Re: Balance unkillable Air vehicles

I would completely disagree. That 1% of players that break the game by exploiting the weaknesses of the game mechanics is exactly what you balance for.

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@SirBobdk wrote:

Less than 1% of the player base can fly.

The rest cant stay a live for more than 2 minutes.

You dont balance a game around 1%.

You will always see insane good pilots going 60-2 just like good tankers do.
If everyone can do it then I agree, but it has never been like that and I dont expect it to be like that in BF2042.

BFV was bad because of the carpet bombing, fire bombs and rocket spam but most planes went down in flames within a few minuts. Only the realy good pilots did 60-2 and could stay a live for a long time and only on a few maps like ivo jima and fjell.

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BFV isn't just bad for aircraft it's straight up broken. Plane rockets outrange AA so even a rookie pilot is practically untouchable from the ground.

You can still have a balanced game while allowing the genuinely good players to excel. BF1 is a good example of this with what I consider one of the better balanced Battlefield games when it comes to ground/air.

Battlefield 4 suffered from an over-reliance on lock ons essentially placing a hard cap on your ability to affect the outcome of your engagement with aircraft, often with the best you can hope for is shooing the enemy jet/heli away for a few seconds while their flares recharged. Especially after all the nerfs they made to SRAW, stingers and IGLAs

Given the AA options in 2042 I am somewhat optimistic about how the ground/air balance will develop but given Dice Sweden's history of balancing the ground/air balance around the lamentations of that 1% it could easily go either way.

@JABUKI_68if you balance for the 1% , then 99% of player base can't use that vehicle anymore, so that sounds like a terrible idea, plus the top 1% in another vehicles like tanks also dominate just as hard, if we start balancing all vehicles for the top 1%, then vehicles will be there only for the cinematic effect and might as well be  all removed.

Also BF V was a step back vehicle gameplay wise anyway compared to all previous titles, infantry wise(gunplay and movement) it was the best in the battlefield series on the other hand. 

@NoodlesocksWrote
You can still have a balanced game while allowing the genuinely good players to excel. BF1 is a good example of this with what I consider one of the better balanced Battlefield games when it comes to ground/air.
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BFV was garbage and the most unbalanced game in the series.
BF1 was one of the most balanced games, but still the good pilots went 60-2.

I dont recall rockets to outrange AA. I would say the rockets have the equal range if not a bit less than AA. It might feel this way because you cant kill a plane with one shot. 

And to be honest, the buff of AA and FF turned BFV in the situation it is now.

But now some players have the satisfaction of killing a plane (easier ... for their skillgroup ...). 

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@frantayps wrote:

I dont recall rockets to outrange AA. I would say the rockets have the equal range if not a bit less than AA. It might feel this way because you cant kill a plane with one shot. 

And to be honest, the buff of AA and FF turned BFV in the situation it is now.

But now some players have the satisfaction of killing a plane (easier ... for their skillgroup ...). 

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Rockets didnt out range AA imo. 
Carpet bombing and rockets was a mistake in a ww2 game imo. 
it just started an arms race that Dice couldnt control and ended up as a disaster.
Flying in any BF game is easy, but it takes a lot of hours to get good at it and get a lot of kills. For those who do not fly, it seems easy and maybe that is why they also want to shoot it down easily.

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@frantayps wrote:

I dont recall rockets to outrange AA. I would say the rockets have the equal range if not a bit less than AA. It might feel this way because you cant kill a plane with one shot. 

And to be honest, the buff of AA and FF turned BFV in the situation it is now.

But now some players have the satisfaction of killing a plane (easier ... for their skillgroup ...). 

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Technically yes but practically no. Planes can launch their entire payload with pinpoint accuracy from roughly the same range that AA can hit with a shot or two. However, that payload will kill before the AA can effectively defend itself despite it supposedly being the direct counter to aircraft. Even the heavy AA cannons can not effectively counter aircraft before a killing blow is delivered from maximum range. When you consider that they made rockets effective against every target; infantry, tanks and AA, gave those aircraft the ability to 3D spot targets and made ground targets glow, you are left with a broken game where even the most casual pilots can rack up a ridiculous K/D with minimal skill and effort.

I play both sides of the games, the AA and the pilot side.

I can only tell you this there is a lot of misconception out there.

Most things get repeated over and over here in the forums.

The rocket and AA range is one of them. 

But you are right, some, not most! casual gamers manage to rank up a high k/d. 

But why? Because AA with its range is "harrassing" the sky. The 90 sec respawn time with the problem you could loose the plane slot. 

In the old forums i had a quite long proposal to lower the rocket range, make it harder to aim with rockets (like a bullet drop)  and lower the AA range but make it stronger in damage. 

The "community" told me it is good as it is but didnt realize the problem gets bigger and bigger with every pilot who gets the "hang of it". 

Most pilots dont "hunt" for enemy planes, because AA can reach most of the time 3/4 of the map. At least i dont do it anymore when i am without my squad in the sky. 

Furthermore, the moment they changed the AA range, the FF damage and the planes the rendered most planes useless. 

I see only the same P51D and G6. 

As far as the planes in BF3 and 4 are concerned, the problem was always the same:

A pilot who was a good dogfighter will beat the enemy planes. Then the other team had to resort to ground to air weapons. But since most of these were lock on, the pilot just had to pop the ECM countermeasures and retreat out of range until he recovers.

This resulted in frustrating immortals who even if they did not made massive kills, they could still kill others but never be killed if someone could not out-fly them.

In BFV the initial issue was as some said, carpet bombing etc. But after all the nerfs the bombers turned into a bad joke (my video on the slow motion 4k bombs has almost 600k views now)

With the bombers having become a sub optimal choice, it was the time of the rocket planes to rise. G6, VB and that P51D.

As it was mentioned above, these rocket planes could accurately fire their payload and disengage before the AA can do enough damage to them.

I believe that what we should concern ourselves the most is the experiences from BF3/4 since once again the AA will be almost exclusively guided missiles that can be counter-measured.

Somehow there needs to be some way for the plane to get overwhelmed if enough people on the ground decided to focus their efforts against it.

The "AA invincibility window" of the ECM from BF3/4 should not be carried over to BF2042.

@SirBobdkHonestly, the max AA potential can never be fully realized outside of scripted performances. (seriously check that clip)
Most people will not care about the aircraft unless it did something to them and they want revenge. It is unlikely that the aircraft will ever have the attention of even 10 people let alone 64

@UP_Hawxxeyethe problem of balance comes about when DICE leaves weaken single AA option only or lucky shots.

Take the Scout copter in BF4 for so long, it was to easy to repair on the go, counters and no short range lockon. Without MAA it ruled. Yet when mentioned all DICE heard was the SC was balanced and the MAA needed to be nerfed.

Let's not forget most aircraft had rockets and explosive bullets. Some of those rockets(not AA it Guide missiles) had no warning active lock-on.  

Infantry AA is a joke in BF3/4 SOFLAM and Javelin, Stinger or IGLA.  Range and Lock-on  was the main issue.   

You can't make an Infantry AA to handle planes and then it not dominate copters or handle copters and be useless to planes, if you stay with BF3/4 limits for lock-on or vehicle performance. 

One option I can think of is for certain vehicles to have lock-on for long range between 300m to 600m and a manual guided under 300m. 

The issue it could be manual guided against other targets. 

In bfv I think they got the AA about right on the Pacific maps. The placement of the AA on the earlier maps however left a lot to be desired. 

Loitering around IGLA Stands but not in them until Jet Pilots 'checked' it was the key to Untouchable Jets in Play4free .

Very similar to BFV actually , but then BFV is better with its added 'Range Game' , where both the AAer and Flier know their limits .

High-altitude Scouts with Lock-Ons easily undoes BF4's Jet Untouchables .

One lone Laser Painter and a few with Fire-n-Forgets can be instrumental in quickly emptying BF4 maps of Enemy Vehicles .

With so many extra Players in 2042 freely arming themselves at will , Player Lifespan might be far shorter than one might prefer .

I say Bring it! 

I genuinely dislike planes but they rarely matter in the outcome of games.  Especially if the enemy gains air superiority and forces people to ground and pound flags.  PTFO matters in BF and planes are so far outside the objective they rarely matter.  Oh sure they can carpet bomb a flag...whoopppteeedo.  Only take 1 or 2 medics to negate any casualties.  BFV balance seems okay, you get the typical skilled pilot that can operate at the range they can't get killed effectively but I haven't seen it be the deciding factor in a game result.  You can always tell why you lose by how many of your dots on the map are close to flags or not

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@Icemangooo I agree with you on the vehicles, but BFV was dire when it came to infantry movement. People being able to spam slide and jump across the map makes if feel more like COD Advanced warfare than Battlefield. Add unlimited sprint into the mix (which they did) and it just gets ridiculous.

This happens every DICE BF and it rude word.
- DICE launch BF. Aircraft are set to be OP so newbie can use and unlock/improve aircraft.
- DICE after about a year in, the planes get nerfs, improvement to AA to bring balance.

What actual happens is past veteran pilots hog planes to unlock/improve. Even right post about stop people still their slot. So Newbie never get their chance. When the change occurs Veteran complain it is unfair to newbie and themselves getting weaker aircraft. Everyone whine about the lack of balance through out the entry game.

DICE needs to stop this mid game AA rebalance.

There is lots of issues.
If we are going to have jets, planes and copters the range of equipment that can counter, attack surface and attack air needs some better thinking as it allows to pick the targets the pilot wishes to hunt rather then a role.
When it is compared to ground vehicles option are limited to their roles. These limited roles impact ground vehicles performance unlike aircraft.

Then there the argument that aircraft only dominate certain maps, well that is silly, nothing should automatically dominate a map that seem to be argument that a handful of players should have a right to control many others.  

We don't need MAA if enough ground vehicles have access to AA weapons. Having creditable infantry(maybe stationary) AA weapons and counters to air weapons needs to be from the start.

Hopefully DICE will keep balancing everything by buffing it lol.

air vehicles ruin the game.... only transport helis are needed