Re: I Like Sloane

Nexus leadership is what created this people tann's incomptence created a lot of situations that frankly if the founder was still alive would most likely never have happend then there is addison's two faced act where she claims to trust you but goes behind your back and makes all sort of terrible plans that backfire helariously can't you blame sloane for sidding with the rebellion against this two idiots honestly spender is simply the product of a much larger problem I'm not saying Sloane are Reyes are good people I'm merely saying that they are the product of nexus incomptency

@mcsupersport

Poison has been in base since beginning.....yup, I consider it in many ways worse than a bomb or gun, because one of the things MOST useful about poison is that it is usually hidden and a way to kill without anyone knowing WHO or WHEN(usually) someone was actually poisoned.

I do understand that poison seems to be devious, and I somehow sympathize with Your perceiving it to be worse than guns and bombs. But I still believe that "how" and "on whom" is more important. Just please consider: young boy scout poisoning a bad Nazi for torturing his mom until death; and the said Nazi shooting praying Jews in the getto with a big machine pistol, and then blowing houses with occupants still inside... :-(

And how about drugs? Do You believe poison to be worse than drugs?

And ahh, poor Reyes, he is fighting such a bad person, it is OK, to torture people, poison them, execute prisoners instead of letting them go or taking them with you, it is ok, to doublecross agreements, and it is ok to use people JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE FIGHTING SOMEONE SOOOO BAD...

Well, Sloane is *not* officially fighting paupers, Angara, and other exiles, but she still tortures them, executes them (please note that if Collective released Outcasts then those Outcasts would in a short while fight against them again; which is NOT the case of Sloane/Outcasts vs. Vehn Terev), drugs own subjects, etc.

And yes: I believe that when a weaker party fights the *oppressor* then it is entitled to employ *some* of the more controversial methods. For me goals are just as important as means.

Please note that the poison can be used e.g. to provide means to Collective agents to commit suicide when caught by Outcasts.

I wasn't actually expecting them to still be allies....I expected them to NOT BE THERE...

Uh... How is it a fault of partisan/guerrilla fighters to be in their secret base? You would prefer all of them to be already caught up by Outcasts and shot in the back front of their heads? :-o

I was more making a point that Reyes is JUST as dirty or more so than Sloane, and can't be trusted any more than She can, and probably even less, since he plays at being your Friend.

OK, but I still can't see Your point. How is he more dirty, and can't be trusted? You decided to act against him, and probably even shot him. How do You expect him to react so You can considered him trustworthy?

But hey, this is my opinion and what I prefer.....

Sure thing. But just one more thing for consider...

You are *assuming* that Reyes will turn out bad. There are no proves he will, while there are many arguments proving he won't... But OK - You *assume*.

How can You be sure that in one week after the game's ends Sloane will not bomb the Nexus and then run a full frontal assault on Eos? After all the fact that she does not allow Outcasts to fight the Collective at first may be very well because she is rallying forces for something... bigger. Has she ever told You that she is not willing to clash with the Initiative? I guess she has never promised You a truce or anything, right?   ;-)

@ViViD_Prime

Nexus leadership is what created this people tann's incomptence created a lot of situations that frankly if the founder was still alive would most likely never have happend then there is addison's two faced act where she claims to trust you but goes behind your back and makes all sort of terrible plans that backfire helariously can't you blame sloane for sidding with the rebellion against this two idiots

I guess that You forgot to mention that Sloane was one of the Nexus leaders prior to the uprising, and was consciously hiding the truth about the mission from them along with Tann and Addison - which was the very issue that sparked the mutiny. And it was always Spender who was conspiring and stirring people up. Right, he was an assistant to Addison, so I guess she *can* be blamed, but still it was Spender rather than Addison, and definitely not Tann. And please note that Sloane was accepting to Spender as well.

All Tann's decisions were generally correct - his main fault was that he was unable to communicate them in a way that would convince people. Which is expected - he was a mathematician rather than a charismatic leader. In the result he had consciously depended on Addison and Sloane to communicate with others... And well, You surely see where it got him, especially with Sloane. His last fault was to fall into Spender's scam about Krogans (Spender deliberately "promised" them more than he was allowed), and then not being able to overcome own specism/racism.

So yap, Sloane *can't* be blame for siding with the rebellion against... herself? ;-)

Kondaru wrote:

@mcsupersport

Poison has been in base since beginning.....yup, I consider it in many ways worse than a bomb or gun, because one of the things MOST useful about poison is that it is usually hidden and a way to kill without anyone knowing WHO or WHEN(usually) someone was actually poisoned.

I do understand that poison seems to be devious, and I somehow sympathize with Your perceiving it to be worse than guns and bombs. But I still believe that "how" and "on whom" is more important. Just please consider: young boy scout poisoning a bad Nazi for torturing his mom until death; and the said Nazi shooting praying Jews in the getto with a big machine pistol, and then blowing houses with occupants still inside... :-(

And how about drugs? Do You believe poison to be worse than drugs?

Just as a note: poison as a small scale is always used for murder, and if you go larger scale you get the Jonestown lemonade, gas showers, or chemical weapons, all of which tend to be considered exceptionally bad.

As for bombs, they are mixed use devices, as they can be used for civilian purposes, like mining and demolitions, military purposes, like bombing ISIS, or terrorist purposes, like bombing places of worship or mass transit

Guns are much the same, except they are capable of being much more precise. Civilians can use them to hunt food and stop dangerous wildlife and people which are endangering them, soldiers use them to kill bad guys and enemy soldiers, and gangs and terrorists use them to kill whoever they feel like

Also, someone checked, and if you don't give the formula to Dr. Nakamura during the drug quest, the drugs are still being sold after Reyes takes over, presumably on the behest of whoever is running Kedara Port

Kondaru wrote:

@mcsupersport

And ahh, poor Reyes, he is fighting such a bad person, it is OK, to torture people, poison them, execute prisoners instead of letting them go or taking them with you, it is ok, to doublecross agreements, and it is ok to use people JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE FIGHTING SOMEONE SOOOO BAD...

Well, Sloane is *not* officially fighting paupers, Angara, and other exiles, but she still tortures them, executes them (please note that if Collective released Outcasts then those Outcasts would in a short while fight against them again; which is NOT the case of Sloane/Outcasts vs. Vehn Terev), drugs own subjects, etc.

And yes: I believe that when a weaker party fights the *oppressor* then it is entitled to employ *some* of the more controversial methods. For me goals are just as important as means.

While both sides use Rodney King beatings as part of their tactics, possibly out of the same pissed off code of maintaining public order (but without any question of racism), we only have proof of the Collective using more traditionally recognized torture methods. In fact, the torturee indicated that Sloane is generally averse to torture, and would just kill uncooperative hostiles

As for Vehn Terev, essentially that is a case of running a country with a large Catholic population, capturing the guy who sold Pope Francis to ISIS, and deciding to kill him after interrogating him with a large phone book

There is a fine line between guerilla warfare and terrorism, and the more you make use of "controversial methods" the closer you get to outright terrorism. For example, ISIS is using "controversial methods" to fight the oppressor right now

Kondaru wrote:

@mcsupersport

I wasn't actually expecting them to still be allies....I expected them to NOT BE THERE...

Uh... How is it a fault of partisan/guerrilla fighters to be in their secret base? You would prefer all of them to be already caught up by Outcasts and shot in the back front of their heads? :-o

I was more making a point that Reyes is JUST as dirty or more so than Sloane, and can't be trusted any more than She can, and probably even less, since he plays at being your Friend.

OK, but I still can't see Your point. How is he more dirty, and can't be trusted? You decided to act against him, and probably even shot him. How do You expect him to react so You can considered him trustworthy?

I was pissed that after I let the Charlatan go and DIDN'T shoot him, his personal squad of elite minions still automatically get sicced on me.

Thanks a lot friend. You claim you're trying to put together as many resources as you can and you decide to get your base wiped out and your stuff confiscated because after all the "white knight" missions you put me through I don't let someone get shot in the back. That's all I did. C'mon! What the heck man!?

If I don't shoot Reyes the base should still be on speaking terms with me, if potentially fairly irritated. So what if I don't act exactly like them, they already said I couldn't be in their little club

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@fudgietroll wrote:

I was pissed that after I let the Charlatan go and DIDN'T shoot him, his personal squad of elite minions still automatically get sicced on me.

Thanks a lot friend. You claim you're trying to put together as many resources as you can and you decide to get your base wiped out and your stuff confiscated because after all the "white knight" missions you put me through I don't let someone get shot in the back. That's all I did. C'mon! What the heck man!?

If I don't shoot Reyes the base should still be on speaking terms with me, if potentially fairly irritated. So what if I don't act exactly like them, they already said I couldn't be in their little club

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you do basically side with sloane, so what are they supposed to do, shake your hand, let you take a seat, & fix you some tea while there at it?

err, i'd actually avoid the tea if i were you.

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

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@fudgietroll wrote:

I was pissed that after I let the Charlatan go and DIDN'T shoot him, his personal squad of elite minions still automatically get sicced on me.

Thanks a lot friend. You claim you're trying to put together as many resources as you can and you decide to get your base wiped out and your stuff confiscated because after all the "white knight" missions you put me through I don't let someone get shot in the back. That's all I did. C'mon! What the heck man!?

If I don't shoot Reyes the base should still be on speaking terms with me, if potentially fairly irritated. So what if I don't act exactly like them, they already said I couldn't be in their little club

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you do basically side with sloane, so what are they supposed to do, shake your hand, let you take a seat, & fix you some tea while there at it?

err, i'd actually avoid the tea if i were you.

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I don't know about if you shoot him, but if you just let him go he sends you this email that runs something like "you made a bad call but I shoulda known you wouldn't let me shoot her in the back, I'm gonna go try and get more resources to save the world from Sloane, we're cool"

That being said, why not tell his guys that I'm still a potential asset, try to use me, rather than making me shoot on sight?

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@fudgietroll wrote:

I don't know about if you shoot him, but if you just let him go he sends you this email that runs something like "you made a bad call but I shoulda known you wouldn't let me shoot her in the back, I'm gonna go try and get more resources to save the world from Sloane, we're cool"

That being said, why not tell his guys that I'm still a potential asset, try to use me, rather than making me shoot on sight?

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Um, they don't stop shooting at you everywhere else unless you back Reyes in his takeover bid. The guys in the base probably took it as betrayal and decided to treat you like all the rest of the Collective.

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@arthurh3535 wrote:

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@fudgietroll wrote:

I don't know about if you shoot him, but if you just let him go he sends you this email that runs something like "you made a bad call but I shoulda known you wouldn't let me shoot her in the back, I'm gonna go try and get more resources to save the world from Sloane, we're cool"

That being said, why not tell his guys that I'm still a potential asset, try to use me, rather than making me shoot on sight?

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Um, they don't stop shooting at you everywhere else unless you back Reyes in his takeover bid. The guys in the base probably took it as betrayal and decided to treat you like all the rest of the Collective.

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They were always shooting at me everywhere else. These guys obeyed the Charlatan and worked with me. So either they won't obey Reyes as Charlatan, or he isn't interested in them working with me

@fudgietroll

you're likely a security risk now, in his place i wouldn't let you back into my hq.

my only regret about shooting reyes in that back is that my alliance training obviously didn't pay off and i didn't get to head shot the cowardly * :D

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@ViViD_Prime wrote:

my only regret about shooting reyes in that back is that my alliance training obviously didn't pay off and i didn't get to head shot the cowardly * :D

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I blame my aim being off because my shotgun suddenly turned into a pistol.

I blame them for not giving us the option some of us really wanted, which was ending a new underground boss-wannabe's life, even if it was by throwing a spoon at him.

i always wanted to kill a warlord with a pack of playing cards.

i used to say "i'm gonna dig your heart out with a plastic spork."

@fudgietroll

Just as a note: poison as a small scale is always used for murder, and if you go larger scale you get the Jonestown lemonade, gas showers, or chemical weapons, all of which tend to be considered exceptionally bad.

Nope, and I already gave one counter-example: Collective agents may be using poison as a mean to commit suicide when they are captured by Outcasts. To avoid being tortured/interrogated or something. Poison can be used as a mean to protect wares from vermin. And actually, at least since Paracelsus, it is well known that very small doses of poison has often beneficial effects and are used as medicines.

So no: poison is *not always* used for murder.

Also, someone checked, and if you don't give the formula to Dr. Nakamura during the drug quest, the drugs are still being sold after Reyes takes over, presumably on the behest of whoever is running Kedara Port

Yes, and I definitely don't like it. Though as far as I understood, they are sold *by the same guys*, and those had previously worked for Sloane. I don't really know how to interpret the fact: those dealers could have broken lose, they could have changed their employer (i.e. started working for Reyes), it can be some game glitch / Devs oversight... I really don't know, but if they are actually working for Reyes, that would definitely prevent me from liking him. I would still take his side, but I would no longer treat him as a potential buddy.

While both sides use Rodney King beatings as part of their tactics, possibly out of the same pissed off code of maintaining public order (but without any question of racism), we only have proof of the Collective using more traditionally recognized torture methods.  In fact, the torturee indicated that Sloane is generally averse to torture, and would just kill uncooperative hostiles

Uh... There are like 3 or 4 cases early on Kadara where Outcasts are beating people on Your eyes, up to the point of breaking bones. There are computer records about beating prisoners by Outcasts. Perhaps we define tortures differently, because I have never seen Collective agents doing anything else than beating. Or actually I have only seen *one* Collective agent beating *one* Outcast soldier; while I have seen *several* groups of Outcasts mobbing civvies *numerous* times...

As for Vehn Terev, essentially that is a case of running a country with a large Catholic population, capturing the guy who sold Pope Francis to ISIS, and deciding to kill him after interrogating him with a large phone book

Uh...  So You mean killing people because it is convenient and satisfies some of Your minions. So how it compares to capturing a guy who tortured numerous civvies, killed a number of Your friends, and bled Your family dry? Because some of people that like Sloane suggested that Collective should simply release all those captured Outcast mobsters rather than "shot them in back of their heads". I just commented that killing someone who is not a danger to You is still worse in my book than killing someone who is actively Your enemy.

Also (book lore): Sloane was the one who requested to outright kill first rebels on Nexus, and it was actually Tann and Addison who stopped him. To me Sloane is simply trigger-happy and loves when blood flows.   :-(

Eventually, Catholics are basically against the very idea of capital punishment, You know...   ;-)

There is a fine line between guerilla warfare and terrorism, and the more you make use of "controversial methods" the closer you get to outright terrorism. For example, ISIS is using "controversial methods" to fight the oppressor right now

ISIS are not partisans - they are literally declaring themselves a "country" (or "State"). Collective is a group of guerilla fighting against stronger oppressors.

Bur You are right - the more You use "controversial methods" the worse for everybody. Just please note that there is no mention about Collective ever using poison on Outcasts; and as far as tortures are concerned - they are bilateral.

I was pissed that after I let the Charlatan go and DIDN'T shoot him, his personal squad of elite minions still automatically get sicced on me.

Nope, You exclusively sided with Sloane, and then entered his secret base of operation. While he possibly does not treat Your actions "personal", he cannot trust You any longer as a possible ally. Would You just let Reyes enter SAM's core on Hyperion and Nexus hydroponics unrestricted after You foiled his plan? And actually I am quite sure that he would NOT temper with those as far as I read the man...   ;-)

You claim you're trying to put together as many resources as you can and you decide to get your base wiped out and your stuff confiscated because after all the "white knight" missions you put me through I don't let someone get shot in the back. That's all I did. C'mon! What the heck man!?

Which means that You voted with Your action on an open war instead of pulling out one sore tooth. *I* do understand that You were simply adhering to Your sense of honor, but to Reyes You took a side in the conflict. He can still like, he can not take this personal, but he cannot trust his men and secrets to be safe with You anymore. I do not blame him for that.

If I don't shoot Reyes the base should still be on speaking terms with me, if potentially fairly irritated. So what if I don't act exactly like them, they already said I couldn't be in their little club

If You defended sheriff of Nottingham from Robin Hood, the Marry Men should still talk to You rather than treat You as their foe? I sympathize with Your opinion, and I would be really glad if they just stopped You at the entry to their cave with something like "You are no longer wanted here" once. But unfortunately it is not how it works, and it is not surprising to me they actively opposed You.

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@Kondaru/fudgietroll wrote:

I was pissed that after I let the Charlatan go and DIDN'T shoot him, his personal squad of elite minions still automatically get sicced on me.

Nope, You exclusively sided with Sloane, and then entered his secret base of operation. While he possibly does not treat Your actions "personal", he cannot trust You any longer as a possible ally. Would You just let Reyes enter SAM's core on Hyperion and Nexus hydroponics unrestricted after You foiled his plan? And actually I am quite sure that he would NOT tamper with those as far as I read the man...   ;-)

You claim you're trying to put together as many resources as you can and you decide to get your base wiped out and your stuff confiscated because after all the "white knight" missions you put me through I don't let someone get shot in the back. That's all I did. C'mon! What the heck man!?

Which means that You voted with Your action on an open war instead of pulling out one sore tooth. *I* do understand that You were simply adhering to Your sense of honor, but to Reyes You took a side in the conflict. He can still like, he can not take this personal, but he cannot trust his men and secrets to be safe with You anymore. I do not blame him for that.

If I don't shoot Reyes the base should still be on speaking terms with me, if potentially fairly irritated. So what if I don't act exactly like them, they already said I couldn't be in their little club

If You defended sheriff of Nottingham from Robin Hood, the Marry Men should still talk to You rather than treat You as their foe? I sympathize with Your opinion, and I would be really glad if they just stopped You at the entry to their cave with something like "You are no longer wanted here" once. But unfortunately it is not how it works, and it is not surprising to me they actively opposed You.

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Heh. When has Reyes ever trusted me? An honest line here or there is *not* trust. All three of us in the cave (four if the sniper has any sense) know this isn't going to completely solve anything; we're just chopping the head off the snake either way. Body is going to thrash around regardless. It'll be quicker and less messy than a full out war - but only some. To even have a hope of a showdown actually tamping things down it is held at high noon in the middle of the street.

If I don't shoot him I am no more or less an ally than I ever was AND all I did was prevent him from killing Sloane. The 'war' that follows is all on him/them - as is any cleanup action if Sloane dies. I can't claim credit for shortening any bloodshed - nor do I get the blame if blood flows. Not my war to start or stop. To even theoretically have that power I would have to be given the option of killing either or letting them both live.

He's still going to try and con/trick me into doing his bidding either way in the future... and he'll have to be a little more careful how he formulates those plans any which way.

Can we like Sloane because we like her?

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@PandaTar wrote:

Can we like Sloane because we like her?

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We most certainly can. 😃

@Kondaru

Poison-

My rebuttal was based on your argument, which centered on the use of poison as an offensive weapon similar to guns and bombs. I considered and discarded the medicinal argument based on SAM's analysis. I will revisit the base and check, but I believe that the poison was being distilled down to a concentration much to high to be used for medicinal purposes other than assisted suicide. Also, please note that only some poisons can be used beneficially in any dose, the rest are just poison. I will count the suicide pill theory as possible, although there is little evidence that such a tool is being used frequently.

Drugs-

Trust Reyes or don't, but when he is in charge if he wanted them gone...

Torture-

You apparently haven't found the torture room out in the Badlands yet. Definitely the Collective, definitely a lot more than a beating. Go find it and get back to me

Vehn Terev-

Vehn Terev is a traitor and a spy and admits it. By the laws of war he can be killed on the spot even outside of pirate colonies. If she didn't kill him she would have to defend him against all of the Angara who would try and do it anyway. Theoretically she could turn him over to Aya, but she doesn't have a map and the local Angara want Aya to But Out (see Kedara intel in Resistance HQ). Her final option is to give him to a representative of a government she is still more or less at war with who shows up and promptly demands she hand him over.

Also, if I deserve to be shot at because my refusal to let Sloane get shot in the back makes me a threat, then someone who has actively collaborated with the Kett is definitely a threat

Note: if a "him" wanted to go in shooting it was probably Kandros not Sloane, as Sloane is a "her". Also, I have not read any Mass Effect novels, but based on the intel around the Nexus Sloane had joined the revolt before it even officially kicked off

Guerilla War-

Every Guerilla organization claims it either is an independent country or government or represents an independent country or government. The size or evident futility of a movement does not have any bearing on the morality of its actions. It is possible to fight a mostly clean guerilla war and win, see American Revolution, WW2 European Resistance groups, etc.

The Collective and the Outcasts pretty much seemed equal military-wise, and I doubt you will find many people who would buy the idea that the Outcasts are vastly more powerful than the Collective.

High Noon/Base-

Robin Hood has never shot the Sherriff in the back in any portrayal I've seen. It's always in the face(/front). I dragged around doing Robin Hood acts with Guy of Gisborne, who then gets huffy when I keep some joker from putting an arrow in the Sherriff's back because Robin Hood is better than that.

I exclusively sided with not letting someone get shot in the back. I have never actively worked against Reyes, and if he was as interested in pragmatism and saving the world from Sloane he'd test my friendship, not try to kill me

Reyes quests-

Yes, Reyes may just be helping solve problems that Sloane is ignoring, or...

Everyone knows the story of David and Goliath. Fewer people know the story of when David grew up, became king, and had an adult son of his own. There are some tough family problems that David handles poorly, but he loves his family and figures they love him back. However, his kid wants to take over and figures the old man must go, so he parks himself outside the gate to David's throne room, and when anyone goes to have the king help them out with a problem the kid grabs them, tells them the king is too busy for them, and offers to solve the problem himself. A bunch of solved problems later he turns his "helpfulness" into an army and goes gunning for Dad.

I feel like somewhere in there is an analogy to Reyes

I do not like Reyes and Tann! I do not like them, SAM-I-am.

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@Kondaru wrote:

Nexus leadership is what created this people tann's incomptence created a lot of situations that frankly if the founder was still alive would most likely never have happend then there is addison's two faced act where she claims to trust you but goes behind your back and makes all sort of terrible plans that backfire helariously can't you blame sloane for sidding with the rebellion against this two idiots

I guess that You forgot to mention that Sloane was one of the Nexus leaders prior to the uprising, and was consciously hiding the truth about the mission from them along with Tann and Addison - which was the very issue that sparked the mutiny. And it was always Spender who was conspiring and stirring people up. