Matchmaking thoughts from a Dev
https://youtu.be/6i5642d4DNo The above link details a long standing CoD dev’s thoughts on “SBMM” in non-ranked modes. Please watch. His highlighted point is that “VARIANCE” is the most favorabl...
Forum Discussion
@Axs5626Sxa5001
I got as far through that as I could before it made me want to put my fist through my screen.
The idea that non-ranked gameplay should be a feeding ground for high-level players, and that it's completely okay because there are no ranks at stake, is the single most offensive thing I've ever heard on the subject of sbmm. It's exactly the thing that high-level players say when they're tired of slogging it out with other high-level players and start feeling put upon, as if they have some intrinsic right to crap all over lower-level players for no other reason than because it would be more fun for them.
And I'm also tired to death of the very mistaken idea that ranked gameplay is reward driven and unranked gameplay is "casual," "non-competitive," "insert your own rationalization here for why it's okay to pit what amounts to professional athletes against kids." Rankings are a head game that do not REWARD players, they DESCRIBE their abilities. Players very mistakenly think of it as reward-based, and hence my description of it as a head game. The only reward in any game, imo, is a win. And last I checked this game offers wins in both ranked and unranked gameplay. Taking a win away from a guy who just started the game and has twenty matches in two weeks, so that some sweaty diamond grinder can feel better about himself is pitiable.
Virtually every competitive sport I can think of has gameplay broken into peer groups, grouped either by age or by skill. Little Leaguers very seldom, unless I've missed some new development, play against the Red Sox. And with reason. That kind of pummeling doesn't make the kids into better players, and it absolutely shouldn't make the pros feel all tough and manly. If it does then those people should be medicated. And barred from the sport.
Sorry about the rant but I've been pissed off about this since Halo 2, and it depresses me to have to keep defending something that seems so obvious. If you can explain it to me in a different way than Mr. Former Infinity Ward I promise to read every word.
I got as far through that as I could before it made me want to put my fist through my screen.
The idea that non-ranked gameplay should be a feeding ground for high-level players, and that it's completely okay because there are no ranks at stake, is the single most offensive thing I've ever heard on the subject of sbmm. It's exactly the thing that high-level players say when they're tired of slogging it out with other high-level players and start feeling put upon, as if they have some intrinsic right to crap all over lower-level players for no other reason than because it would be more fun for them.
And I'm also tired to death of the very mistaken idea that ranked gameplay is reward driven and unranked gameplay is "casual," "non-competitive," "insert your own rationalization here for why it's okay to pit what amounts to professional athletes against kids." Rankings are a head game that do not REWARD players, they DESCRIBE their abilities. Players very mistakenly think of it as reward-based, and hence my description of it as a head game. The only reward in any game, imo, is a win. And last I checked this game offers wins in both ranked and unranked gameplay. Taking a win away from a guy who just started the game and has twenty matches in two weeks, so that some sweaty diamond grinder can feel better about himself is pitiable.
Virtually every competitive sport I can think of has gameplay broken into peer groups, grouped either by age or by skill. Little Leaguers very seldom, unless I've missed some new development, play against the Red Sox. And with reason. That kind of pummeling doesn't make the kids into better players, and it absolutely shouldn't make the pros feel all tough and manly. If it does then those people should be medicated. And barred from the sport.
Sorry about the rant but I've been pissed off about this since Halo 2, and it depresses me to have to keep defending something that seems so obvious. If you can explain it to me in a different way than Mr. Former Infinity Ward I promise to read every word.
- @reconzero I've played ranked and pubs. Totally agree. It's the exact same game in both modes. The only difference I found is that all these ranked kids sit in a corner, hiding, because they desperately wanna hold on to their precious rp. Probably the same kids who have turned pubs into the trashcan mode it is, because it is "just casual" and doesn't matter.
@reconzero
1) “ Taking a win away from a guy who just started the game and has twenty matches in two weeks, so that some sweaty diamond grinder can feel better about himself is pitiable.”
I (and many) want specialized lobbies for people who are new. People deserve a safe space to learn and they 100% should have lobbies curated to ensure the game has a “onboarding phase”.
2) You’re making the sports comparison. I didn’t sign up to play in a league or tournament. I’m not getting paid to play Apex. So please don’t compare above average players in an activity to people who are making money through said activity. Yes some people stream and play in tournaments, but that’s typically those ALL the way on the right side of the skill bell curve (the top 5-1%).
And even if we were going to use the sports analogy, sports leagues don’t stop the strong teams from playing the weak teams during lower stakes games (the pre or regular season games). The team in last place doesn’t get to say “hey no our opponents are too good”. The matches are played and a natural outcome/hierarchy is established. I think there is a relationship here that can be applied to non-ranked video game modes.
I think the common misconception is that people who are above average have no life and take pride in beating lower skilled players. I think above average players just want to win more.
But I think the reality is that a VERY REAL “valley” exists for players who are above average but not good enough to be professional. The top 1% (the whales) will win no matter what. But when you create a matchmaking structure that makes above average players the exclusive fodder for these whales, you absolutely rob above players of the rewards they were seeking in the first place “to win more than people who aren’t as good as them”— this is only achieved if everyone plays everyone (in an environment where the stakes are low).- @Axs5626Sxa5001
SBMM is to this day a persistent feature of competitive shooters because without it a game cannot sustain a significant population over an extended period of time, something I suspect Mr. Rubin will rediscover in his new, sbmm-less project.
I think I understand the dynamic whereby masters-adjacent players are used as feeder fish for the master/predator player base. I'm also fairly sure that if you ask the average Apex player if they think that sbmm routinely feeds them to better players for easy wins that the answer will be a resounding yes. I know the problem gets worse as you approach the extremes of skill, but all you would be doing is pushing the pain threshold below your own particular point on the ladder.
The real fix, imo, is for developers to build games with easier skill curves. I know how that idea makes the best players want to slam their fists on their desks, but developers can have a steep curve or they can have a game where people such as yourself do not feel that they're slamming their heads against a wall. I really don't believe you can have both.
"sports leagues don’t stop the strong teams from playing the weak teams during lower stakes games"
False equivalency. Neither you or I are taking a paycheck to show up to this game. If Respawn wants to start paying me to get my butt handed to me by the likes of whoever it is that's so good they can't get any other kind of match... then that's fine. I'll cash that check. In the mean time what you need is a secondary account soft cheat. It pains me to say it, but that is the socially accepted workaround for every single problem that sbmm unintentionally creates.
I will also say on the subject of your 361/2 win rate: Yes, that's particularly brutal. But this season seemed to start with some kind of sbmm "problem" that had everyone facing lobbies of extraordinary difficulty. Except, of course, the whales. I'm sure it was done for their benefit. At any rate, my win/loss was definitely way off my average. I know people want to blame sbmm for every single thing that goes wrong in this game, and in truth it is the root of a lot of evil. But the one thing I can think of that would be far, far more evil is a game with no sbmm at all. - @Axs5626Sxa5001 So right you are 🙂 Love this.
@reconzero wrote:
@Axs5626Sxa5001
I got as far through that as I could before it made me want to put my fist through my screen.
The idea that non-ranked gameplay should be a feeding ground for high-level players, and that it's completely okay because there are no ranks at stake, is the single most offensive thing I've ever heard on the subject of sbmm. It's exactly the thing that high-level players say when they're tired of slogging it out with other high-level players and start feeling put upon, as if they have some intrinsic right to crap all over lower-level players for no other reason than because it would be more fun for them.
And I'm also tired to death of the very mistaken idea that ranked gameplay is reward driven and unranked gameplay is "casual," "non-competitive," "insert your own rationalization here for why it's okay to pit what amounts to professional athletes against kids." Rankings are a head game that do not REWARD players, they DESCRIBE their abilities. Players very mistakenly think of it as reward-based, and hence my description of it as a head game. The only reward in any game, imo, is a win. And last I checked this game offers wins in both ranked and unranked gameplay. Taking a win away from a guy who just started the game and has twenty matches in two weeks, so that some sweaty diamond grinder can feel better about himself is pitiable.
Virtually every competitive sport I can think of has gameplay broken into peer groups, grouped either by age or by skill. Little Leaguers very seldom, unless I've missed some new development, play against the Red Sox. And with reason. That kind of pummeling doesn't make the kids into better players, and it absolutely shouldn't make the pros feel all tough and manly. If it does then those people should be medicated. And barred from the sport.
Sorry about the rant but I've been pissed off about this since Halo 2, and it depresses me to have to keep defending something that seems so obvious. If you can explain it to me in a different way than Mr. Former Infinity Ward I promise to read every word.AMEN!!!
This is what I keep talking about. Their EOMM doesn't work, except on the poor kids who think they will be the next twitch star and keep taking the abuse. It doesn't convince me to play more, it convinces me to do my "2 a day as ________" for 2 total stars and log out. It convinces me that dropping the match before we hit the ground because hot drop harry insists on taking me to Fragment is perfectly OK. It convinces me that this team game isn't a team game.
And I don't care about getting all the stars because I don't care about fully completing the battle pass because I will never buy it when I am the freaking product. A product that exists to feed kills and egos to those people that want to be 'content creators' instead of getting a real job.
Sorry, might be showing my age here but in my days 'content creators' made freaking ART be it paintings, literature, music, dance, something tangible and real that gave something back to humanity.
This (and all video games to me) is not my dang job. I have a job. It pays me very well to think of solutions to real problems and then solve them. I put in my 40 hours plus on that. I'm not going to learn this game as a 2nd job. I'm a super casual player. I play my single player games the first time on easy. If they want me to put more time into this game, then they need to make the "I don't care I'm casual" league.
And if they EVER want me to spend real cash on it, they better give me some single player content. For crying out loud, just give me the Apex version of Frontier Defense. Give all us crap casuals that that are here just because we miss Titanfall game-play and we'll go there, never to darken your BR again.
- @Kyldenar
"Sorry, might be showing my age here but in my days 'content creators' made freaking ART be it paintings, literature, music, dance, something tangible and real that gave something back to humanity."
11/10. Keep on this and dont ever let go! I think we are on a same age. =)
- @reconzero "as if they have some intrinsic right to crap all over lower-level players" isn't that exactly what low level players are doing in reverse? Expecting good outcomes yet has never set foot in the firing range? You do realize there is an unavoidable roof they will hit eventually and end up in the same situation REGARDLESS if they are good or not?
- @reconzero YES! Exactly, thank you! I made this post earlier which blends nicely with your words -
Ask yourselves this - Guys like Shiv, Tim, shroud, snipedown etc... if these guys had to play only the best players in the world masters and preds every single match, 59 other players equal to them or better - match after match, the sweatiest of the sweat hour after hour day after day without anything other than their self nemesis or better - how long do you think they would play for? How long before they move on to something else?
Or - lets say take the top players in the world and, lets just say, players that are even leagues above that skill level (I know I know, that level doesn't exist) but lets just say there was a level 8 times higher than that of these professional Apex elites. Again, how long do you think those guys above mentioned would continue to play for, before they rage quit, lash out in sheer frustration, complain to the Devs and throw in the towel?
I feel it would be safe to say, it wouldn't take long for them to quit and move on.
Essentially, that is exactly what the average player experiences with Apex, and even more so, any new player wishing to try or play the game. Like an child in Pee Pee Hockey having to compete against NHL level adult players. Ones that don't player any different because their opponents are 11 years old, hit just as hard and don't hold back. How long before that child says to his parents "Im not having any fun and don't wanna play hockey anymore." OR - A boxer in Light flyweight division going up every match against heavy weight boxers 240 pounds while he sits in at 108 lbs. Wouldn't take long for the flyweight boxer to quit boxing.
This is literally what Respawn has done with Apex MM.
Just one of the reasons SBMM is needed. Just not the trash one Apex uses.- @NickBeam27
Loved the post, but especially "Pee Pee Hockey!" Wish they'd had that when I was a kid....Same here, they did when my kids were little, just couldn't afford it. 3 kids playing hockey would have bankrupted me lol.
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