So I follow a seemingly popular setup creator in the f1 community and noticed that on all but maybe four circuits he has full RR on camber. As someone who has gone to great lengths to try and understand how camber works in sim racing, it... annoys me how meta this specific setting is to the F1 games. My annoyance has reached a fever point with this year's game because I make a point to add front camber on any circuit that has mid-high speed prolonged corners (think Catalunya, Interlagos or Spa) in order to combat understeer. Logic being that the tire leans more in those corners which should equal more grip. More grip = higher cornering speed so I'm not getting swamped by the AI on exit. The thing is, perhaps just given my personal driving style, this has been an effective tactic. Idk if it makes me faster per se, but the car definitely feels more planted thru said corners. I mentioned this to said setup maker, whose response was essentially just "It's the meta, but here are other ways to combat your issue." And then proceeded to give me other settings that I had already adjusted to taste. No, camber shouldn't be a set-n-forget setting, period.I'd understand minimizing camber if you were suffering from tire wear issues or just really wanted to maximize traction on corner exit, or if the game properly simulated the typical OMI temperatures then there'd be actual thought put into this part of the setup. My question is why has RR on camber been so meta for so long and does anyone else ever deviate off of it? Are my alterations actually working or is it a placebo from forcing myself to apply actual sim philosophies to F1's setup physics and it's actually making me slower?

There was a similar discussion here that should interest you. I'll copy and paste my main points there, but basically the physics are simplified and exploitable. I took OP as feeling frustrated by the "meta" scene still being all about those extreme LLRR or RRLL whatever setups.What I was teasing at is pretty much what you covered. Setups work, adjustments to suspension geometry (and other parameters) have an impact on how the car handles.The meta will hardly change though. In the sense that we will continue to see these extreme values in esports and youtube setups all around. That's due to the fact that the game physics are still very exploitable.We've made strides in the right direction, with a more realistic tyre model, improvements to the aerodynamic systems, collisions and hitboxes, etc. But the simulation is still fragile and people can get away with setups that live on a knife-edge in a handling model that still accommodates wheel and controller users with relatively little separation between them. Plug a pad on your PC and launch iRacing, set a funky camber value and no toe in in a high powered RWD car and try to put a competitive lap time around the track.F1 is a simcade. There's no demerit in it, actually. It is trying to reproduce the feeling we fans get from watching those cars going round and round apparent (but deceiving!) ease. Those cars look planted and mighty on the telly, so the game wants the majority of its player base too feel capable and mighty as Max and Lewis.It's like on FIFA, how you need to go out of your way to fumble a cross. Press the button, fill the bar moderately and the ball will simply fly towards the target with considerable precision. We see players hitting those crosses left and right on the Premier League, so that's what the game is aiming for. Nevermind if you cannot even hit the box on a corner come Sunday match with your friends; the game will cater to a simplified simulation of physics, turning the whole kicking technique in black magic at a press of a button, so that anyone can hit a "simple" cross just like Salah or De Bruyne.In summation, extreme setups (that the game doesn't even allow to be that extreme) will always be relatively accessible. However, most people will be missing out on the blessings of having a more balanced or thoughtful setups, and how it can help them put the power down when fumbling their way out of La Source, because the "meta" makes it look like anything but LLRR or RRLL just makes for a backmarker performance.

@AquaOrenjiWas not always RRLL it’s been RLLL in previous games. If you feel better increasing camber then increase it. The Meta setups are for top 1% And TTers. And multiplayer sweats.Set the car up how it feels for you. I only play single player so have nothing to prove and on long races I prefer setups that make me dance. So sometimes I increase camber sometimes I decrease. On a long race last thing I want is a twitchy low grip car.

@mariohomoh I was hoping you'd show up before I even started composing the post. Thank you again, good sir.It just grinds my gears (heh) that I can devote six days of the week to setup building on iracing or ACC for one day's worth of actual racing but setups are almost plug n' play on F1. Building setups in the old games that had max practice programs and made running all three practices actually worthwhile was more fun than the races themselves at times. Nowadays I just mouth-breathe while I run somebody else's setup and can barely be bothered to deviate for my own personal gain. Then I actually went and did it and was reminded of those good ol' days.I just wish there was some more character to the esport setups instead of one guy feeling like the next guy's. But I know they're never going to move off their 5-minute copy/paste setups until the physics model gives them reason to. Which in itself is wild given how different the driving model is this year. The numbers on each end of the slider may have changed but the position of the little dot on the slider itself has remained stationary.Gonna start playing with the comically low tire pressures next--not that I have to really give consideration to any sort of interplay with the rest of the setup, pfft.

@AquaOrenji Wow, huge respect for that diversity effort! I'm planning on doing just two races, a drow and a half-orc or dragonborn, and I'm anticipating those two taking dozens of hours of my playtime already(😉)

@mariohomoh Was gunna just tag you and let you answer… Wish I had now makes my answer look pathetic 😂

Why is suspension geometry so META?

20 Replies

Iceman038-NL
2 years ago
@AquaOrenji Simple answer: old outdated engine which they keep together with bubblegum and ductape.

They simply don’t see they’re becoming the joke of the racing game scene. Graphical lightyears behind, setups are so simple designed, and don’t start about the netcode which is decades old and horrendous.

