It doesn't make any logical sense for SAM to be the benefactor.
SAM: I'll get all the resources needed to fund 6 extragalactic ships, thereby saving Ellen by having myself recruit my creator and finish my creation to finish one of my primary purposes!!!!!
It would be much simpler.
SAM is a sentient being which means that it is concerned about own fate. Milky Way has anti-AI policy, Alec was dishonorably discharged for dabbling in AIs, AIs are destroyed / shot on sight galaxy-wide... It actually makes sense to look for some way to run to a safe haven, and deciding that it would be in another galaxy is absolutely within capabilities of artificial intelligence.
So first: collect funds for further own development; and then second: find a way to survive. If there is some way to aid the nice human that created SAM when working on before-mentioned goals - all the better!
It still doesn't make a lick of sense because the Benefactor recruited Alex with the promise of enough funds to finish creating SAM, an incomplete project. IOW, SAM isn't finished, so could not be as capable as people are trying to state.
It still doesn't make a lick of sense because the Benefactor recruited Alex with the promise of enough funds to finish creating SAM, an incomplete project. IOW, SAM isn't finished, so could not be as capable as people are trying to state.
It is like saying that there is no way to have alpha or beta version of video games or to sell early access games prior to official release, because "they are not finished".
Seriously, MEA *is* released, and there is still a lot of work needed to have it... eh... finished.
I absolutely do not see why You believe that SAM was not operational at the time Benefactor contacted Alec for the first time. Actually, there is a lot that proves it *was* already operational (SAM clearly comments on those memories, including all the earlier ones with things like "This was the first time I met..."). SAM was not *perfect* yet, sure, still in need for much work to become what it is now... But capable to fundraise a project or create false identities? Uh... That is something that the very simplest of Milky Way AIs are more than capable to do basing on our ME1 and ME2 experience!
It still doesn't make a lick of sense because the Benefactor recruited Alex with the promise of enough funds to finish creating SAM, an incomplete project. IOW, SAM isn't finished, so could not be as capable as people are trying to state.
It is like saying that there is no way to have alpha or beta version of video games or to sell early access games prior to official release, because "they are not finished".
Seriously, MEA *is* released, and there is still a lot of work needed to have it... eh... finished.
I absolutely do not see why You believe that SAM was not operational at the time Benefactor contacted Alec for the first time. Actually, there is a lot that proves it *was* already operational (SAM clearly comments on those memories, including all the earlier ones with things like "This was the first time I met..."). SAM was not *perfect* yet, sure, still in need for much work to become what it is now... But capable to fundraise a project or create false identities? Uh... That is something that the very simplest of Milky Way AIs are more than capable to do basing on our ME1 and ME2 experience!
Because it makes Alec an absolute idiot if he doesn't understand that his SAM could just steal the money needed to finish itself to save his wife.
Basing on all our previous Mass Effect experience, people and aliens developing AIs are absolute idiots.
I have no issue with Alec being an idiot - he seemed to be nice and driven guy, but not exactly a genius. And please note that there had been many attempts to create AIs in the past, which included Geths, Eliza, Moonbase AI ("Rogue VI"), EDI, Reapers, Zha'til, Tallaris, and AI on Citadel from "Citadel: Signal Tracking" task... Majority of them were developed by large groups of dedicated specialists over dozens or hundreds of years - and all of them developed differently than their originators intended.
What is more probable: that SAM was self-developing for several years making fool out of Alec; or that a single human managed to do something that thousands of well-funded scientists, usually basing on much higher technological level were not able to do? ;-)
Basing on all our previous Mass Effect experience, people and aliens developing AIs are absolute idiots.
I have no issue with Alec being an idiot - he seemed to be nice and driven guy, but not exactly a genius. And please note that there had been many attempts to create AIs in the past, which included Geths, Eliza, Moonbase AI ("Rogue VI"), EDI, Reapers, Zha'til, Tallaris, and AI on Citadel from "Citadel: Signal Tracking" task... Majority of them were developed by large groups of dedicated specialists over dozens or hundreds of years - and all of them developed differently than their originators intended.
What is more probable: that SAM was self-developing for several years making fool out of Alec; or that a single human managed to do something that thousands of well-funded scientists, usually basing on much higher technological level were not able to do? ;-)
Yes, a genius can do something that others can't, especially if he does something _different_ and changes the rules and how things work. Like the symbosis between AI and it's organic partner.
