Re: Apex Legends Smurfing and Matchmaking

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@lightning_5o wrote:
@SewerTierGamerI work too, and I understand not everyone has time to practice like others. However, if someone puts in the work to be elite they deserve to win more than someone who does not. So your job, does someone who works hard deserve to be paid less or the same as someone who doesn’t? That’s literally what SBMM does to above average players. Are you in favor of everyone having the same win rate despite skill level? Why should my win rate be near the same as my fiancés when I’m a master pred skilled player and she’s never gotten out of plat?

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Because youre in division 1 and she is in division 6.

In football its the exact same thing, 6 division team can be the winner of the division with straight wins no losses.

Still the team in 1st division might be mediocre and have 3 draws and as many wins and losses, the 1st division team is still ranked much higher and is better then the division 6 team.

The 1st division team dudsies/womansies for sure put more work into the football too then the 6th division team and still they have lower winrate.

Explanation enough, see the real life resemblance?

To cater for the masters and diamonds who sweated blood to become what they are, the game needs to open diamon and master+ only content, as I for instance drew an example for in a different post I made a few days ago. I dont know any sports where a full division 1 or elite devision ranked person gets to go up against a mid division contender, its a reason for this.

@ZkepzWhile I appreciate the comparison to sports, I think everyone needs to take a step back and realize that playing pubs shouldn’t be compared to playing in a league with divisions. THAT would be ranked.

Pubs should be the equivalent of casually playing sports at the park with your friends or randoms. Pick up games.

High ELO players aren’t getting paid or getting scholarships. So demanding them to ALWAYS demonstrate a high level of competence, while simultaneously not rewarding them more is actually kind of ridiculous.

Not that I’m verbalizing this, but this is why certain people equate it to “everyone gets a trophy” culture. Personally, I’m okay with everyone getting a trophy, so long as the more competent people are getting MUCH bigger trophies. People having similar outcomes despite vastly different competence levels is what “aggressive socialism” is built on; its like a notion built on “anti-hierarchy”.

Again, how you are explaining this makes PERFECT sense for ranked. But pubs shouldn’t feel like ranked. Right now I occupy the bottom of the top ELO tier. Losing HUNDREDS of games in a row does not put me down into an easier tier. So I’m just locked in this solid cycle of losing that essentially informs me that my experience matters less than someone less competent than me. It just feels— wrong.

Of course you could both have the same win rate - IN YOUR OWN LEVELS. Duh.

Do YOU think that NEW PLAYERS who are trying to ENJOY the game, should be stomped and made feel *, because you can't keep up IN YOUR OWN LEVEL.

How hard a concept is it, to understand that it isn't o.k to make players feel like crap, because you want easy wins?

Reason people flag pubs so high for safe space and so on is split.

1) it's legal to smurf freely in ranked, just see hideouts when he play, so far i only seen him play silver over and over again. This makes ranked the worst place for AVG players to play, they do not meet equal people.

2) recruitment to the game, my example is planetside 2 which is all without any sbmm. I started that, having an AVG survival time of 1,5 seconds after leaving safe spot  it took forever to understand how to survive, but all my friends played for an hour and never came back. I have to say I am a bit of an s&m type so I force myself through these things to see if it gets good. The AVG player don't want this, not catering for these means game will die.

Thing is I get you really well, but I don't thing giving pissing righst is not the right thing as it would * off 90% of the player base but thinking about exclusive content for the top players would give a bigger prize and a proper reason to actualy play at your segment. This is my reasoning and what I think should happen, pushing for sbmm changes isn't really realistic as people would just transition to a new game really quickly.

Just look at Fortnite, they have the same. My daughter got a problem with her profile a couple of years ago so she made a new account while she waited to get back the main account. She hit more then 40 wins in a row, she even went full squads nofill just to get a bit challenge. So you can say more games cater to the same thinking , and for a reason. To have enough active player base to keep the game breathing and living.

You keep saying "competent" which is pretty condescending.  Let's not confuse competency with SKILL -- and the factors that come into said skill, such as free time to play as often as one can, coordinating and party communication with your pre-made squads, the rampant use of strike packs/Cronus add-ons/scuff/paddles with remapping/etc. Saying that only high skill players are "competent" is absolutely silly...but then again you brought up sOcIaLiSm and pArTiCiPaTiOn tRoPhIeS so now I can identify why you think you're so much more "competent" yet deserve to win more than others.

