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simgirl1010's avatar
5 years ago

Simulation Lag. Get A Better Computer?

Carl's Guide

https://youtu.be/0WBXbGfXzsc

15 Replies

  • "Babykittyjade;c-17691813" wrote:
    I'm a little confused exactly what lag is being referred to here. From personal experience I can say once I upgraded my pc all lag (as in shuddering screen when trying to move around) has been eliminated. And this is with tons upon tons of cc. I can play on a 64x64 3 story cluttered lot with 0 issues. I couldn't with the bad pc.

    If you mean the lag that happens where sims stare off into nothing before doing anything you tell them, or stop doing things to stand there then I still have that kind of lag.

    But I honestly think most issues people complain about can be solved with a better pc


    This is exactly the lag he addresses in the video. I’m glad i watched because I have a more than adequate machine and I have this problem too sometimes and now I think I can mostly avoid it after watching this.
  • It's a good video. Basically I already play in ways by choice and preference that helps me avoid most problems... and I have an computer that can run it.
  • "logion;c-17691704" wrote:
    "adamzaid;c-17691690" wrote:
    i own what i consider to be a very decent gaming pc with a i5 9400f and a gtx 1650 super and i still get simulation lag albeit depending on sitations like which world i am in and how many sims are there but it seems like simulation lag is a part of the game they do definitely need to fix cuz i have played sims 3 for endless amounts of hours and never experienced something like this so its bizzare this happens with the sims 4


    I'm not sure they can fix it, the best they can do is try to reduce it, but some things they have done recently have been the complete opposite, idle animations when your sim gets an environment buff, and the NAPs from Eco Lifestyle that spam autonomous actions for all NPC's are things that will probably add towards simulation lag.

    The best thing you can do is get mods that get rid of unnecessary things like that, or you can get a better computer, but as SimmerGeorge said, it can only do so much with an older game like the sims4.


    i did get a script mod which helped reduce it significantly but i hope they find a way to reduce simulation lag cuz its extremely bad on big save files especially
  • Even with a newer i7, I get simulation lag. Well, maybe I could pitch that I need an i9 for Christmas.

    Joking aside, why did Maxis go with this engine? I mean, yes, I know the story of Olympus, but this seems like a very easily predictable problem, especially since they were catering to low end machines at the start. I guess at least it's not Frostbite.
  • "Felicity;c-17696185" wrote:
    Even with a newer i7, I get simulation lag. Well, maybe I could pitch that I need an i9 for Christmas.

    Joking aside, why did Maxis go with this engine? I mean, yes, I know the story of Olympus, but this seems like a very easily predictable problem, especially since they were catering to low end machines at the start. I guess at least it's not Frostbite.


    It is all about the money as they did not want to spend money on building an engine from scratch, but to thier supporters they made the right move and I feel it was not but heck it is their program and if they wish to gimp an their program they can.

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Simulation Lag. Get A Better Computer?","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:1446462"},"body":"
\"Babykittyjade;c-17691813\" wrote:
I'm a little confused exactly what lag is being referred to here. From personal experience I can say once I upgraded my pc all lag (as in shuddering screen when trying to move around) has been eliminated. And this is with tons upon tons of cc. I can play on a 64x64 3 story cluttered lot with 0 issues. I couldn't with the bad pc.

If you mean the lag that happens where sims stare off into nothing before doing anything you tell them, or stop doing things to stand there then I still have that kind of lag.

But I honestly think most issues people complain about can be solved with a better pc


This is exactly the lag he addresses in the video. I’m glad i watched because I have a more than adequate machine and I have this problem too sometimes and now I think I can mostly avoid it after watching this.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":1,"postTime":"2020-10-18T12:26:13.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2020-10-18T12:26:13.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":0},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"category:the-sims-4-en/category:the-sims-en/category:ea-forums-en/community:tghpe58374board:the-sims-4-general-discussion-en/message:1446451/message:1446462","repliesCount":0,"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"body@stringLength":"909","rawBody":"
\"Babykittyjade;c-17691813\" wrote:
I'm a little confused exactly what lag is being referred to here. From personal experience I can say once I upgraded my pc all lag (as in shuddering screen when trying to move around) has been eliminated. And this is with tons upon tons of cc. I can play on a 64x64 3 story cluttered lot with 0 issues. I couldn't with the bad pc.

