘ thing over and over for the last 5 years. The lack of gameplay up to this day has finally stopped a few game changers holding their breath and finally speaking up. Even James lol.
I love the Sims 4 too, but I‘ve played TS2 more than TS4 because of all those reasons that Carl nicely pointed out.

It will be very interesting to read or listen to Carl's review of the university pack, since he is so descriptive of what is wrong with the game in it's entirety and of the IL and magic packs. I'm going to bet he won't be impressed with the new pack, either, because it seems the correlation to skills, gameplay and aspirations and consequences matter to him, too.