Re: David Greco's Handling, Driving and Setup Q&A (?)

@NuvolarixSorry haha the technical stuff aside my english isnt always the best nor are my thoughts well planned and im changing it mid sentence soo sorry for my occasionally convoluted sentences😅😂

That’s really an interesting discussion. And what about the boost of power during shift at relatively low speed from for example 4º to 5º gear? It is common this year to spin the car at corner exit when you go from 70% to 100% throttle shifting up

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@Meza994 wrote:

@NuvolarixSorry haha the technical stuff aside my english isnt always the best nor are my thoughts well planned and im changing it mid sentence soo sorry for my occasionally convoluted sentences😅😂

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Not at all! I'ts mainly my english understanding that it is not good enough sometimes 😉
Maybe I would struggle to keep up with David even in the mother tongue, but I would certainly be facilitated 🥳

@Mezab 

Porpoising. My point is, bring in the woes of bottoming out but leave the shaky camera out.

Why care about the visual bouncing? We're playing with a flat screen that occupy what, 60% of our field of view? Can you feel the loss of downforce in your body as drivers do? Can you feel the tyres rumbling through your backside as drivers do? Can you guesstimate how hard you can attack the following corner just by what your seat and your wheel feeds back to you?

My point is, drivers are reasonably equipped to deal with the distracting porpoising movement. We are not.

As I said, I absolutely want to tackle the challenge of the underflow choking up. I just don’t care for a tacked on visual shake of the camera, mate.

Tyre load sensitivity. Cornering force and grip multipliers are not the same. You want lower grip multipliers for lower loads or lower cornering performance at lower speed corners? Again, forest for the trees.

By the data it’s not that the grip will be the highest at 0 load. It’s that up to 4500 of vertical load, the cornering force will be Load*1.96. The cornering force is the result of a handful of factos, including the grip multiplier, but the latter is only part of the cornering performance though. 

Cornering force will still factor in the slip angle:

Again, random image from Google but you get the gist. David Greco stated already that the drop off after optimum slip angle will be harsher this time, no?

Carrying on, cornering force will factor grip multiplier, slip angle, and the tyre drag. Which Greco also said will be harsher in F1 22.

So coefficient of grip, slip angle, tyre drag aaaaand, the most improtant of all, the load transfer! This whole discussion is looking past the key aspect of cornering performance being the result of the lateral force produced by EACH wheel. And they will all be in different points of the grap!

Here, Mercedes will break it down for us (should be timestamped to 18:57):

@mariohomohPorpoising: I love the visual effect! I think if this one was an option while the bottoming out from the porpoising still happens it would be best. People who dont like the visual can turn it off and people who like it can keep it on, also for better indication when you are actually bottoming out on a straight except for comparing top speeds. A lot of casuals would otherwise not recognize that their setup might be very porpoisy. Besides its not as bad visually if you go for the right balance - a balance which is likely to be what it will be like in 2023, not much porpoising but just like RB for the most part, not super shaky but still somewhat. But i get what you mean and that you dont like it. I like it haha

Tyre load sensitiviy: If we had any more in the game to go on i could tell you more exactly what this "peak" value is but we dont so i cant haha its literally the only load related thing i can see as a modder and as it isnt titled properly we all just guess. As far as we are now, i dont want anything of that changed till we know what the next build of the game behaves like.

Aside of that, this makes totally sense for the lateral load. But does this cornering force, which you think is meant with "peak", also work the exact same way on the longitudinal loads e.g. for a race start? Which arent affected by any cornering forces to my knowledge.. And in the game its (almost) the exact same values for peak no matter if longitudinal or lateral load.

Yes DG said the drop off would be worse but the slip angle (drag and drop off) is another matter haha

And for all your real life comparisons: A lot of that is either (which i think) in the background physics, which are unaccessible for me just like the slip angle drag, or not in depth represented. Just like downforce was (almost) entirely Aero downforce pre 2021 so in terms of the physics they were far from the truth so i wouldnt think it impossible that its also the case for other parts. Real life knowledge is always interesting but it only gets you so far in sims and especially simcades.

It's not that I dislike the porpoising effect. I love camera shaking to some degree, always enable them on all games I play if they happen to be too toned down on default like they are in e.g. GT7.

But 😇 porpoising for an expectator with only sight to go by isn't the same as it is for a driver with use of all their senses and (b) just as a bunch of people found braking point or are betting F1 Life will be a waste of devs time, I feel the same about implementing porpoising and hooking it up with with whole progression system.

I guess we finally reached a common ground? Haha in the sense that all numbers% assessment are too crude yet and it's hard to play when so many cards are still in the deck?

For clarification, nope "peak" is NOT cornering force. Its most likely the coefficient of grip, a multiplier that, along with a handful of other factors, will give you your total cornering force at a given point in the lap.

That said yes you have a similar multiplier for longitudinal acceleration that will give you your total longitudinal force (acceleration) when you factor in all the applying factors, including vertical load.

Tyres have sensitivity to how much load sits on them. It may be different for longitudinal or latitudinal strips, but even if the coefficient of grip/friction (which is what we're talking about here) happens to be the same for both dimensions the final force will still be different as different factors apply. Load transfer is totally different in latitudinal vs longitudinal paths.

The workings of vehicle dynamics are all readily available online, including great material on Youtube. I can lost a few links if you're interested when I get back to my desktop.

Regarding your last paragraph, that's true but not useful or actionable as we do not know the depth of the simulation that Codies' code (pardon the pun) packs in.

What you talking about Willis 

@Meza994  Still a game dude still s game

One think I’ve seen with the handling which I REALLY hope isn’t in the full game is that a YouTuber (can’t remember who but it will come to me) had an orange front wing end plate and stated that the rest of the race they had no significant loss in downforce or pace. That has me very worried but maybe that will stop the rammers

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@Cpayne32 wrote:

One think I’ve seen with the handling which I REALLY hope isn’t in the full game is that a YouTuber (can’t remember who but it will come to me) had an orange front wing end plate and stated that the rest of the race they had no significant loss in downforce or pace. That has me very worried but maybe that will stop the rammers

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Ouch, yes definitely but I’m confident it will work properly 🙂

Is flawless, thanks for the explanation David 🙂

@TPMillo It seems there wouldn't be much point in changing it this year, now that it's siginicantly less powerful irl as well.

Back in 2019, the slipstream reduced drag by 13%, but everyone complained that it was too powerful, so it was changed to 10%. This is a consequence of not have powerful enough dirty air, so as long as you got in drs range, it was basically impossible to defend.

We're seeing something similar irl this year, the drs is very powerful, and the dirty air is much more manageable, so it's very hard to defend against drivers behind, unless you have a significant straight line speed advantage. To add on to this, the cars in-game don't typically have the same disparity in straight line speed as irl, with the engines being identical (aside from Merc), the only real difference is drag, they even get the same scaling for low, medium, and very high downforce configurations. Some of that seems to be fixed this year with the 1-50 wing system, I assume they'll just specify a downforce and drag range across the entire thing instead of scaling them.

On a tangent, the drs was changed from 12% to 15% in 2021, 12% actually being very close to real life, but I assume it was to compensate for the weak slipstream. The problem is the engines had too much power, each having 860 hp, and Merc 880 hp. For comparison, Red Bull and Mercedes were estimated to have between 850-855 hp, with Ferrari and Renault 15-20 hp behind. To compensate the cars were made very draggy. The problem then comes with drs, not only is it more powerful, but it's also reducing a higher base value, meaning it was far too powerful. Hopefully the engines are a bit more accurate this year.

If you play singleplayer there's actually another problem. The slipstream and dirty air is halved (or at least significaly reduced) for the ai. This means the slipstream is even more pointless, but also means they lose less downforce when following. I really can't think of a good reason for this, in my testing I found that the ai can handle higher dirty air values, so it almost seems like an accident. It means the ai is more reliant on drs than the player, but also that they can follow a bit easier through corners. Really hope this is changed, I don't see any reason for it to be this way.

Another problem is overtake, or rather how deployment works. As speed increases, deployment will start reducing, I assume in an effort simulate real deployment patterns without having to map it all out. Unfortuately it means overtake gets less effective at higher speeds, being reduced by 10% at 306 kph, 25% at 324 kph, 40% at 342 kph, and 75% at 375 (in-game theoretical top speed). It might not sound like much, but losing 40 hp at 324 kph is ridiculous. I hope this is changed.

Sorry about the long post, kinda lost focus. ('´ ˘ `)

@ActuallyImJulie could you expand on the ERS bit a little?

I thought Overtake mode in the game gave you the full might of the MGU-K's 160hp (164? 180?) regardless of wheel or engine speed.

Even thought it was cool that the game is represented the regs in disabling the MGU-K's output when below 100kph or thereabouts.

@mariohomoh It's actually fairly simple.

This tells the game what the maximum amount of deployment in Watts is (120000 is equivalent to 160 hp).

Then the mode you're in simply deploys a percentage of that number.

Then the game looks how fast you're going (in M/S), and deploys a percentage of your percentage. This is why Overtake is a problem, it exists under the same SpeedDeployLine as the other modes, it's not a seperate thing, even though it might look like it in-game.

Not sure what these percentages represent, I'm assuming loss of downforce/drag. Anyway, isn't 24-25% significantly more than 10% (potentially 5%) @Meza994?

And @ActuallyImJulie thanks for the ERS breakdown! Can't think of a reason for that.