If you mean the lag that happens where sims stare off into nothing before doing anything you tell them, or stop doing things to stand there then I still have that kind of lag.

But I honestly think most issues people complain about can be solved with a better pc


This is exactly the lag he addresses in the video. I’m glad i watched because I have a more than adequate machine and I have this problem too sometimes and now I think I can mostly avoid it after watching this.","images":{"__typename":"AssociatedImageConnection","edges":[],"totalCount":0,"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"timeToRead":1,"currentRevision":{"__ref":"Revision:revision:1446462_1"},"latestVersion":null,"messagePolicies":{"__typename":"MessagePolicies","canModerateSpamMessage":{"__typename":"PolicyResult","failureReason":{"__typename":"FailureReason","message":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","key":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","args":[]}}}},"User:user:113186":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:113186","uid":113186,"login":"Hermitgirl","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2014-10-04T08:30:50.000-07:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://forums.ea.com/t5/s/tghpe58374/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-9.svg?time=1721239660000"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:13"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:tghpe58374/user:113186"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:1446463":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:1446463","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:1446463":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:113186"},"id":"message:1446463","revisionNum":1,"uid":1446463,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:the-sims-4-general-discussion-en"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:1446451"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:1446451"},"subject":"Re: Simulation Lag. Get A Better Computer?","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:1446463"},"body":"It's a good video. Basically I already play in ways by choice and preference that helps me avoid most problems... and I have an computer that can run it.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"153","kudosSumWeight":1,"postTime":"2020-10-18T14:29:11.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2020-10-18T14:29:11.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":2},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"category:the-sims-4-en/category:the-sims-en/category:ea-forums-en/community:tghpe58374board:the-sims-4-general-discussion-en/message:1446451/message:1446463","repliesCount":0,"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"body@stringLength":"153","rawBody":"It's a good video. Basically I already play in ways by choice and preference that helps me avoid most problems... and I have an computer that can run it.","images":{"__typename":"AssociatedImageConnection","edges":[],"totalCount":0,"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"timeToRead":1,"currentRevision":{"__ref":"Revision:revision:1446463_1"},"latestVersion":null,"messagePolicies":{"__typename":"MessagePolicies","canModerateSpamMessage":{"__typename":"PolicyResult","failureReason":{"__typename":"FailureReason","message":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","key":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","args":[]}}}},"User:user:204988":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:204988","uid":204988,"login":"voidsims","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2013-05-13T07:39:52.000-07:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://forums.ea.com/t5/s/tghpe58374/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-12.svg?time=1721239731000"},"rank":null,"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:tghpe58374/user:204988"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:1446464":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:1446464","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:1446464":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:204988"},"id":"message:1446464","revisionNum":1,"uid":1446464,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:the-sims-4-general-discussion-en"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:1446451"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:1446451"},"subject":"Re: Simulation Lag. Get A Better Computer?","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:1446464"},"body":"
\"logion;c-17691704\" wrote:
\"adamzaid;c-17691690\" wrote:
i own what i consider to be a very decent gaming pc with a i5 9400f and a gtx 1650 super and i still get simulation lag albeit depending on sitations like which world i am in and how many sims are there but it seems like simulation lag is a part of the game they do definitely need to fix cuz i have played sims 3 for endless amounts of hours and never experienced something like this so its bizzare this happens with the sims 4


I'm not sure they can fix it, the best they can do is try to reduce it, but some things they have done recently have been the complete opposite, idle animations when your sim gets an environment buff, and the NAPs from Eco Lifestyle that spam autonomous actions for all NPC's are things that will probably add towards simulation lag.