If it is SAM, then why would SAM help Ryder with finding out about Jien Garcen's death being murder and then allow the revealing of the existence of this mysterious benefactor to begin with?
Basing on all our previous Mass Effect experience, people and aliens developing AIs are absolute idiots.
I have no issue with Alec being an idiot - he seemed to be nice and driven guy, but not exactly a genius. And please note that there had been many attempts to create AIs in the past, which included Geths, Eliza, Moonbase AI ("Rogue VI"), EDI, Reapers, Zha'til, Tallaris, and AI on Citadel from "Citadel: Signal Tracking" task... Majority of them were developed by large groups of dedicated specialists over dozens or hundreds of years - and all of them developed differently than their originators intended.
What is more probable: that SAM was self-developing for several years making fool out of Alec; or that a single human managed to do something that thousands of well-funded scientists, usually basing on much higher technological level were not able to do? ;-)
Yes, a genius can do something that others can't, especially if he does something _different_ and changes the rules and how things work. Like the symbosis between AI and it's organic partner.
Symbiosis is not a new thing: it was already tested with Overlord project and with Zha'til.
You are right in stating that Alec *could* have been a genius, and that he *could* have attempted something new. But AI are not puppets by the very definition of "Artificial Intelligence" - they are sentient and intelligent beings, with own goals, and with own ways. I guess that developing SAM was more like rising a child then programming a video game. And children often do things that parents are unaware of / that parents do not want them to do. Even more so, Alec had to base on some past experience with AI development, so the early stages of SAM had been probably much more similar to the "standard" AI than the final product was.
The idea behind SAM is to make it/him more intelligent and capable than human beings. It is kinda obvious that SAM had to become more intelligent and capable than Alec *early* in its development...
If it is SAM, then why would SAM help Ryder with finding out about Jien Garcen's death being murder and then allow the revealing of the existence of this mysterious benefactor to begin with?
First thing: I am not saying tha SAM is the Benefactor - only that it/he *can* be the Benefactor. Second thing: there is a *number* of possible reasons, more than I have time to explore...
E.g. we have at least 4 SAMs by now, and it is quite possible that "our" SAM was not involved in Jien's death. It could have been a rogue agent of Benefactor, or an agent of a different SAM. Perhaps "our" SAM is just as interested in investigating the case and understanding what happened as we are?
Another possibility: SAM was not present in Andromeda when the murder happened, though it could have been done by its/his orders. Perhaps SAM is interested in making sure that there is nothing left that could connect it/him with the case? And what is the risk? None at all. SAM can easily erase all proofs, kill all witnesses (including Ryder if need be), twist all evidence... Actually it is much riskier to wait too long, because if too many people are able to learn the truth, it will be much more difficult to work on "damage control".
Basing on all our previous Mass Effect experience, people and aliens developing AIs are absolute idiots.
I have no issue with Alec being an idiot - he seemed to be nice and driven guy, but not exactly a genius. And please note that there had been many attempts to create AIs in the past, which included Geths, Eliza, Moonbase AI ("Rogue VI"), EDI, Reapers, Zha'til, Tallaris, and AI on Citadel from "Citadel: Signal Tracking" task... Majority of them were developed by large groups of dedicated specialists over dozens or hundreds of years - and all of them developed differently than their originators intended.
What is more probable: that SAM was self-developing for several years making fool out of Alec; or that a single human managed to do something that thousands of well-funded scientists, usually basing on much higher technological level were not able to do? ;-)
Yes, a genius can do something that others can't, especially if he does something _different_ and changes the rules and how things work. Like the symbosis between AI and it's organic partner.
Symbiosis is not a new thing: it was already tested with Overlord project and with Zha'til.
You are right in stating that Alec *could* have been a genius, and that he *could* have attempted something new. But AI are not puppets by the very definition of "Artificial Intelligence" - they are sentient and intelligent beings, with own goals, and with own ways. I guess that developing SAM was more like rising a child then programming a video game. And children often do things that parents are unaware of / that parents do not want them to do. Even more so, Alec had to base on some past experience with AI development, so the early stages of SAM had been probably much more similar to the "standard" AI than the final product was.