Also, no one is "punishing" you poor, picked upon high-skill players.  Would it be fair for the Lakers to play against some random  junior high basketball team?  No.  If you're one of the most "competent" players, you should be playing in your respective weight class.  Anything else is you just wanting an easy win -- getting upset that you're not winning more than the person in bronze lobbies is so crybaby.  If you can only win and have fun playing against people under your skill level...maybe you're not as "competent" as you think.  

If you wanna brag about being the top dog, you should be ready to run amongst the other top dogs. Otherwise, you're just Kim Kardashian telling us peasants to just get up and work hard.

Nah, SBMM is supposed to protect lower-skilled players from being ran over by higher-skilled players.  Weird how top players love to brag about being SOOOOO good (yet never discuss the crutches that help them be that good) but have such a victim complex about SBMM "punishing" them by making them face similarly skilled players. Play sweaty, face sweaty.  

@MissTawnieeee

Using the word “competence” was not intended to be condescending— I’m sorry if that’s how it’s received. Whether we are using the word “skill” or “competence”, the intended message remains the same— those who are more competent/skilled should indeed have different and more favorable outcomes than those who aren’t.

And there’s no need to devolve into “mEmE tAlK”— you can agree or disagree without intentionally belittling a person’s point. I never said it was outright socialism— did I? I said that if you examine the underpinnings there is a relationship there.

People often like to use sports as a comparison, so I can appreciate your feedback there. But there are two issues with that comparison:

1) The Lakers and every professional basketball player is compensated for their competence in basketball. They are getting paid because of their skill level. Players are not compensated to play public matches in a video game. If the expectation is that every match should play like a tournament, then the onus is on the game to provide rewards for such. THIS is where the potential (but not direct) relationship to socialism exists. If we are going to ask highly skilled players to exhaust themselves, their rewards should be greater than those who are not demonstrating the same skill and efforts. This is just fair.

2) For arguments sake lets stick with the professional sports frame of reference. I don’t really follow basketball anymore but there definitely was a time in which the Lakers were the best team by leaps and bounds. At the same time there was a clear cut worst team— let’s say the Knicks. Even though there are both professional teams, there was a CLEAR disparity in skill level. Despite this, the Lakers still played the Knicks in the regular season. Why? Because a natural hierarchy needed to be determined to structure the post season. Just because there isn’t a clear disparity in skill doesn’t mean that two teams shouldn’t meet. The players on the Knicks don’t get to say “hey this isn’t fair, the Lakers are way better than us! We shouldn’t be playing them! It’s pretty much guaranteed they are going to win!”

OBVIOUSLY the analogy isn’t direct and perfect— but there is enough there to promote conversation.

If the Lakers put on middle school jerseys they still shouldn't be allowed to play against middle schoolers. 

Respawn needs to put a stop to this.

So, by your own logic -- Lakers vs Knicks.  Thing is, they're both still PRO.  Sure, one may be better overall than the other....but they're both still PRO teams.  Just like in Apex -- you may be a top player, but there are still going to be players who are still better than you.  Should the Knicks accept defeat and refuse to play against the Lakers and demand to play lesser skilled teams in an entirely different "weight class" so they can win?. You being a better player doesn't mean you deserve more wins -- it means you actually need to work harder to earn those wins and bragging rights.  There has to be some protection for lesser skilled players since so many "top players" (and I say that because there are crutches used that help them be "top") want to casually clean up lobbies of said lower-skilled players so they can brag about their regular 4k damage and 20 kills...that they KNOW they can't get in high-skilled lobbies.  🙃

And this is coming from a lifelong Cleveland fan, so take that how you will. 🤭

@MissTawnieeee

“You being a better player doesn't mean you deserve more wins -- it means you actually need to work harder to earn those wins”

Isn’t this kind of what I am advocating against? My entire point is that we have to work harder for equal or less reward. And for the 4th time, THIS is what opens the convo to comparisons to socialism.

