Aim Assist

they don't remove just because console players are way more than PC players and it's probably more convenient to make them happy. And yes, it is big deal...also pro players complain about it. Just watch some streaming, like Nicewigg for example....come on it's embarrassing for people like him losing a close-range fight it's just impossible.

@Blessthefall05I kinda want to turn it off just to experiment but I’m not sure if you can on pc, I usually practice aiming on my random teammates in game and hit most of my shots but that’s mainly just messing around with a wingman and speaking of wingman... if you go into the cfg file or use the command line +reticle_color “-5 -5 -5” or something like that its amazing on the wingman because it removes the red circle 

Hi,

Counter point here: You aren't as good as you think you are and blame your inability on a controller aim assist boogieman. 

@sixcloudInteresting and stupid point, or maybe since like 80% of mnk pro´s are against aimassist they all are just not as good as they think right?

They should just l2p allrdy so they can overcome an automation in a competetion, like playing vs a cheater and when you complain someone says just get gud...

@sixcloudvery extreme and general comment indeed.

Sure people should be able to gauge their performance objectively and see situations where another player is just better. Agreed.

At the same time, we can't neglect all of the feedback about aim assist and other Apex "helpers" due to a potential inability of doing above said given:

- usual complaints about aim assist come when you suddenly get owned by players in whatever rank and after spectate them and see that they have no game sense, sub-par movement etc. etc. and the only thing they really excel in is pointing and shooting in close range.
Like they would be gold or silver in other skills but a predator in shooting that say averages out via them being in diamond or master level...which is kinda weird, unfair in my opinion.

Here is an example from one game I managed to spectate and record due I was playing - this was not the only case he did something like that, on other occasions I was just alive and not able to spectate but our teammate called him out on amazing recoil control and super precise aiming as well. Comment from the player "I train a lot": https://youtu.be/XWfeODhunvU

You be the judge.

- people keep frying, lasering, having no recoil on any gun etc., yet no one can explain how is that possible besides general phrases like "train more" or "learn the recoil"...yet hardly ever does that, people keep just rolling the games and some people seem to be natural-born talents - account level <100, perfect aim and recoil control, excuse that they have 10000h in other FPS games and what else not... hard to believe that in a game that does not have anti-cheat + has in-built aim assist 🙂

Idk is it my life experience (not only FPS game wise) but if I see something that seems too good to be true I request clear proof how to replicate that or I just call it bs.

E.g. in Apex I have been around for almost a year now, I have played all legends, all guns, spent some time in firing range trying to master recoil, jitter aim and what not, talked with multiple hackers in game who were brave enough to admit hacking and share their insights...yet my aim is pretty much the same as before - I started Apex ranked by getting to Diamond in my 3rd split with ~400 damage average and 0.5 k/d, now after being there each consecutive split my damage is still below 500 on average and k/d is 0.6 even though I have much better game read than most player I play with and most of the time I IGL or call out cases when we will (and eventually do) lose fights due to bad decision making, positioning.
Take those "better players" and their stats are just double if not more out of the gate... makes me wonder.

@SolitaryMassacreBecause it only effects them? and calling someone that has outside help better than someone that does not is kinda questionable... And why exactly would people like even shroud that do not touch the game competetively speak against it? Maybe its just his opinion as a competetive player ?

why would controllerplayers be against it?what is their gain from that?If they would get it removed it would harm their own carrier. imagine a cheater wanting his cheat to get removed lol

Btw snipedown was against AA and called it pretty much unfair

You are wasting your time arguing with willingly ignorant people. We all should turn off our aa to please them even though we never even asked to play with them. Yeah makes perfect sense 😉

I rarely see pc folk in my lobbies and when I played pc rarely saw console folks in those. Seems more like people not being able to admit to themselves that they got out played as it hurts their ego's, even the pros can't admit it. I've never seen a thread on here about a controller player complaining about m+k being superior, it's just how it is and they accepted it. Yet there's a lot of entitlement going around these days on the other end... Also, Apex is probably the worst game to showcase "skill" given the sheer amount of problems it has to begin with, so if skill is to be taken so seriously people shouldn't be playing this at all. 

@Sand_spitter  / @I-4m_-_m4c 

Personally my comments regarding this topic it not about AA being OP or MNK being trash etc.

My points are:

1. this latest study clearly backs up the fact that controller players are way superior in close-range fights. Meaning that if what both say is true it would make an absolute majority of controller players somehow gods of aim (given AA based on your feedback does nothing) in close range but suck in mid and long. Or maybe it is the AA effect after all?

2. given all these discussions there is no need to debate a thing which can't be really proven, long story short - MNK players don't like controller ones, controller ones don't need MNK in their lobbies because most players play on console => disable cross-play, end of story.

@Sand_spitterthere is actually no way you can tell (as far as I know) in PC lobbies what input does a player use unless you see player's stream/binds. Icons per player change to controller icon only for PS and XBOX players, yet PC player with Controller and 40% or whatever AA still shows as PC player. So your assumption/experience regarding lobbies are at least partially incorrect.

I personally see console players quite often, especially in Diamond+ lobbies as well as I can already tell by a play style when I face a controller player in game - instant change from "omg I can't hit anything from 50+ m" to "F it I am going in and one magging you right away or hitting your with Wingman/Eva in 3 shots". Works every time.

p.s. I have played with people who have done both controller and MNK and at least ones in Diamond+ lobbies in like 90% of the cases said that:
a) AA is really helpful close range and they did abuse it

b) they on average hit at least 1 tier higher with controller t.i. being Masters on controller while being <D1 on MNK or being Preds on controller (like past 2-3 seasons not from season 3 when there were like 3000 Preds or what not) and now barely making past 10k RP

c) most said that they switched to MNK because controller was to easy yet they want to improve and they know that potentially MNK overall can give them even better level of skill <- my point made in other topics why I don't like AA and cross-play because AA can make a decent player out of a bad one in an instance.

@Sand_spitter

1. not sure about the kill feed, from what I see usually it mentions just nick who knocked/killed and the person who is down, maybe I have really just MNK lobbies or not enabled some cooler, more informative kill feed.
If you mean death recap screen - still the same applies = there is no way to see PC+controller players, icon for them is the same as for PC + MNK players.

2. Regarding controller being better up close / MNK superior overall

First of all, if you see regular gameplay absolute majority of fights finish in a close range, at least in higher-ranked lobbies. Default tactics are well known - laser one dude, push remaining ones or ideally get a knock and push 2v3 to finish.
Exceptions here - wingman, longbow, charge shots, nades, Gibi/Bang/Fuse ults. Yet more often than not these do not wipe squads 1-2 players most.
So yeah the big deal about the controller being superior close range especially in the mentioned ratio of 2:1 is that controller players have an upper hand where it matters the most - finishing fights. You can view it like MNK will get more knocks assuming from the distance yet fewer kills because of the disadvantage in finishing a fight. That is also my experience mentioned earlier where a player transforms instantly from "omg I can't hit 2 consecutive shots" to "here is one mag r99 for you or 3 shot eva/wingman/mastiff/99+ Peacekeeper shots in a row".

Second, the biggest difference between controller vs mouse is the fact that controller (cursor) movement is linear, while with one mouse you can be more versitile, more accurate, fine tune-input precision better due to settings like dpi, mouse accel, changing size and quality of the mouse mat not to mention mouse itself.
Yeah, agreed.
YET in reality what all these variables do to the average player? Give him/her headaches on how to fine-tune their inputs, make them consistent.
People don't talk much about mice being superior because the majority haven't mastered mouse control and probably never will.
E.g. I used to play Quake 3 with a ball! mouse and then switched to Logitech dual optical (at time one of if not the best mouse), my accuracy in-game more than doubled over night - no joke, my average hit % was about 20-25 and I started shooting over 40% the next day.
Now (03.2021) I started playing Apex with the same mouse (yeah I am not upgrading frequently) did reach Plat in my first rank split, bought a new table (height adjustable), g pro superlight, gaming keyboard - reached D4 which in my opinion I would do anyway with the old setup because my aim in Apex is still quite trash, most gain here was just game awareness and learning recoil control, playing guns I feel more comfortable with.

@Sand_spitter 

The icon in your screenshot is the one I see and talked about in relation to Console players. But a player who uses A Controller on A PC shows up as the second icon in your screenshot = just a PC. Thus my point about the inability to distinguish how many PC lobby players actually are on controllers unless you see their binds in-game e.g. via streams.

Regarding aiming - you and many before you go into extremes after I make a point how a controller and in turn AA influences a player's ability.

Your and alike arguments go right into the territory of putting in a ton of work and being constantly good. E.g. you are talking about 2 years, game based on google came out in 2019 = 2 years in it means that you were there from the start and constantly played the game.

Most of the players I am talking about have been playing the game a fraction of that or they just smurf because more often than not they are <500 level profiles meaning they are at it for <3-4 months, yet they still perform.

Also, I am not trying to diminish someone's skill, my point was that if you put in work like you or @E9ine_AC say you can achieve great results and I agree. But again we are talking about 2000+h in the game if not even closer to 10000h combined in multiple FPS, aim trainers, etc. Again most of the community of Apex I bet are below a fraction of that yet they still can do some of the stuff you can after 2 years.

Thus my point that a controller = AA can make a player's skill leapfrog in an instant similar to my experience of upgrading from my ball mouse to laser one.

And all this discussion is not about who is superior, who can aim better. No. This discussion is about software assist called Aim assist that works, that allows significant assistance in an environment where we have 100 mil player base who can easily hide their stats, be basically unidentifiable if they wish so leaving the rest wonder is this some pro player hiding/transferring from another game or some dude with 10000h in FPS games with perfect mouse control, or is this some kid abusing AA.

To avoid such a negative vibe the suggestion is to just enable cross-play as an option as long as the game can also distinguish between PC players with controllers and add them to the same pool of players who do play on console, so that people with MNK on PC can choose to play or not to play vs players who have the benefit of AA and stop questioning, posting here if they run into a better play and/or opted for playing vs AA players on controllers.

To conclude I would say to stop comparing d#$@, not comparable input methods, and focus on the player's experience via enabling what seems an easy option in-game. End of story.

@E9ine_ACrhetorical question - how would you feel after doing what you did and running into a 10-year-old kid who plays the game for say 2 months and just sprays you with r99 close range thanks to some skill gained during this period of time and AA?

Or unrelated to AA but still on the same vibe of Apex - how would you feel about running into an MNK player who has done no training whatsoever and just uses a no-recoil script (potentially in combination with soft-bot) and fries you in any distance similar to what we see in pro streamer streams?

Wouldn't you feel like you have wasted a lot of time or at least somewhat sad that you did it the hard way - good for you of course - yet when it comes to comparing results in Apex yours are no better than above mentioned two cases?

-----

A short story of my life. Back in 2000s when I played Quake there was an active community of ~100 players give or take, it was instagib mode = 1 shot 1 kill, in Apex terms = everyone running around with Krabers that do 395 damage no matter where you hit an enemy. Reload time actually was similar.
In this community, I knew 2 clans that were just superior, day in and day out they just destroyed anyone on any day with any team composition in any map in any gameplay be it 1v1, 2v2, 4v4 or 6v6. Undisputed superiority.
On some days I felt worthy, on their level, but really only on some days when I was on fire, lucky with my shots, guesses when pre-firing. On most days I just felt good that ok I can't be on their level yet I can play well vs the rest and say have a 50/50 chance with the most, in some cases constantly be better than the lesser part of the community.

Fast forward to Apex Diamond lobbies - as soon as I see a person charging towards me or firing wingman I know that I am going down being one magged or 3shotted by Eva, Mastif, Wingman, and in most cases I do.
Ok Apex is not 100 player community, I have been around only since 03.2021 yet have cranked almost 2000h in ranked only and most of those in Diamond lobbies, I have watched streams, trainings, constantly record my games and review them, IGL in game which works out well most of the time - indicating that I have at least above average game awareness. Yet I still get down every time I see a player charging towards me or using Wingman.

It just feels like I am the only one in the community who can't hit shots especially with Wingman, the only one using long-range weapons in the game, unable to 1 mag player constantly in-game while doing that with ease in the firing range without any attachments with any gun...

I have no problem losing, it just feels weird that I get that side of the coin 90 times out of 100 and even vs lesser players - platinum and below ranked, players who are sub-level 100, 200, 300...

But that's my story.

I'm not sure it does as I can't test it cause I don't have it on PC anymore. To my knowledge pc with mouse is pc icon, pc with controller is controller icon and console is PS icon, at least for Playstation. But I'll take your word for it. I still didn't see many controller icons when I played pc mouse and pc icons when I played console. 🤷

Regarding aim, again, they might perform, but judging from what I've seen playing with and against controller players thousands of times is that at best most of them are consistently inconsistent. Some games are good, most are bad. There is also carry over from other games just like with a mouse if you can figure out the correct sensitivity settings. Also a 10yo that's played with one since he started playing games is hardly gonna be a noob. I find it hard to believe that pc players still can't hit their shots if they've put in so much effort. Is it any surprise their losing games? If not to a controller, then certainly against other pc players. So there's no difference, they would've lost either way 🤷

@E9ine_AC is probably one of the best players on this forum. If him and I were to 1v1 I bet he would win 10/10 times easily against me and my aa controller. If he could sort out his aim so can everyone else. He did the work. Controller don't mean nothing to him and I've never seen him complain about it before. 

My only point of the whole discussion is that the 1.mixed lobbies aren't as bad as people say. 

2.And aa does not make people so much better like some think.

Does it help? Sure. Is it unfair? I don't think so given the fast nature of the game and the fact that mouse has many more advantages. All aa is attempting is to level the playing field a bit between the two inputs as

mouse > controller. 

Personally, I could try without it and prob succeed but I just don't care enough to re-learn aim from scratch as disabling it throws off all your sensitivities. We never wanted mixed lobbies so why should I do that to keep ~5% of people happy who want it there or the people complaining about my choice of input? We could just say it isn't fair to anyone and disable cross play, end. There's no need for people to even defend themselves here, it's an exceedingly pointless discussion really. 🙂 

Appreciate your pov, at least I can tell you gave it some real thought. 🙂