@Karsot Yeah, cool story bro. You said it's a competitive game first. Do you know ANY kind of competitive game where complete beginners and champions and all the raffle in the middle are thrown into the same pool of players? Any? Why do we have different divisions in every single sport? Just have everyone play against everyone, some middle school football team against the patriots and some 40 year old dads who only do it in their free time against the Eagles, git gud scrubs lol. I'm sure they'll get better by getting completely destroyed with no chance of any tactics they might have to actually work because of the sheer difference in skill.
You can use cover and pick your fights as much as you want, at some point the ring is tiny, there's barely any cover left and then the team of people who have played shooters since Unreal came out and killed half the server by themselves and got all the loot will go in raw with no lube against the team that picked their fights, that's fact. And you think that's okay because "it's BR, you're not gonna win every game lol". And everyone knows there's nothing better for improving your skill in a SHOOTING GAME than dying in 2 seconds and barely being able to shoot in any given round. If in an hour of playing you have 30 seconds of shooting, how much better do you expect to become at shooting?
The way it is now, the average player will win no games at all unless he has luck with the other players in the round not including someone with ridiculous K/D. Which is almost never. I could start counting how often "introducing your champion" doesn't have a team of people with more kills than my team combined. There won't be much to count. And even if it is a team with no such person, you don't know who the champion was teamed up with last game if they're not a full squad. You have a better chance of winning by playing alone and hoping you get a random who is ridiculously good in your team than by trying to get better, and how long do you think those normal players will want to try and improve if it never bares fruit? Another few weeks? How many of the 25M players will be left do you think? How many have already left?
This is a game not a sport. All BR games are competitive and do not have divisions.
PUBG has a rating system that is not skill based MM either. Just approximation to the rating of the current squad leader. In other words, a noob can be appointed leader of a squad and you will be fighting against noobs even if you are Shroud.
Moving on now. If you die in 2 seconds then you are obviously doing something wrong. Check were you land, learn to hear what is going on around you and learn the areas that offer better quality loot as well as flank areas. On top of that maybe learn how shoot in the practice range ,since we have one and you can practice at different ranges will all weapons, with both static and moving targets. People that have been playing FPS games and BR games longer than you will beat you up always, until you get on their level.
People that have better degrees than you get a better paying job than you and drive a more expensive car than you. This is how everything in life works. Get better and you can beat them.
Also let's assume that they indeed implement that. The top palyers will have to wait for a very long time to get into a match. The low skill players will also have to wait a long time and the only players that will be able to find matches fast are the mediocre players. Why? Because bell curve and math.
On top of that what about trolls and throwers? Let's assume we found a solution for all of the above problems. This is a team game if we put together players we expect them to work together. Now if your team is bad it was 0 effect on you. You just queue up for next game and hope to do better. If you get trolls thought and we implement your moronic suggestions and you lose you will lose rating. Eventually you might drop division or even get trapped at the lowest ranks where people will 100% troll.
Now do you get why this is not going to be implemented in a BR game?
@Karsot
1)
"Queues will be too long" -> BS. 25 million players there will ALWAYS be people to play against regardless of your rank. That's like saying bronze players and challenger players in LoL have ridiculously long queues and fight always against the same people. False.
2)
"smurfing issue" is a non argument as well. Look at F2P games such as LoL. Smurfing is a thing yes but it's FAR from being a significant issue. After a couple of rounds, his "rank" will push him to play against people of his similar skill lvl so even if he's lvl 5, if he plays like shroud, he will be put against players as good as him.
3)
One minute you say it's a game, not a sport and then later compare the game to IRL, jobs and salary. Your arguments make no sense and sometimes even go against one another. People that play games casually will not want to play against sweaty nolifers or 12h/day streamers. It's not a sport, competition nor a job for them, they simply want a fair and balanced game.
4)Trolls and throwers will happen regardless of if there's a ranking/matchmaking system or not. If you get a troll you can simply leave the game and start a new one.
5)
Being stuck in "ELO" hell isn't a thing, it's an excuse. You also can always play with (good) friends and win rounds after rounds if you are "stuck" in a skill tier so low that it's only trolls and throwers. News flash, it won't be a thing.
P.S.: If you want to be taken seriously and not as a joke/troll, stop being so immature that you call people that disagree with you "OW kids". It makes you lose all the credibility you had to begin with even though it was already quite low.
1) 25M players yet there is one dizzy and one shroud. Did not see anyone else around that level. Pretty certain you need more than 2 players for the match to happen.
2) Smurf issue is a huge issue. Currently has destroyed OW and a ton of other games that have not implemented double verification system. The only game that has no problem with it is CSGO exactly because it uses double verification method that ties the account to a cellphone number.
3) It is a game. It is a job. Very clear arguments. No matter how much you cry better people than you will be better until you manage to become better than them.
4) Trolls and throwers happen but right not DO NOT AFFECT YOUR RATING. It is a very clear concept to grab.
5) ELO hell is a thing that is why people in OW have 3-4 accounts each so that they can boost one account to top. If you want you can have a go at those forums and have a read. Why? Because it is a team game hence your team might bring you down. Also you are saying ELO hell does not exist with a straight face? Pretty certain Tyler1 was stuck for 2 seasons in ELO hell in LOL and timthetatman was stuck in below 4k ratinf in OW season 2 (later he went full premade team and they boosted him). DOTA does not have ELO hell because they have the best current working algorythm that takes into account individual skill more than other algorythms currently used in the industry. But in DOTA2 you can solo carry and win. In here it is very tough to do that unless you are extremely skilled.
The logical leaps you have to make to justify you wanting your easy games against noobs are hilarious.
@Karsot wrote:This is a game not a sport. All BR games are competitive and do not have divisions.
PUBG has a rating system that is not skill based MM either. Just approximation to the rating of the current squad leader. In other words, a noob can be appointed leader of a squad and you will be fighting against noobs even if you are Shroud.
Moving on now. If you die in 2 seconds then you are obviously doing something wrong. Check were you land, learn to hear what is going on around you and learn the areas that offer better quality loot as well as flank areas. On top of that maybe learn how shoot in the practice range ,since we have one and you can practice at different ranges will all weapons, with both static and moving targets. People that have been playing FPS games and BR games longer than you will beat you up always, until you get on their level.
People that have better degrees than you get a better paying job than you and drive a more expensive car than you. This is how everything in life works. Get better and you can beat them.
Also let's assume that they indeed implement that. The top palyers will have to wait for a very long time to get into a match. The low skill players will also have to wait a long time and the only players that will be able to find matches fast are the mediocre players. Why? Because bell curve and math.
On top of that what about trolls and throwers? Let's assume we found a solution for all of the above problems. This is a team game if we put together players we expect them to work together. Now if your team is bad it was 0 effect on you. You just queue up for next game and hope to do better. If you get trolls thought and we implement your moronic suggestions and you lose you will lose rating. Eventually you might drop division or even get trapped at the lowest ranks where people will 100% troll.
Now do you get why this is not going to be implemented in a BR game?
LMAO, I didn't read past the first lines. first of all, Their FAQ says https://pubg.gamepedia.com/Frequently_Asked_Questions_(FAQ) the method they use is an ELO, not a rating based on any stats. And the exact method they use is secret "alot of is behind closed doors".
So what research have you done bud? Because only people that work for the company know exactly how they match players. Now I have never played PUBG. But I do know people that have that have told me after they implemented their form of MMR< they were never grouped with people on the lvl of DrDisrespect as an avg or below avg player again. The matches got more competitive in their opinion.
Also the game has a solo queue to even better rank players. Furthermore, after many games played a players ELO averages out. Not only that, Even if it is based on squad leader as you say it is, then so what? That squad leader is put in a squad of people, and a server with similar MMR.
So again, TLDR...
Also it seems PUBG did a real lazy mmr, and even that was helpful. I think respawn could do an even better job then pubg did because their matchmaker in titanfall 2 is exceptional. They could take all stats into account. But of course this would cost money and hiring the right people to be done right. Too bad gaim theory went out of business cause noone ever takes this stuff serious enough.
But anything is better then nothing.
@RichAC wrote:Also it seems PUBG did a real lazy mmr, and even that was helpful. I think respawn could do an even better job then pubg did because their matchmaker in titanfall 2 is exceptional. They could take all stats into account. But of course this would cost money and hiring the right people to be done right. Too bad gaim theory went out of business cause noone ever takes this stuff serious enough.
But anything is better then nothing.
Titanfall, just like any other game with a pure focus on combat, does not have Battle Royale's duality problem. In a game that is purely about fighting it is very simple to match people by their fragging performance.
@RichAC wrote:
@Karsot wrote:This is a game not a sport. All BR games are competitive and do not have divisions.
PUBG has a rating system that is not skill based MM either. Just approximation to the rating of the current squad leader. In other words, a noob can be appointed leader of a squad and you will be fighting against noobs even if you are Shroud.
Moving on now. If you die in 2 seconds then you are obviously doing something wrong. Check were you land, learn to hear what is going on around you and learn the areas that offer better quality loot as well as flank areas. On top of that maybe learn how shoot in the practice range ,since we have one and you can practice at different ranges will all weapons, with both static and moving targets. People that have been playing FPS games and BR games longer than you will beat you up always, until you get on their level.
People that have better degrees than you get a better paying job than you and drive a more expensive car than you. This is how everything in life works. Get better and you can beat them.
Also let's assume that they indeed implement that. The top palyers will have to wait for a very long time to get into a match. The low skill players will also have to wait a long time and the only players that will be able to find matches fast are the mediocre players. Why? Because bell curve and math.
On top of that what about trolls and throwers? Let's assume we found a solution for all of the above problems. This is a team game if we put together players we expect them to work together. Now if your team is bad it was 0 effect on you. You just queue up for next game and hope to do better. If you get trolls thought and we implement your moronic suggestions and you lose you will lose rating. Eventually you might drop division or even get trapped at the lowest ranks where people will 100% troll.
Now do you get why this is not going to be implemented in a BR game?
LMAO, I didn't read past the first lines. first of all, Their FAQ says https://pubg.gamepedia.com/Frequently_Asked_Questions_(FAQ) the method they use is an ELO, not a rating based on any stats. And the exact method they use is secret "alot of is behind closed doors".
So what research have you done bud? Because only people that work for the company know exactly how they match players. Now I have never played PUBG. But I do know people that have that have told me after they implemented their form of MMR< they were never grouped with people on the lvl of DrDisrespect as an avg or below avg player again. The matches got more competitive in their opinion.
Also the game has a solo queue to even better rank players. Furthermore, after many games played a players ELO averages out. Not only that, Even if it is based on squad leader as you say it is, then so what? That squad leader is put in a squad of people, and a server with similar MMR.
So again, TLDR...
That FAQ is outdated. First, every one of six modes had their own separate ELOs (solo, duo, squad in TPP and FPP), as they should. Having a solo mode does not help, it's the opposite. All regions also had separate ELOs as well. Maps however, did not have separate ELOs, even though they totally should have as map knowledge is an extremely big part of player skill in PUBG.
In my experience, MMR only made a noticeable difference in the early days when there were a lot of new players. Back then I would get a pretty wild easy mode any time a season restarts and ELOs are reset. But, during 2018 MMR effects seem to have practically disappeared. I don't know how much it had to do with the dwindling player numbers and how much with algorithm changes and removal of region selection. But I'd bet at least part of the answer is that MMR was only ever useful at separating those super new players from the rest. As playerbase matured that MMR became useless. So now they actually removed ELO-based leaderboards and replaced them with completely irrelevant rankings based purely on how much people play (just like all these trackers in Apex for level, kills, headshots, etc).
For example, back in the ELO days, I have been ranked in top 1k in EU FPP solos from time to time. Since that rating is all about placement (as you can read in FAQ it has nothing to do with kills), and this was also before Faceit MM or custom games existed, you would expect me to be matched with all serious players that don't hot drop, players that play like competitive matches are played, right? Well, wrong, no matter what ELO I had half the server consistently died in the first minute in hot drops. And it was exactly the same for even the top 10 players. It did not work. Apparently with 100 player lobbies and 35 minute games it is almost impossible to match top players together with any reasonable queue times. Again, huge part of the problem is that most players simply don't play the game competitively. Even though PUBG did add a ranking system to encourage that, streamers sentiment (basically complaining about people not being suicidal) won.
At the same time, with placement based MMR, hot dropping is abusing the system. You ever heard people that hot drop tell you that they either die quickly or have a great game. That's how it works with placement-based MMR. When I decided to do hot drops for a while I noticed just how ridiculously fast your rating drops when you do that. And it's not surprising. From the game's point of view, you are an absolute idiot. There is an 8x8 kilometer map and yet you consistently manage to die in the first minute. So when you finally make it out alive your rating dropped so much that the average level of other players is suddenly lower.
It doesn't matter if some people you know have told you that DrDisrespect is not matched with low-level players. Placement based MMR is absolutely irrelevant in regards to how these streamers play most of the time. In their case all that matters is kill rating. They would need a separate mode with a separate kill-based ELO system. Except I doubt they'd play it if it existed. In a perfectly working kill-based matchmaking everyone's average kills per game should be at around 0.5, half a kill per game. I don't think Doc is actually that high level, yet he still got 10+ kill games regularly. A 10 kill game against equally capable opponents should only happen once in 1024 games on average. Shroud was regularly able to score 20-kill games (20 kill games would only happen once in about 1,048,576 games, yes a million games, so a presence of a 20-kill badge in Apex kinda hints at how much Respawn care about this kind of matchmaking). And even he is far from the worst example (worth noting that a lot of his kills are often unarmed stream snipers). Whenever I see some actually competitive pro PUBG players like Ubah or Fuzzface playing pubs, it's just ridiculous how often they happen to be at 20 kills with no stream snipers, even solo vs squads. The difference in combat skills of players matched together in PUBG is absolutely tremendous. Just as it is in Apex. Mendo's 36 kill record would have taken about 7 billion tries if he was matched with equal opponents. PUBG record is even higher, at 43.
@2deski wrote:
@RichAC wrote:
@Karsot wrote:This is a game not a sport. All BR games are competitive and do not have divisions.
PUBG has a rating system that is not skill based MM either. Just approximation to the rating of the current squad leader. In other words, a noob can be appointed leader of a squad and you will be fighting against noobs even if you are Shroud.
Moving on now. If you die in 2 seconds then you are obviously doing something wrong. Check were you land, learn to hear what is going on around you and learn the areas that offer better quality loot as well as flank areas. On top of that maybe learn how shoot in the practice range ,since we have one and you can practice at different ranges will all weapons, with both static and moving targets. People that have been playing FPS games and BR games longer than you will beat you up always, until you get on their level.
People that have better degrees than you get a better paying job than you and drive a more expensive car than you. This is how everything in life works. Get better and you can beat them.
Also let's assume that they indeed implement that. The top palyers will have to wait for a very long time to get into a match. The low skill players will also have to wait a long time and the only players that will be able to find matches fast are the mediocre players. Why? Because bell curve and math.
On top of that what about trolls and throwers? Let's assume we found a solution for all of the above problems. This is a team game if we put together players we expect them to work together. Now if your team is bad it was 0 effect on you. You just queue up for next game and hope to do better. If you get trolls thought and we implement your moronic suggestions and you lose you will lose rating. Eventually you might drop division or even get trapped at the lowest ranks where people will 100% troll.
Now do you get why this is not going to be implemented in a BR game?
LMAO, I didn't read past the first lines. first of all, Their FAQ says https://pubg.gamepedia.com/Frequently_Asked_Questions_(FAQ) the method they use is an ELO, not a rating based on any stats. And the exact method they use is secret "alot of is behind closed doors".