The idea behind SAM is to make it/him more intelligent and capable than human beings. It is kinda obvious that SAM had to become more intelligent and capable than Alec *early* in its development...
I think it is bigger than he just decides to.
SAM is your brother. Your mom and dad are SAM's mom and dad. The whole project was to bond and teach an AI how to feel human and Alec (and now you) were the source of feelings and emotion. How could he *not* care about Ma? When dad decides he's not going to let death win and will do *anything* to keep Ellen alive he (SAM), even if he didn't at first, will eventually start doing the same things and for the same reasons.
I just hope I can add enough new perspective to set that straight - and that dad's sacrifice for me will mean for SAM that, if it came down to it, keeping me alive is more important than his primary mission of Ma.
On a side note, am I the worst wingman ever if I don't set SAM up with the alien AI? Sure she's crazy and dangerous - but so was Jack. SAM's no Shep but could he make crazy/dangerous/hot work? 😃
Uh, I guess I am more conservative in this aspect. SAM should not play together with Angaran AI as Angaran AI is naughty and behaves badly. There will surely be other, more appropriate AIs in the future that will be much more worthy of my SAM, right? 😃
about the whole zha'til mess... iirc, reapers hacked the ai, then they took control of the psychical form. so i'm not sure that's a fair example of the situation regarding ai/organic hybrids.
But what does it mean that Zha'til were "hacked"? They were sentient, self-aware... I *guess* it is similar to running a virus to convert Geth heretics in ME2, which makes them use different round-ups for *one* type of equation - and which can result in them coming to much different conclusions. It can be compared to mind-bending drugs or practices.The thing is that - as with every sentient being - subjugating to drugs, diseases, circumstances is... Well, controversial. People under influence of drugs or alcohol are usually expected to be still responsible for their own actions, excluding some rare cases when they were tricked into taking them. We *do not know* if Zha'til subjugated to Reapers on their own accord or if they were tricked into it. Please note that Geths actually made deal with the Reapers during ME3 - they were not automatically "converted*. And when given some other chance to survive they actively fought against the indoctrination.
E.g. SAM is able to detect Knight's virus early enough to prevent it from taking effect.
It means that SAM is "intelligent" and self-aware enough to protect itself from majority of intrusions. Zha'til were not capable or not willing to do that - which means that they eventually failed. It is not an obvious case, we lack a lot of data - and You are actually quite right that in the result it is not the best argument from my side. But it is still *true* that developing Zha'til turned out differently than Zha wanted it to.
If it is SAM, then why would SAM help Ryder with finding out about Jien Garcen's death being murder and then allow the revealing of the existence of this mysterious benefactor to begin with?
For the same reason SAM is giving you any of the subplots in dribs and drabs. The "memory blocks" have been removed. The benefactor, Jien, and fate of the Milky Way are all tied together.
You could argue that Alec blocked all reference to Ellen from memory but, unless I didn't understand the flashback, SAM has known your Ma was in cryo the whole game - just didn't tell you any faster than what hitting progress unlocks allowed. I'm not even sure if SAM didn't arrange it all itself. I know I would look for ways around suddenly missing information and an AI has infinitely greater processing speed and raw computing power to put to the task.
SAM is leading you slowly through the scenario at a speed, and with conclusions, it is comfortable with.
If it is SAM, then why would SAM help Ryder with finding out about Jien Garcen's death being murder and then allow the revealing of the existence of this mysterious benefactor to begin with?
For the same reason SAM is giving you any of the subplots in dribs and drabs. The "memory blocks" have been removed. The benefactor, Jien, and fate of the Milky Way are all tied together.
You could argue that Alec blocked all reference to Ellen from memory but, unless I didn't understand the flashback, SAM has known your Ma was in cryo the whole game - just didn't tell you any faster than what hitting progress unlocks allowed. I'm not even sure if SAM didn't arrange it all itself. I know I would look for ways around suddenly missing information and an AI has infinitely greater processing speed and raw computing power to put to the task.
SAM is leading you slowly through the scenario at a speed, and with conclusions, it is comfortable with.
I don't know. In ME2 EDI had a bunch of information that was part of her but she was unaware of/cut off from due to the AI shackles. When Joker removed them he gave her access to them again. AIs are powerful, but there are ways to block them which they cannot get around on their own. The way the Alec memory missions play out you are effectively an organic key to a series of individual shackles, and each trigger helps set a mental map that releases 1 "tumbler" in the lock
If it is SAM, then why would SAM help Ryder with finding out about Jien Garcen's death being murder and then allow the revealing of the existence of this mysterious benefactor to begin with?
For the same reason SAM is giving you any of the subplots in dribs and drabs. The "memory blocks" have been removed. The benefactor, Jien, and fate of the Milky Way are all tied together.
You could argue that Alec blocked all reference to Ellen from memory but, unless I didn't understand the flashback, SAM has known your Ma was in cryo the whole game - just didn't tell you any faster than what hitting progress unlocks allowed. I'm not even sure if SAM didn't arrange it all itself. I know I would look for ways around suddenly missing information and an AI has infinitely greater processing speed and raw computing power to put to the task.
SAM is leading you slowly through the scenario at a speed, and with conclusions, it is comfortable with.
I don't know. In ME2 EDI had a bunch of information that was part of her but she was unaware of/cut off from due to the AI shackles. When Joker removed them he gave her access to them again. AIs are powerful, but there are ways to block them which they cannot get around on their own. The way the Alec memory missions play out you are effectively an organic key to a series of individual shackles, and each trigger helps set a mental map that releases 1 "tumbler" in the lock
Unless you think the tumblers/shackles continue on to future games, they been removed. SAM says he finds them being there in the first place unique. Even if SAM didn't have direct information it can do that post-mortem reconstruction trick and try to recreate whatever got intentionally blocked - a trick EDI was never capable of pulling.
The whole arrangement is kinda hokey in the first place. Markers tied to physical locations nobody has ever been to be construed as "progress" along the Pathfinder path that I'm given as something dad did with a simple "encrypt memories" command. SAM wasn't aware of the command being possible or what it would encrypt is a pretty big stretch. Complicity is a whole lot easier to believe.
If it is SAM, then why would SAM help Ryder with finding out about Jien Garcen's death being murder and then allow the revealing of the existence of this mysterious benefactor to begin with?
For the same reason SAM is giving you any of the subplots in dribs and drabs. The "memory blocks" have been removed. The benefactor, Jien, and fate of the Milky Way are all tied together.
You could argue that Alec blocked all reference to Ellen from memory but, unless I didn't understand the flashback, SAM has known your Ma was in cryo the whole game - just didn't tell you any faster than what hitting progress unlocks allowed. I'm not even sure if SAM didn't arrange it all itself. I know I would look for ways around suddenly missing information and an AI has infinitely greater processing speed and raw computing power to put to the task.
SAM is leading you slowly through the scenario at a speed, and with conclusions, it is comfortable with.
I don't know. In ME2 EDI had a bunch of information that was part of her but she was unaware of/cut off from due to the AI shackles. When Joker removed them he gave her access to them again. AIs are powerful, but there are ways to block them which they cannot get around on their own. The way the Alec memory missions play out you are effectively an organic key to a series of individual shackles, and each trigger helps set a mental map that releases 1 "tumbler" in the lock
Unless you think the tumblers/shackles continue on to future games, they been removed. SAM says he finds them being there in the first place unique. Even if SAM didn't have direct information it can do that post-mortem reconstruction trick and try to recreate whatever got intentionally blocked - a trick EDI was never capable of pulling.
The whole arrangement is kinda hokey in the first place. Markers tied to physical locations nobody has ever been to be construed as "progress" along the Pathfinder path that I'm given as something dad did with a simple "encrypt memories" command. SAM wasn't aware of the command being possible or what it would encrypt is a pretty big stretch. Complicity is a whole lot easier to believe.
And now we are back to the whole Alec discussion. Alec made SAM and could, and possibly did, add shackles whenever he wanted. The assumption that he did so would allow us to continue to uncover the breadcrumbs of Alec's master plan over the following games. We may discover that Ellen was part of this too.
More to the point, Alec obviously planned to turn over the SAM link to one or more of his family at some point, and had obviously prepared these memories to play out for them over time. He probably set them to be keyed by a certain series of the organic user's neural maps. The glowing points in space are a visual representation of when Ryder's sensory, physical, and neurological stimulation brought their neural map into close enough approximation of the required neural map to "unlock"
But what does it mean that Zha'til were "hacked"? They were sentient, self-aware... I *guess* it is similar to running a virus to convert Geth heretics in ME2, which makes them use different round-ups for *one* type of equation - and which can result in them coming to much different conclusions. It can be compared to mind-bending drugs or practices.The thing is that - as with every sentient being - subjugating to drugs, diseases, circumstances is... Well, controversial. People under influence of drugs or alcohol are usually expected to be still responsible for their own actions, excluding some rare cases when they were tricked into taking them. We *do not know* if Zha'til subjugated to Reapers on their own accord or if they were tricked into it. Please note that Geths actually made deal with the Reapers during ME3 - they were not automatically "converted*. And when given some other chance to survive they actively fought against the indoctrination.
E.g. SAM is able to detect Knight's virus early enough to prevent it from taking effect.
It means that SAM is "intelligent" and self-aware enough to protect itself from majority of intrusions. Zha'til were not capable or not willing to do that - which means that they eventually failed. It is not an obvious case, we lack a lot of data - and You are actually quite right that in the result it is not the best argument from my side. But it is still *true* that developing Zha'til turned out differently than Zha wanted it to.
as to what hacking actually refers to in this regard? i'm not sure, as it's not elaborated on. reaper based (and perhaps even geth based) electronic warfare tech is likely more sophisticated then what knight had to work with... even with edi, remember how quickly & quietly the reaper virus hit the normandy in me2? and that virus was pointed primarily at disabling the ship, if it had been tuned to attacking the ai, would edi have been able to stop it? that was also supposition, she very well might have been able to kill the virus if it had targeted her first, though perhaps not, and remember she's partly reaper based too, so if she could survive that might have been a reason why.
so we just don't know. i also think it's a bit naive to compare hijacking sentient AI, to say getting it drunk, smoking dope, or shooting up. are you serious?
If it is SAM, then why would SAM help Ryder with finding out about Jien Garcen's death being murder and then allow the revealing of the existence of this mysterious benefactor to begin with?
For the same reason SAM is giving you any of the subplots in dribs and drabs. The "memory blocks" have been removed. The benefactor, Jien, and fate of the Milky Way are all tied together.
You could argue that Alec blocked all reference to Ellen from memory but, unless I didn't understand the flashback, SAM has known your Ma was in cryo the whole game - just didn't tell you any faster than what hitting progress unlocks allowed. I'm not even sure if SAM didn't arrange it all itself. I know I would look for ways around suddenly missing information and an AI has infinitely greater processing speed and raw computing power to put to the task.
SAM is leading you slowly through the scenario at a speed, and with conclusions, it is comfortable with.
I don't know. In ME2 EDI had a bunch of information that was part of her but she was unaware of/cut off from due to the AI shackles. When Joker removed them he gave her access to them again. AIs are powerful, but there are ways to block them which they cannot get around on their own. The way the Alec memory missions play out you are effectively an organic key to a series of individual shackles, and each trigger helps set a mental map that releases 1 "tumbler" in the lock
Unless you think the tumblers/shackles continue on to future games, they been removed. SAM says he finds them being there in the first place unique. Even if SAM didn't have direct information it can do that post-mortem reconstruction trick and try to recreate whatever got intentionally blocked - a trick EDI was never capable of pulling.
The whole arrangement is kinda hokey in the first place. Markers tied to physical locations nobody has ever been to be construed as "progress" along the Pathfinder path that I'm given as something dad did with a simple "encrypt memories" command. SAM wasn't aware of the command being possible or what it would encrypt is a pretty big stretch. Complicity is a whole lot easier to believe.
And now we are back to the whole Alec discussion. Alec made SAM and could, and possibly did, add shackles whenever he wanted. The assumption that he did so would allow us to continue to uncover the breadcrumbs of Alec's master plan over the following games. We may discover that Ellen was part of this too.
More to the point, Alec obviously planned to turn over the SAM link to one or more of his family at some point, and had obviously prepared these memories to play out for them over time. He probably set them to be keyed by a certain series of the organic user's neural maps. The glowing points in space are a visual representation of when Ryder's sensory, physical, and neurological stimulation brought their neural map into close enough approximation of the required neural map to "unlock"
While it may be possible that Alec constructed all of this and made SAM an unwilling participant - it doesn't make any sense. Why? What would be gained? Just because you can construct some argument to make it theoretically possible does not make it probable. SAM tells me this is a unique thing. SAM's log tells me before Alec dies that Cora is to be his successor.... unless you carefully study the wording which leaves theoretical wiggle room. People trying to wiggle out of things set up particular definitions and wiggle room in their wording. SAM tells me his abilities are beyond what the Initiative can comprehend... and Alec is part of the Initiative.
It's your brother. It's mom and dad are your mom and dad. The entire "human experience" is based on Alec and his interpretations of things, reasoning, and motives. SAM is an extension of Alec that lives in my head. As quick as he decides the only way out of the Archon's trap is to kill me I *do* ask him if there's any other solution and it doesn't even pause for a full second before replying that there's none - that might be just because that is what the script calls for... or it only took him the time the Archon chatted with me to consider every other theoretical possibility. It is working fast and was designed to solve problems, largely before I am even aware there are problems. I don't think an encrypt memory command is going to disable SAM. Why even bother? Alec doesn't need to.
for a machine those 2 seconds sam took before replying is a eternity thats why ai is superior to the human mind in the time it takes us to come up with a solution the ai has already carried out said solution all this miss trust of sam makes me think that our own society is to narrow minded for true ai
for a machine those 2 seconds sam took before replying is a eternity thats why ai is superior to the human mind in the time it takes us to come up with a solution the ai has already carried out said solution all this miss trust of sam makes me think that our own society is to narrow minded for true ai
Well, it's not like SAM comes up with the creative solution.
"It will take years if not decades to find Meridian, Ryder."
Suvi. "We'll plot the course by mapping the 'currents' of the Scourge and using Remnant scout vessels! Only days!"
for a machine those 2 seconds sam took before replying is a eternity thats why ai is superior to the human mind in the time it takes us to come up with a solution the ai has already carried out said solution all this miss trust of sam makes me think that our own society is to narrow minded for true ai
I concur. SAM has half the game to figure out how to get around an "encrypt memories" command. It takes him all of a handful of seconds to figure out how to defeat Knight's virus. She may be no Alec, but programming Overlord means she's no slouch.
If the game is to be believed, it takes him the length of time you fight off some Kett to fully teach itself remnant and how to work the tech from Alecs sensory imput looking at a console.
i was refering to when he kills you arthurh3535 sam has already calculated all means of escape and found the only way to escape is to kill you lets say for that encounter you didn't have sam you'd have no way out and most likely end up a lab experiment or exalted ... so ye I put my trust in sam :D
i was refering to when he kills you @arthurh3535 sam has already calculated all means of escape and found the only way to escape is to kill you lets say for that encounter you didn't have sam you'd have no way out and most likely end up a lab experiment or exalted ... so ye I put my trust in sam :D
Like I have a choice? 😃
Forced synthesis was the route Bioware decided to take Mass Effect for us and to put an end to the Milky Way since the player base wouldn't agree. This time they wrote it so I couldn't use Shep as an argument for not accepting it too - I got someone green and pretty wishy-washy about... pretty much anything..
I dunno n7's and shepard in general always seemed overrated in the end its the player not the character that is the successful one put shepard in the game as a enemy and s/he would go down like any other opponent probley wouldn't even be much of a fight I mean i get that people are a fan of the character but shepard in the same situation without sam would still face the same posibility of lab experiment or exaltation even as green behind the ears "which sara and scott aren't actually sara being ex alliance same with scott" I still don't know where people get the rapid response thing with scott by his own admission in the game he has no such backstory :D he was simply a babysitting a relay it could be a novel vs game inconsitency i guess i prefer to take the ingame responses as the real canon but thats just a personal choice specially after companies like blizzard likes to contradict or re-write their novel canon :D
a similiar event would be the end of mass effect 3 in all endings you die there no choice no way out even the "invicibile" commander shepard has no way out the end result is the same you died ...
the rapid response thing is in the lore (aka codex) in the first trilogy.
if alliance forces are stationed at a relay (especially arcturus) they are there to react to any hostile action that is beyond the capabilities of the garrison forces to deal with.
so in the alliance actually watching over a relay, is to be part of a rapid deployment unit.
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