Re: David Greco's Handling, Driving and Setup Q&A (?)
@Meza994 Increased by 4% compared to 21. Added tyre induced drag from slip angle. The more you steer, the more drag the tyre will produce.
To reduce power at low revs is not realistic. The issue is somewhere else, but, is complicated. I wouldn't want to fake engine output to solve an issue to be honest. I agree it looks bad, but it needs to be fixed the right way.
@DavidG53 Thanks a lot for the info! From what i heard in one of Kiefers vids it might not been enough but might as well be a different problem, but great to know A) what is part of it and B) that its taken a look at! 🙂
Was just an idea from me, if possible i also prefer the right way for fixes! But again great to know its with you guys!
If i may add another question, do you guys have a look at the low speed behaviour currently? In the game the slow corner apex speeds are even exceeding the 2021 real life cornering speeds and IMO this is caused by too high front grip at minimal loads. I heard that you have increased the amount of load points for the tires and maybe the 1-3 lowest ones just start of too low? This would of course have a general higher impact but to me it would be the right impact due to more stability at race starts (independant of the low grip from tyre temps) and other low speed situations, not more grip but more stability.. Anyway maybe you find the time to educate me about this specific situation 🙂
@Meza994 It is an extreme difficult thing to balance. Front lateral grip has been decreased by 3% compared to f1 game.
It is not possible to balance everything. even iRacing with the W12 is quite a bit off in some areas, otherwise you wouldn't explain that the world record at Silverstone is a 23.8 and real life pole position was a 26.1
Also mathematically the tyre grip balance is right when taking into consideration the car weight distribution.
Also, Miami is a track with very low grip, with very high temperature, kind of temperature that we do no simulate. Over 20 odd tracks, I believe the balance between slow and high speed is ok, not perfect but ok.
Traction issues, I've spoken about a transmission issue, in the video with Alex, that has been fixed for future builds. Problem is I am also way too used to 22, and I won't really know if the traction got better till player have a chance to try it. I find it better, I find I am able to control the throttle a lot better now.
Also, last point, is that, if I make the fronts understeer more, esports guys would find a way to rotate that car at absurd speeds anyway. Is a balance I need to find for all type of players.
22 was a real struggle, I had to decrease tyre grip, because they are harder compounds than 21, not me saying this but Pirelli publicly did say it, but also have same if not more aerodynamic forces. Now try to improve the traction but with less tyre grip, and now also in your comment, saying slow speed corners are too fast, as you can see, the balance that needs to go through is really complicated. At a point in the project sadly I need to stop.
@DavidG53 wrote: @Meza994Increased by 4% compared to 21. Added tyre induced drag from slip angle. The more you steer, the more drag the tyre will produce.
To reduce power at low revs is not realistic. The issue is somewhere else, but, is complicated. I wouldn't want to fake engine output to solve an issue to be honest. I agree it looks bad, but it needs to be fixed the right way.
Hi David, thank you to stay with us 🙂
Can we take the opportunity to ask some questions here?
@DavidG53Ok i didnt listen close enough to get that the transmission change was not in the preview build, that could change things too! So it might actually be more like id expect in the future build! Will keep silent about it till then, but very good to know.
Also i was more referring to COTA, a lap done by Kiefer but anyway what you say always applies.
Yeah Esports guys will always make an abomination of what the devs intended😄 i can fully understand the complexity of things especially with the mindset to make it accessible even for non esports guys. And im very familiar with the 80/20 principle so yeah, cant keep on working forever for the fine margins!
The low speed cornering speeds might as well just be due to too much track grip which i found an issue in 2021. From testing its 10% too much grip in Bahrain (3-4s) and as ive been told in the old Forum you guys use like ~4 different track surfaces. Which is very limiting in itself as track temperatures and the very materials of a track (and other things) make for different grip levels. So A) making each track have its unique track grip and B) reducing/changing them somewhat accordingly to the previous years experience might also help a lot with lap times and all cornering speeds etc..
But if youve got no time dont worry, i will bring the track grip up again when theres an official thread! Thanks again for your time and insight🙂
@Meza994 the only problem, if I remove 10% of grip, the traction also gets so bad. I wish it was only grip. Perhaps a different way to do grip. Say Miami, if you lap in practice 1 at the beginning will be a lot slower but not too bad to drive. Perhaps the rubbering is too strong.
I don't feel comfortable with reducing slow speed grip till I can finally get the traction to feel right.
@DavidG53Yeah i know what you mean but comparing how they got onto the throttle i dont feel like the slow speed grip was the big problem but more the high speed. During my testing i would have my car spinning in Bahrain Turn 12 due to too little rear grip.