So what research have you done bud? Because only people that work for the company know exactly how they match players. Now I have never played PUBG. But I do know people that have that have told me after they implemented their form of MMR< they were never grouped with people on the lvl of DrDisrespect as an avg or below avg player again. The matches got more competitive in their opinion.
Also the game has a solo queue to even better rank players. Furthermore, after many games played a players ELO averages out. Not only that, Even if it is based on squad leader as you say it is, then so what? That squad leader is put in a squad of people, and a server with similar MMR.
So again, TLDR...That FAQ is outdated. First, every one of six modes had their own separate ELOs (solo, duo, squad in TPP and FPP), as they should. Having a solo mode does not help, it's the opposite. All regions also had separate ELOs as well. Maps however, did not have separate ELOs, even though they totally should have as map knowledge is an extremely big part of player skill in PUBG.
In my experience, MMR only made a noticeable difference in the early days when there were a lot of new players. Back then I would get a pretty wild easy mode any time a season restarts and ELOs are reset. But, during 2018 MMR effects seem to have practically disappeared. I don't know how much it had to do with the dwindling player numbers and how much with algorithm changes and removal of region selection. But I'd bet at least part of the answer is that MMR was only ever useful at separating those super new players from the rest. As playerbase matured that MMR became useless. So now they actually removed ELO-based leaderboards and replaced them with completely irrelevant rankings based purely on how much people play (just like all these trackers in Apex for level, kills, headshots, etc).
For example, back in the ELO days, I have been ranked in top 1k in EU FPP solos from time to time. Since that rating is all about placement (as you can read in FAQ it has nothing to do with kills), and this was also before Faceit MM or custom games existed, you would expect me to be matched with all serious players that don't hot drop, players that play like competitive matches are played, right? Well, wrong, no matter what ELO I had half the server consistently died in the first minute in hot drops. And it was exactly the same for even the top 10 players. It did not work. Apparently with 100 player lobbies and 35 minute games it is almost impossible to match top players together with any reasonable queue times. Again, huge part of the problem is that most players simply don't play the game competitively. Even though PUBG did add a ranking system to encourage that, streamers sentiment (basically complaining about people not being suicidal) won.
At the same time, with placement based MMR, hot dropping is abusing the system. You ever heard people that hot drop tell you that they either die quickly or have a great game. That's how it works with placement-based MMR. When I decided to do hot drops for a while I noticed just how ridiculously fast your rating drops when you do that. And it's not surprising. From the game's point of view, you are an absolute idiot. There is an 8x8 kilometer map and yet you consistently manage to die in the first minute. So when you finally make it out alive your rating dropped so much that the average level of other players is suddenly lower.
It doesn't matter if some people you know have told you that DrDisrespect is not matched with low-level players. Placement based MMR is absolutely irrelevant in regards to how these streamers play most of the time. In their case all that matters is kill rating. They would need a separate mode with a separate kill-based ELO system. Except I doubt they'd play it if it existed. In a perfectly working kill-based matchmaking everyone's average kills per game should be at around 0.5, half a kill per game. I don't think Doc is actually that high level, yet he still got 10+ kill games regularly. A 10 kill game against equally capable opponents should only happen once in 1024 games on average. Shroud was regularly able to score 20-kill games (20 kill games would only happen once in about 1,048,576 games, yes a million games, so a presence of a 20-kill badge in Apex kinda hints at how much Respawn care about this kind of matchmaking). And even he is far from the worst example (worth noting that a lot of his kills are often unarmed stream snipers). Whenever I see some actually competitive pro PUBG players like Ubah or Fuzzface playing pubs, it's just ridiculous how often they happen to be at 20 kills with no stream snipers, even solo vs squads. The difference in combat skills of players matched together in PUBG is absolutely tremendous. Just as it is in Apex. Mendo's 36 kill record would have taken about 7 billion tries if he was matched with equal opponents. PUBG record is even higher, at 43.
TLDR. stopped reading at "the faq is outdated". Give me a link or something instead of your hearsay.
