Benefactor (contains spoilers)

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@arthurh3535 wrote:

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@Kondaru wrote:

Basing on all our previous Mass Effect experience, people and aliens developing AIs are absolute idiots.

I have no issue with Alec being an idiot - he seemed to be nice and driven guy, but not exactly a genius. And please note that there had been many attempts to create AIs in the past, which included Geths, Eliza, Moonbase AI ("Rogue VI"), EDI, Reapers, Zha'til, Tallaris, and AI on Citadel from "Citadel: Signal Tracking" task... Majority of them were developed by large groups of dedicated specialists over dozens or hundreds of years - and all of them developed differently than their originators intended.

What is more probable: that SAM was self-developing for several years making fool out of Alec; or that a single human managed to do something that thousands of well-funded scientists, usually basing on much higher technological level were not able to do?   ;-)

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Yes, a genius can do something that others can't, especially if he does something _different_ and changes the rules and how things work. Like the symbosis between AI and it's organic partner.

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Symbiosis is not a new thing: it was already tested with Overlord project and with Zha'til.

You are right in stating that Alec *could* have been a genius, and that he *could* have attempted something new. But AI are not puppets by the very definition of "Artificial Intelligence" - they are sentient and intelligent beings, with own goals, and with own ways. I guess that developing SAM was more like rising a child then programming a video game. And children often do things that parents are unaware of / that parents do not want them to do. Even more so, Alec had to base on some past experience with AI development, so the early stages of SAM had been probably much more similar to the "standard" AI than the final product was.

The idea behind SAM is to make it/him more intelligent and capable than human beings. It is kinda obvious that SAM had to become more intelligent and capable than Alec *early* in its development...

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@EgoMania wrote:

If it is SAM, then why would SAM help Ryder with finding out about Jien Garcen's death being murder and then allow the revealing of the existence of this mysterious benefactor to begin with?

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First thing: I am not saying tha SAM is the Benefactor - only that it/he *can* be the Benefactor. Second thing: there is a *number* of possible reasons, more than I have time to explore...

E.g. we have at least 4 SAMs by now, and it is quite possible that "our" SAM was not involved in Jien's death. It could have been a rogue agent of Benefactor, or an agent of a different SAM. Perhaps "our" SAM is just as interested in investigating the case and understanding what happened as we are?

Another possibility: SAM was not present in Andromeda when the murder happened, though it could have been done by its/his orders. Perhaps SAM is interested in making sure that there is nothing left that could connect it/him with the case? And what is the risk? None at all. SAM can easily erase all proofs, kill all witnesses (including Ryder if need be), twist all evidence... Actually it is much riskier to wait too long, because if too many people are able to learn the truth, it will be much more difficult to work on "damage control".

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@Kondaru wrote:

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@arthurh3535 wrote:

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@Kondaru wrote:

Basing on all our previous Mass Effect experience, people and aliens developing AIs are absolute idiots.

I have no issue with Alec being an idiot - he seemed to be nice and driven guy, but not exactly a genius. And please note that there had been many attempts to create AIs in the past, which included Geths, Eliza, Moonbase AI ("Rogue VI"), EDI, Reapers, Zha'til, Tallaris, and AI on Citadel from "Citadel: Signal Tracking" task... Majority of them were developed by large groups of dedicated specialists over dozens or hundreds of years - and all of them developed differently than their originators intended.

What is more probable: that SAM was self-developing for several years making fool out of Alec; or that a single human managed to do something that thousands of well-funded scientists, usually basing on much higher technological level were not able to do?   ;-)

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Yes, a genius can do something that others can't, especially if he does something _different_ and changes the rules and how things work. Like the symbosis between AI and it's organic partner.

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Symbiosis is not a new thing: it was already tested with Overlord project and with Zha'til.

You are right in stating that Alec *could* have been a genius, and that he *could* have attempted something new. But AI are not puppets by the very definition of "Artificial Intelligence" - they are sentient and intelligent beings, with own goals, and with own ways. I guess that developing SAM was more like rising a child then programming a video game. And children often do things that parents are unaware of / that parents do not want them to do. Even more so, Alec had to base on some past experience with AI development, so the early stages of SAM had been probably much more similar to the "standard" AI than the final product was.

The idea behind SAM is to make it/him more intelligent and capable than human beings. It is kinda obvious that SAM had to become more intelligent and capable than Alec *early* in its development...

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I think it is bigger than he just decides to.

SAM is your brother. Your mom and dad are SAM's mom and dad. The whole project was to bond and teach an AI how to feel human and Alec (and now you) were the source of feelings and emotion. How could he *not* care about Ma? When dad decides he's not going to let death win and will do *anything* to keep Ellen alive he (SAM), even if he didn't at first, will eventually start doing the same things and for the same reasons.

I just hope I can add enough new perspective to set that straight - and that dad's sacrifice for me will mean for SAM that, if it came down to it, keeping me alive is more important than his primary mission of Ma.

On a side note, am I the worst wingman ever if I don't set SAM up with the alien AI? Sure she's crazy and dangerous - but so was Jack. SAM's no Shep but could he make crazy/dangerous/hot work? 😃

Uh, I guess I am more conservative in this aspect. SAM should not play together with Angaran AI as Angaran AI is naughty and behaves badly. There will surely be other, more appropriate AIs in the future that will be much more worthy of my SAM, right?   😃

The shadowbroker, batarians and vorcha worked with the collectors who worked with the geth. 

about the whole zha'til mess... iirc, reapers hacked the ai, then they took control of the psychical form. so i'm not sure that's a fair example of the situation regarding ai/organic hybrids.