Most tracks are mostly around 4-5% too much grip from my testing, thats not too bad and the grip difference can be corrected with setups. But from what i saw we are almost at the limit of how understeery we can get the 22 cars😄 (10-1 suspension and 8-18 aero).. *Another thing worth mentioning for the less grip is: In Bahrain they run higher downforce than in all games which of course helps with the total grip. Especially with the new 1-50 aero this would be good as some might try to go with low downforce but struggle to get through the corners while too much downforce (near Hungary levels) would fly through all corners but be too slow on the straights - best would be a Spain downforce package, at least IRL they use something around those levels.
Maybe also (just my theory) its a different weight distribution-front grip balance. More weight distribution (for example 0.04-0.05 instead of 0.02 in 2021) for a balanced turn in but reducing the front grip for better cornering speed = a bit more traction/general grip. With the lower total grip it might just work but thats all guess work based on 2021 and might be wasted effort for how the whole aero balance etc. is in 22. But the too much rubbering theory might also be part of it! Maybe start with lower grip than 2021 - as they sometimes are really slow in FP1 especially without feeder series and get to a bit less rubbered in than it was.. But yeah thats all not easy😄 Im totally fine with Esports being 1-1.5s quicker than IRL, thats even realistic IMO
@NuvolarixSorry haha the technical stuff aside my english isnt always the best nor are my thoughts well planned and im changing it mid sentence soo sorry for my occasionally convoluted sentences😅😂
That’s really an interesting discussion. And what about the boost of power during shift at relatively low speed from for example 4º to 5º gear? It is common this year to spin the car at corner exit when you go from 70% to 100% throttle shifting up
@NuvolarixSorry haha the technical stuff aside my english isnt always the best nor are my thoughts well planned and im changing it mid sentence soo sorry for my occasionally convoluted sentences😅😂
Not at all! I'ts mainly my english understanding that it is not good enough sometimes 😉 Maybe I would struggle to keep up with David even in the mother tongue, but I would certainly be facilitated 🥳
Porpoising. My point is, bring in the woes of bottoming out but leave the shaky camera out.
Why care about the visual bouncing? We're playing with a flat screen that occupy what, 60% of our field of view? Can you feel the loss of downforce in your body as drivers do? Can you feel the tyres rumbling through your backside as drivers do? Can you guesstimate how hard you can attack the following corner just by what your seat and your wheel feeds back to you?
My point is, drivers are reasonably equipped to deal with the distracting porpoising movement. We are not.
As I said, I absolutely want to tackle the challenge of the underflow choking up. I just don’t care for a tacked on visual shake of the camera, mate.
Tyre load sensitivity. Cornering force and grip multipliers are not the same. You want lower grip multipliers for lower loads or lower cornering performance at lower speed corners? Again, forest for the trees.
By the data it’s not that the grip will be the highest at 0 load. It’s that up to 4500 of vertical load, the cornering force will be Load*1.96. The cornering force is the result of a handful of factos, including the grip multiplier, but the latter is only part of the cornering performance though.
Cornering force will still factor in the slip angle:
Again, random image from Google but you get the gist. David Greco stated already that the drop off after optimum slip angle will be harsher this time, no?
Carrying on, cornering force will factor grip multiplier, slip angle, and the tyre drag. Which Greco also said will be harsher in F1 22.
So coefficient of grip, slip angle, tyre drag aaaaand, the most improtant of all, the load transfer! This whole discussion is looking past the key aspect of cornering performance being the result of the lateral force produced by EACH wheel. And they will all be in different points of the grap!
Here, Mercedes will break it down for us (should be timestamped to 18:57):
@mariohomohPorpoising: I love the visual effect! I think if this one was an option while the bottoming out from the porpoising still happens it would be best. People who dont like the visual can turn it off and people who like it can keep it on, also for better indication when you are actually bottoming out on a straight except for comparing top speeds. A lot of casuals would otherwise not recognize that their setup might be very porpoisy. Besides its not as bad visually if you go for the right balance - a balance which is likely to be what it will be like in 2023, not much porpoising but just like RB for the most part, not super shaky but still somewhat. But i get what you mean and that you dont like it. I like it haha
Tyre load sensitiviy: If we had any more in the game to go on i could tell you more exactly what this "peak" value is but we dont so i cant haha its literally the only load related thing i can see as a modder and as it isnt titled properly we all just guess. As far as we are now, i dont want anything of that changed till we know what the next build of the game behaves like.
Aside of that, this makes totally sense for the lateral load. But does this cornering force, which you think is meant with "peak", also work the exact same way on the longitudinal loads e.g. for a race start? Which arent affected by any cornering forces to my knowledge.. And in the game its (almost) the exact same values for peak no matter if longitudinal or lateral load.
