Re: Hybrid implementation (Regen and boost) is incorrect and bugged in several ways

Quick Summary after the new patch and some driving:

1. Cautious setting 70% throttle threshold is way too low to allow control/drive out of corners without Boost.   (either engines need more power down there, or increase this to 90% or 95%)
2. Boost is 1 or 0, should be linear increase  after throttle threshold to WOT
3. Max Throttle is now 10% for regen to be active, should be 30% as per regs.
4. Regen should be active under VERY low front brake pressure, 5BAR = about 75PSI (out of 800+).  Currently seems to be a much higher threshold.
5. Handbrake seems to kill boost, so entering a HP, you regen under braking, use HB to turn in, and you lost your boost event!
6. Boost kicking in and running out should have a smooth transition.

You can pretty well observe the result of the above 6, EVEN with 50% balanced threshold setting, only 2 or 3 boost events total in this ~17 minute stage  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw_UqAISZlI

I'm glad I'm not the only one unhappy with the hybrid implementation. It honestly ruins the Rally 1 cars in the game for me. I'm hopeful that EA will fix it though. If you want a good reference for how hybrid boost should be implemented, just play WRC Generations. They did a great job capturing the rules and how real Rally 1 cars use boost and regen.

I agree with all the above points. Here are my list of my requests and complaints (some are a copy from earlier comments):

- Boost should be linear increase after throttle threshold to WOT

- Throttle should only need to be below 30% with 5BAR brake pressure (basically resting your foot on the brake pedal) to get regen

- Handbrake shouldn't have any impact on boost or valid regen 

- You only lose your built-up boost if you start to regen. Just lifting off the throttle without pressing the brake pedal will not make you lose boost. The real Rally 1 cars don't always regen when they push the brake pedal to prevent losing boost. WRC Generations does a great job of capturing this. If you have a lot of boost remaining, lightly pressing the brake pedal will not regen so you don't lose boost if you get back on the accel pedal. Heavily pushing the brake pedal will start regen because the assumption is that you are slowing down a lot for a corner and will be able to easily get enough regen energy to unlock new boost. If you have used up half of your boost, both light brake pedal and heavy brake pedal will start regen (losing your remaining partial boost in hopes to get a full boost). This is very accurate and should be brought into EA WRC.

- The different levels of boost should not adjust the accel pedal position at which hybrid boost starts. That is not how real Rally 1 cars work and it doesn't make sense. The pedal position at which you start to ramp in hybrid boost should always be 70% (or even adjustable by the user!). The boost aggressiveness setting should adjust how much hybrid boost power you ramp up to at WOT in each gear. You always have a fixed maximum about of boost energy based on the stage length and surface type. If you are in the aggressive setting, you will use a maximum hybrid boost power to get max acceleration until you use up your energy (this is a short time because high power uses energy faster). If you are on a cautious setting, you will use a lower amount of boost power at WOT (to reduce acceleration and wheelspin), but you get hybrid boost for a longer amount of time because it will take longer to deplete your energy at lower power. This is how real rally cars use the different hybrid boost settings. 

Handbrake disabling the boost is conformant to the regulation, I believe.

I don't quite understand why the regulation says 30% throttle is allowed, and the game says 10% (after patch). Did the regulation change?

I agree that the car is very difficult to drive while staying under that 70% throttle mark, it feels like the throttle doesn't work linearly, i.e. the first half of throttle movement isn't very effective and the car only accelerates properly above the 70% throttle mark.

Maybe it's a problem with the pedals (and triggers) used for gaming behaving differently from a real rally car's throttle pedal.

@Codemasters: Please test this with

a) a cheap Logitech pedal set

b) a gamepad's trigger

and see if it's behaving as intended?

Perhaps they're testing with some super expensive simracing gear, which most players probably don't have.

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@megastug wrote:

Handbrake disabling the boost is conformant to the regulation, I believe.

I don't quite understand why the regulation says 30% throttle is allowed, and the game says 10% (after patch). Did the regulation change?

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Why do you believe that on the handbrake, it's not in the FIA PDF.

The regulation has not changed on 30%, that is in the PDF and in 2023 WRC footage.

It is in the pdf. Specifically, in the valid regen, it says

The handbrake can be used as an input to disable hybrid
torque.

I attached an image with that section highlight

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@EvolutionXJ wrote:

It is in the pdf. Specifically, in the valid regen, it says

The handbrake can be used as an input to disable hybrid
torque.