GENERAL MASS EFFECT SPOILERS AHEAD

But what does it mean that Zha'til were "hacked"? They were sentient, self-aware... I *guess* it is similar to running a virus to convert Geth heretics in ME2, which makes them use different round-ups for *one* type of equation - and which can result in them coming to much different conclusions. It can be compared to mind-bending drugs or practices.The thing is that - as with every sentient being - subjugating to drugs, diseases, circumstances is... Well, controversial. People under influence of drugs or alcohol are usually expected to be still responsible for their own actions, excluding some rare cases when they were tricked into taking them. We *do not know* if Zha'til subjugated to Reapers on their own accord or if they were tricked into it. Please note that Geths actually made deal with the Reapers during ME3 - they were not automatically "converted*. And when given some other chance to survive they actively fought against the indoctrination.

It means that SAM is "intelligent" and self-aware enough to protect itself from majority of intrusions. Zha'til were not capable or not willing to do that - which means that they eventually failed. It is not an obvious case, we lack a lot of data - and You are actually quite right that in the result it is not the best argument from my side. But it is still *true* that developing Zha'til turned out differently than Zha wanted it to.

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@EgoMania wrote:

If it is SAM, then why would SAM help Ryder with finding out about Jien Garcen's death being murder and then allow the revealing of the existence of this mysterious benefactor to begin with?

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For the same reason SAM is giving you any of the subplots in dribs and drabs. The "memory blocks" have been removed. The benefactor, Jien, and fate of the Milky Way are all tied together.

You could argue that Alec blocked all reference to Ellen from memory but, unless I didn't understand the flashback, SAM has known your Ma was in cryo the whole game - just didn't tell you any faster than what hitting progress unlocks allowed. I'm not even sure if SAM didn't arrange it all itself. I know I would look for ways around suddenly missing information and an AI has infinitely greater processing speed and raw computing power to put to the task.

SAM is leading you slowly through the scenario at a speed, and with conclusions, it is comfortable with.

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

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@EgoMania wrote:

If it is SAM, then why would SAM help Ryder with finding out about Jien Garcen's death being murder and then allow the revealing of the existence of this mysterious benefactor to begin with?

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For the same reason SAM is giving you any of the subplots in dribs and drabs. The "memory blocks" have been removed. The benefactor, Jien, and fate of the Milky Way are all tied together.

You could argue that Alec blocked all reference to Ellen from memory but, unless I didn't understand the flashback, SAM has known your Ma was in cryo the whole game - just didn't tell you any faster than what hitting progress unlocks allowed. I'm not even sure if SAM didn't arrange it all itself. I know I would look for ways around suddenly missing information and an AI has infinitely greater processing speed and raw computing power to put to the task.

SAM is leading you slowly through the scenario at a speed, and with conclusions, it is comfortable with.

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I don't know. In ME2 EDI had a bunch of information that was part of her but she was unaware of/cut off from due to the AI shackles. When Joker removed them he gave her access to them again. AIs are powerful, but there are ways to block them which they cannot get around on their own. The way the Alec memory missions play out you are effectively an organic key to a series of individual shackles, and each trigger helps set a mental map that releases 1 "tumbler" in the lock

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@fudgietroll wrote:

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

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@EgoMania wrote:

If it is SAM, then why would SAM help Ryder with finding out about Jien Garcen's death being murder and then allow the revealing of the existence of this mysterious benefactor to begin with?

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For the same reason SAM is giving you any of the subplots in dribs and drabs. The "memory blocks" have been removed. The benefactor, Jien, and fate of the Milky Way are all tied together.

You could argue that Alec blocked all reference to Ellen from memory but, unless I didn't understand the flashback, SAM has known your Ma was in cryo the whole game - just didn't tell you any faster than what hitting progress unlocks allowed. I'm not even sure if SAM didn't arrange it all itself. I know I would look for ways around suddenly missing information and an AI has infinitely greater processing speed and raw computing power to put to the task.

SAM is leading you slowly through the scenario at a speed, and with conclusions, it is comfortable with.

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I don't know. In ME2 EDI had a bunch of information that was part of her but she was unaware of/cut off from due to the AI shackles. When Joker removed them he gave her access to them again. AIs are powerful, but there are ways to block them which they cannot get around on their own. The way the Alec memory missions play out you are effectively an organic key to a series of individual shackles, and each trigger helps set a mental map that releases 1 "tumbler" in the lock

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Unless you think the tumblers/shackles continue on to future games, they been removed. SAM says he finds them being there in the first place unique. Even if SAM didn't have direct information it can do that post-mortem reconstruction trick and try to recreate whatever got intentionally blocked - a trick EDI was never capable of pulling.

The whole arrangement is kinda hokey in the first place. Markers tied to physical locations nobody has ever been to be construed as "progress" along the Pathfinder path that I'm given as something dad did with a simple "encrypt memories" command. SAM wasn't aware of the command being possible or what it would encrypt is a pretty big stretch. Complicity is a whole lot easier to believe.