Yes DG said the drop off would be worse but the slip angle (drag and drop off) is another matter haha
And for all your real life comparisons: A lot of that is either (which i think) in the background physics, which are unaccessible for me just like the slip angle drag, or not in depth represented. Just like downforce was (almost) entirely Aero downforce pre 2021 so in terms of the physics they were far from the truth so i wouldnt think it impossible that its also the case for other parts. Real life knowledge is always interesting but it only gets you so far in sims and especially simcades.
It's not that I dislike the porpoising effect. I love camera shaking to some degree, always enable them on all games I play if they happen to be too toned down on default like they are in e.g. GT7.
But 😇 porpoising for an expectator with only sight to go by isn't the same as it is for a driver with use of all their senses and (b) just as a bunch of people found braking point or are betting F1 Life will be a waste of devs time, I feel the same about implementing porpoising and hooking it up with with whole progression system.
I guess we finally reached a common ground? Haha in the sense that all numbers% assessment are too crude yet and it's hard to play when so many cards are still in the deck?
For clarification, nope "peak" is NOT cornering force. Its most likely the coefficient of grip, a multiplier that, along with a handful of other factors, will give you your total cornering force at a given point in the lap.
That said yes you have a similar multiplier for longitudinal acceleration that will give you your total longitudinal force (acceleration) when you factor in all the applying factors, including vertical load.
Tyres have sensitivity to how much load sits on them. It may be different for longitudinal or latitudinal strips, but even if the coefficient of grip/friction (which is what we're talking about here) happens to be the same for both dimensions the final force will still be different as different factors apply. Load transfer is totally different in latitudinal vs longitudinal paths.
The workings of vehicle dynamics are all readily available online, including great material on Youtube. I can lost a few links if you're interested when I get back to my desktop.
Regarding your last paragraph, that's true but not useful or actionable as we do not know the depth of the simulation that Codies' code (pardon the pun) packs in.
@mariohomoh Still want porpoising in haha its not a lot of effort at all getting it in, more getting it balanced with floor downforce upgrades (causing bad porpoising).. But its such a big feature. Having only bottoming out would feel half arsed to me but so does not having it at all currently haha but thats my problem i can totally understand the devs decision, though i dont like it😂
Grip coefficient might very well be.. Would suit what we both say, not directly the grip multiplier but one that contributes what is the total grip and obviously the coefficient is also there for longitudinal forces. That was just what i was not really agreeing with when you said its the cornering force, which is a factor in itself but for the "peak" value the grip coefficient makes much more sense.
Even though it might be interesting, im not too interested in the big physics of vehicle dynamics, otherwise im gonna bring up even more theories on how to improve the game and then be sad because theres not enough time to implement them besides Braking Point 3.0😂
@DavidG53 Hi David. I remember discussions about hi speed corners one day, we asked why we would not able to take certain corners flat out, etc.) So I understand how tricky it is for you to tweak all that stuff for the game.
I have a question as a controller player who doesn't use any assists. Is there any changes to handling/driving on controller. I wonder if this year handling shifts more towards wheel players or it is more or less the same as on F1 2021?
@Meza994 I think they should not waste a lot of work implementing it, all that effort to balance the entire game with porpoising, upgrade, tracks, in my opinion it's just a waste of time while they could work to something more benecifial for us. If you look at real cars, porpoising starts to fade already at most of the teams compared to the start of the season, we already have teams sorting out this effect. So to work so hard to implement this feature into game just to take it off at launch or shortly after because sort it out, it's a waste of time and resources in my opinion 🙂
@Hempyjr For this year it wont happen, i know that, but i highly doubt teams will get rid of it IRL, like completely. So if the Teams still have it next year, in a more acceptable fashion but still compromising their ride height at times, it is an absolute requirement IMO in the game.Teams are currently only reducing it, getting rid completely is very doubtful due to current regulations
@Meza994 Ride height may be a solution after all. If every team does the same thing like increasing ride height and they don't have this problem anymore, it's called a solution and the problem it's not there anymore. I already saw teams not having this problem in the long straight from Miami where they reached speeds like 325-330 km/h, so i still think that it's a waste of time and resources to implement this into the game and like a dev said, players will look to turn it off anyway.
@Hempyjr Ride height is reducing the effect from ground effects, its not a solution for teams, they always strive for the maximum and they wont achieve it with increasing ride height.
In Miami it was really low downforce at use which of course reduces porpoising in itself, expect them to be bouncing more in Spain next week. And all teams were still porpoising, not as bad Ferrari did in Spain pre season but still..
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