If you still get 10fps in the sidemirrors on PS5, then you know they have no clue and are oblivious about how to build next gen.
mariohomoh
Hero (Retired)
2 years ago
@Iceman038-NL Can you elaborate on the specifics of the current game engine negatively impacting the customization of suspension geometry parameters by the player?
ScarDuck14
Legend
2 years ago
@Iceman038-NL You obviously hate this game. Why waste your time here?
Iceman038-NL
2 years ago
@ScarDuck14 wrote:
@Iceman038-NLYou obviously hate this game. Why waste your time here?
If I bother you than don’t read my comments. Free country and all and freedom of speech
unlike you i don’t need to be an EA “champion” and defend EA all the time. Who says I don’t like the game? There’s a difference between developpers and the game.

it’s not the game’s fault they were do poorly designed.
plus you DO read reviews right? That EGO engine (called after their own i guess) is ancient, looking at the the graphical side it’s a shitshow again with halo in nightraces, mirrors on 10fps, weird fog everywhere, the ferrari halo. With the engine comes physics, audio, NETWORK. And if you defend how the online side is designed, how horrendous the lobbies are connectivity wise, I can’t and won’t take you serious anymore, this is all packed in that ego engine, which is old as dinosours.
sorry but it can’t compete with GT7 in every way. And GT7 has more cars, more tracks, Better online design, waaaay better graphics, do i need to go on? Weather model, car setup.
where GT7 manages to blow you away, F1 has become old and rusty. And gt7 does it on BOTH consoles.

with 10 car designs, 24 tracks (depending on seasons), this is simply lazy design. Where titles like GT7, ACC, Forza show what’s possible, EA and CM simply don’t care if it looks and feels great, they just want to take your money (100 bucks!) each year with the minimum amount of effort and not caring if they deliver a masterpiece of another *
Iceman038-NL
2 years ago
@mariohomoh wrote:
@Iceman038-NLCan you elaborate on the specifics of the current game engine negatively impacting the customization of suspension geometry parameters by the player?
For how long has the car setup menu been changed? And I mean really, not like changing the values?

camber toe is always been RRLL OR LLRR (thry changef the values somewhere from left to right that’s it)
how long has the 50% brake bias been a thing?

where the cars are supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport, the setup menu has always been the same. The design even is the same.
ScarDuck14
Legend
2 years ago
@Iceman038-NL I didnt say you’re bothering me. But if a game bothered me as much as it does you. I’d find something more enjoyable to do
mariohomoh
Hero (Retired)
2 years ago
@Iceman038-NL Hmm... Sorry, but those are only conjectures or weak illations at best. Can you establish a causal link between the EGO engine and the lack of variability in suspension geometry parameters?
We've already seen an increase from 4 to 12 data points for tyre load sensitivity, a decoupling of the transmission and the PU in the drivetrain so better reflect how power travels down to the wheels (not instantly as it was before), and specific lift-to-drag ratios for front wings, rear wings, and underfloor – whereas before they were all lumped up together up to F1 2021 – all under the same gen of the EGO engine.
Since you keep on mentioning the limitations of the engine, I'm curious (and genuinely so) to know how it hampers down the suspension geometry of these car models.
Otherwise, that's a whole lot of words towing very little significance behind.
AquaOrenji
2 years ago
@mariohomoh wrote:
@AquaOrenjiWow, huge respect for that diversity effort! I'm planning on doing just two races, a drow and a half-orc or dragonborn, and I'm anticipating those two taking dozens of hours of my playtime already

(😉)
Haha I think I'm gonna wipe my modded MyTeam for the final time and just focus on this league that's starting up. Probably gotta do a clean install to do so--I was adamant about being singleplayer-exclusive but while the AI has become much more satisfying to race, I confirmed last night that they still can't adjust their race strategies to SC and late-race weather changes. 22nd to 4th in a backmarker at rain soaked Zandvoort because only I knew to put on fresh rubber during SC (and not immediately after) is the worst immersion-buster. I'm convinced that tire strategies are fully scripted no matter what happens out on track.
I'm going full dapper-lad Bard for my first playthrough and will mod the game and do an evil draconic elf sorceress run for my second. Wish I could do them simultaneously but I don't want to risk breaking anything in my first playthrough.
Speaking of that league. Have you tried the F2 cars? Got any insight on how the differential works there? It's not the same as on the f1 car. I did some light testing with the extremes already but want to confirm my findings.
mariohomoh
Hero (Retired)
2 years ago
@AquaOrenjiUnfortunately I have no fun driving F2 in these games so I ignore those cars altogether, but the differential should work the same. I posted about them a few weeks ago.
This is no sim, but the basic logic of how differentials work is the same in F1 as it is over the simracing and simcade scene. I can't see why F2's diffs would work by a different logic.

Give us more info and we'll gladly chime in to help, pal ✌🏼
Edit: here the post I'm referring to.
Edit 2: Again regarding F2, that's a shame because F4 and F3 cars are a joy to drive in other sims! They all have character and see fun to manhandle when you're too greedy on cornering. It's a shame we don't have a proper realization of that machinery.
Iceman038-NL
2 years ago
@ScarDuck14 It’s the devs not the game

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Why is suspension geometry so META?

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