The best thing you can do is get mods that get rid of unnecessary things like that, or you can get a better computer, but as SimmerGeorge said, it can only do so much with an older game like the sims4.


i did get a script mod which helped reduce it significantly but i hope they find a way to reduce simulation lag cuz its extremely bad on big save files especially","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"postTime":"2020-10-18T14:50:51.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2020-10-18T14:50:51.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":0},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"category:the-sims-4-en/category:the-sims-en/category:ea-forums-en/community:tghpe58374board:the-sims-4-general-discussion-en/message:1446451/message:1446464","repliesCount":0,"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"body@stringLength":"1278","rawBody":"
\"logion;c-17691704\" wrote:
\"adamzaid;c-17691690\" wrote:
i own what i consider to be a very decent gaming pc with a i5 9400f and a gtx 1650 super and i still get simulation lag albeit depending on sitations like which world i am in and how many sims are there but it seems like simulation lag is a part of the game they do definitely need to fix cuz i have played sims 3 for endless amounts of hours and never experienced something like this so its bizzare this happens with the sims 4


I'm not sure they can fix it, the best they can do is try to reduce it, but some things they have done recently have been the complete opposite, idle animations when your sim gets an environment buff, and the NAPs from Eco Lifestyle that spam autonomous actions for all NPC's are things that will probably add towards simulation lag.

The best thing you can do is get mods that get rid of unnecessary things like that, or you can get a better computer, but as SimmerGeorge said, it can only do so much with an older game like the sims4.


i did get a script mod which helped reduce it significantly but i hope they find a way to reduce simulation lag cuz its extremely bad on big save files especially ","images":{"__typename":"AssociatedImageConnection","edges":[],"totalCount":0,"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"timeToRead":1,"currentRevision":{"__ref":"Revision:revision:1446464_1"},"latestVersion":null,"messagePolicies":{"__typename":"MessagePolicies","canModerateSpamMessage":{"__typename":"PolicyResult","failureReason":{"__typename":"FailureReason","message":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","key":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","args":[]}}}},"User:user:133625":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:133625","uid":133625,"login":"Felicity_Bane","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2011-06-14T04:47:24.000-07:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://forums.ea.com/t5/s/tghpe58374/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-1.svg?time=1721239493000"},"rank":null,"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:tghpe58374/user:133625"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:1446465":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:1446465","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:1446465":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:133625"},"id":"message:1446465","revisionNum":1,"uid":1446465,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:the-sims-4-general-discussion-en"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:1446451"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:1446451"},"subject":"Re: Simulation Lag. Get A Better Computer?","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:1446465"},"body":"Even with a newer i7, I get simulation lag. Well, maybe I could pitch that I need an i9 for Christmas.

Joking aside, why did Maxis go with this engine? I mean, yes, I know the story of Olympus, but this seems like a very easily predictable problem, especially since they were catering to low end machines at the start. I guess at least it's not Frostbite.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"postTime":"2020-10-20T17:32:03.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2020-10-20T17:32:03.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":2},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"category:the-sims-4-en/category:the-sims-en/category:ea-forums-en/community:tghpe58374board:the-sims-4-general-discussion-en/message:1446451/message:1446465","repliesCount":0,"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"body@stringLength":"366","rawBody":"Even with a newer i7, I get simulation lag. Well, maybe I could pitch that I need an i9 for Christmas.

Joking aside, why did Maxis go with this engine? I mean, yes, I know the story of Olympus, but this seems like a very easily predictable problem, especially since they were catering to low end machines at the start. I guess at least it's not Frostbite.","images":{"__typename":"AssociatedImageConnection","edges":[],"totalCount":0,"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"timeToRead":1,"currentRevision":{"__ref":"Revision:revision:1446465_1"},"latestVersion":null,"messagePolicies":{"__typename":"MessagePolicies","canModerateSpamMessage":{"__typename":"PolicyResult","failureReason":{"__typename":"FailureReason","message":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","key":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","args":[]}}}},"User:user:107097":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:107097","uid":107097,"login":"Lonewolf1044","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2009-05-29T01:53:32.000-07:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://eaavatarservice.akamaized.net/production/avatar/prod/6/96/416x416.JPEG"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:13"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:tghpe58374/user:107097"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:1446466":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:1446466","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:1446466":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:107097"},"id":"message:1446466","revisionNum":1,"uid":1446466,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:the-sims-4-general-discussion-en"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:1446451"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:1446451"},"subject":"Re: Simulation Lag. Get A Better Computer?","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:1446466"},"body":"
\"Felicity;c-17696185\" wrote:
Even with a newer i7, I get simulation lag. Well, maybe I could pitch that I need an i9 for Christmas.

Joking aside, why did Maxis go with this engine? I mean, yes, I know the story of Olympus, but this seems like a very easily predictable problem, especially since they were catering to low end machines at the start. I guess at least it's not Frostbite.


It is all about the money as they did not want to spend money on building an engine from scratch, but to thier supporters they made the right move and I feel it was not but heck it is their program and if they wish to gimp an their program they can.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"postTime":"2020-10-21T17:44:51.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2020-10-21T17:44:51.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":1},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"category:the-sims-4-en/category:the-sims-en/category:ea-forums-en/community:tghpe58374board:the-sims-4-general-discussion-en/message:1446451/message:1446466","repliesCount":0,"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"body@stringLength":"686","rawBody":"
\"Felicity;c-17696185\" wrote:
Even with a newer i7, I get simulation lag. Well, maybe I could pitch that I need an i9 for Christmas.

Joking aside, why did Maxis go with this engine? I mean, yes, I know the story of Olympus, but this seems like a very easily predictable problem, especially since they were catering to low end machines at the start. I guess at least it's not Frostbite.


It is all about the money as they did not want to spend money on building an engine from scratch, but to thier supporters they made the right move and I feel it was not but heck it is their program and if they wish to gimp an their program they can.","images":{"__typename":"AssociatedImageConnection","edges":[],"totalCount":0,"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"timeToRead":1,"currentRevision":{"__ref":"Revision:revision:1446466_1"},"latestVersion":null,"messagePolicies":{"__typename":"MessagePolicies","canModerateSpamMessage":{"__typename":"PolicyResult","failureReason":{"__typename":"FailureReason","message":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","key":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","args":[]}}}},"CachedAsset:text:en_US-components/messages/EscalatedMessageBanner-1742916204000":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"text:en_US-components/messages/EscalatedMessageBanner-1742916204000","value":{"escalationMessage":"Escalated to Salesforce by {username} on {date}","viewDetails":"View Details","modalTitle":"Case Details","escalatedBy":"Escalated by: ","escalatedOn":"Escalated on: ","caseNumber":"Case Number: ","status":"Status: ","lastUpdateDate":"Last Update: ","automaticEscalation":"automatic escalation","anonymous":"Anonymous"},"localOverride":false},"CachedAsset:text:en_US-components/users/UserLink-1742916204000":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"text:en_US-components/users/UserLink-1742916204000","value":{"authorName":"View Profile: {author}","anonymous":"Anonymous"},"localOverride":false},"CachedAsset:text:en_US-shared/client/components/users/UserRank-1742916204000":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"text:en_US-shared/client/components/users/UserRank-1742916204000","value":{"rankName":"{rankName}","userRank":"Author rank {rankName}"},"localOverride":false},"CachedAsset:text:en_US-components/messages/MessageTime-1742916204000":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"text:en_US-components/messages/MessageTime-1742916204000","value":{"postTime":"Published: {time}","lastPublishTime":"Last Update: {time}","conversation.lastPostingActivityTime":"Last posting activity time: {time}","conversation.lastPostTime":"Last post time: {time}","moderationData.rejectTime":"Rejected time: {time}"},"localOverride":false},"CachedAsset:text:en_US-components/messages/MessageSolvedBadge-1742916204000":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"text:en_US-components/messages/MessageSolvedBadge-1742916204000","value":{"solved":"Solved"},"localOverride":false},"CachedAsset:text:en_US-components/messages/MessageSubject-1742916204000":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"text:en_US-components/messages/MessageSubject-1742916204000","value":{"noSubject":"(no subject)"},"localOverride":false},"CachedAsset:text:en_US-components/messages/MessageBody-1742916204000":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"text:en_US-components/messages/MessageBody-1742916204000","value":{"showMessageBody":"Show More","mentionsErrorTitle":"{mentionsType, select, board {Board} user {User} message {Message} other {}} No Longer Available","mentionsErrorMessage":"The {mentionsType} you are trying to view has been removed from the community.","videoProcessing":"Video is being processed. 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