I attached an image with that section highlight

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That's misinterpretation.  That is under the regen section, so it is talking about braking torque of the hybrid motor.   And also it says "CAN".  This is very specific wording in regulations, even those by the FIA, it would be optional for a team.

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@bn880 wrote:

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@EvolutionXJ wrote:

It is in the pdf. Specifically, in the valid regen, it says

The handbrake can be used as an input to disable hybrid
torque.

I attached an image with that section highlight

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That's misinterpretation.  That is under the regen section, so it is talking about braking torque of the hybrid motor.   And also it says "CAN".  This is very specific wording in regulations, even those by the FIA, it would be optional for a team.

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You are correct. The handbrake doesn't have anything to do with losing earned boost or valid regen. However, teams could design their cars to stop commanding torque from the hybrid system when the hand brake is pulled. It isn't required, but some teams or drivers may want to do that to make the cars easier to drive. The FIA rules specify exactly which sensors and inputs teams are allowed to use to determine how much torque is output from the hybrid system's electric motor. This section is there to say that a team is able to use handbrake as an input to their software that determines hybrid torque command if they want to.

With that in mind, Codemasters can choose their hybrid implementation to stop commanding hybrid boost and regen with the handbrake is pulled if they want to. Most people don't pull the handbrake with the accelerator pedal over 70% anyway. But pulling the handbrake should not make you lose remaining boost energy or have an impact on valid regen. 

Bumping this because Hybrid in this game is a nightmare.

I tried yesterday the WRC1 cars after watching the Japan Rally, but the implementation of boost and regen is buggy and not conform to regulation.

The joke to note in the patch notes that Devs have changed to 10% braking power allowed for regen if the real regulation says 30% is unbelievable.

I've already added the link to the official FIA PDF regulation document for 2023. 

The Devs could also watch a onboard stage to see that the boost is available in nearly each corner because of the fast regen with low brake pressure and not how it's it's implemented in the game.

Hey there,

Thank you all for your report and your feedback. This issue has been raised and it is being investigated by the Game Team. I will update you on this thread as soon as I have more info.

-Groguet

Hurray!

Awesome! Great news!

Yesssss!!!!!!!!!!!

I noticed the following fix listed in the 1.4.0 patch notes coming out on the 14th:

"Fixed an issue on WRC cars in which hybrid deployment would cancel when throttle was released below boost threshold point, instead of when throttle input reaches 0%."

This is an improvement and I am thankful for it, but it is still incorrect. Hybrid deployment should only be cancelled when you start to regen, not just because you lifted off the throttle pedal. The simplest implementation of this would be to always regen when FIA conditions allow for it: throttle input is less than 30% "and" the brake pedal is applied (front brake pressure over 5BAR, which is very little). Even this isn't completely accurate because real teams don't have to regen when the brake pedal is applied, so you can technically lift off the accelerator pedal and press the brake pedal in a real car and not cancel your hybrid deployment sometimes as long as your ECU software didn't start to regen. This is maybe a little advanced for this game, but WRC Generations has this modeled and you have to brake harder to start regen when you have a lot of your hybrid boost remaining. Even with the simple implementation where you always regen when accelerator input is less than 30% and brake pedal is applied, you should still be able to use some of your hybrid deployment, lift completely off the accelerator pedal, then go back and use more hybrid deployment as long as you don't press the brake pedal while you are lifted off the accelerator pedal. The exception to this is for the initial launch hybrid boost, which will get cancelled when accelerator pedal is less than 30% or the brake pedal is applied whether you regen or not.

Yes indeed, there remain many issues with it.  Not the least is control of boost level past the 70%, the gutted engines below 70% throttle (so you can delay deployment)

the amount of brake pressure required to even start regen in the game, and so on.  The points are on the first page.

This should be fixed/implemented to just work as close to the real thing as possible, It's not really some massive and super expensive challenge, and there should be some authenticity to the driving.

New bug with it since 1.4:  https://answers.ea.com/t5/Bug-Reports/In-Progress-boost-event-is-not-paused-below-throttle-boost/td-p/13318118

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@EA_Groguet wrote:

Hey there,

Thank you all for your report and your feedback. This issue has been raised and it is being investigated by the Game Team. I will update you on this thread as soon as I have more info.

-Groguet

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Please also fix the problem where sequential transmission cars have some bizarre clutch behaviour (for launch) that seems to be muddled together with the wrong implementation of how the hybrid cars should work.

The manual transmission/H-pattern cars have no fundamental programming error--they just suffer from the game-wide poor implementation of dead zones, saturation and controller calibration.