But look, I acknowledge your position— you made it very clear when you said that being more skilled =\= deserving to win more. This is absolutely our impasse. I don’t respect you any less; I have many many friends that support the idea that all players should win evenly. These people typically hate hierarchical structures, but that doesn’t mean I love them any less.

I just can't understand the disconnect in your reasoning of "SBMM is like socialism" while on the other hand crying that YOU aren't rewarded by being given easier games so you can boast about being better than us.  This is very, "socialism for the rich, bootstraps for the rest" in my opinion.  You deserve X while proverbially pooping on others to get it.  Just like there are no ethical millionaires,  just because you are more "competent" at Apex (once again not mentioning the crutches used) doesn't make you more deserving of wins off the backs of others below you.  

I honestly can't even believe this conversation had to turn to this, actually.  It's pretty silly.  Bottom line is if you're only winning against lower-skilled people -- and have advantages such as pre-made squads, scuffs/strike packs/paddles/Cronus/etc.) -- well, then by all means keep on doing whatever you need to do to feel superior. Apex needs to fix its SBMM and make smurfing more difficult to protect the integrity of the game and to encourage good gaming sportsmanship.  

@MissTawnieeee“There are no ethical millionaires.”

Please tell me you aren’t serious. There are plenty of people who took risks and worked extremely hard to earn millions. The fact that you think being a millionaire makes you inherently unethical is disappointing and pretty telling actually. No wonder you seemed offended when I referenced “socialism”.

And for the record, you likely glanced over several of my comments without actually reading them— never did I say that high skilled players should ONLY play lower skilled players. I’m seeking VARIANCE.

Say it with me: “variance”.

Say it again please: “VARIANCE”.

Why is variance in a competitive activity important? Why would it be important that SOMETIMES you should play a highly skilled player and SOMETIMES you should play less grueling opponents? Because the moment you lock people into an experience it can become super stressful.

I don’t want SBMM removed, I want it tweaked. That in addition to making it harder to create new accounts, would likely reduce the Smurfing problem (you know, the whole point of this thread).

@Axs5626Sxa5001 its easy to get offended when you mention socialism, there are many countries that is founded and run by it today which are very successful for most people. Just wanted to comment on that one 😉

There is a few constructive posts here but it runs down to how can one adopt to the masses as well as the top 5% players. By changing the SBMM you cater for the 5% and poop on the 95% to be honest, I really dont think this is the way to go, this is the problem and probably why so many use less constructive arguments in the discussion.

I understand your argument that you should feel like you have more "wins" then someone who just started the game just because you put in the work, I dont think so but we are both quite allowed to not agree on this point. Fact comes down to one thing, being a part of the 5% should give you something unique, something worth the sweat and tears, one suggestion is changing SBMM to get a more laid back pubs, but other solutions might be there to make sure the last 95% dont flick the finger and just goes to a title that cater for their needs. Fact is some people even if they put in all the hard work wont be able to break out of gold, they might still love the game and I think they should also have a place in the game without being treated like trash. They are a part of the community that keeps the game alive, I do see both sides and I think its important.

Idd say if EA/Respawn manage to cater for both groups, that is the key to keep the game vibrant and alive for years to come 😉

Lmao OF COURSE you think "hard work" made them millionaires!  And OF COURSE you think you deserve easy wins!  

It is very telling.

It feels to me like its a pretty safe bet to say that Apex is not far away from the same outcome of Titanfall. If they couldn't control the sad outcome of what happened to that game, why would Apex be any different. 

The Cheating and smurfing and continuing of products being made and sold to break the gaming industry seems unbeatable at this point. SBMM, smurfing, cheat products, the list goes on. I notice more work being done these days on bundles, skins, etc...

Seems like a last ditch effort to make as much as possible before they leave Apex to the same fate as Titanfall. If these things (sbmm, cheats, smurfing) were able to be controlled or tweaked as you say, fixed, adjusted and so on....it would have been done already. I don't believe it can be. Hence Titanfall. 

Just enjoy the game for now as it is what it is - I do not believe it will be anything more. Get your so called fun in while you can and then say goodbye to another game that was unable or unwilling to be saved. 

Welcome to the new era of online competitive multiplayer gaming industry. 

RIP  ☹️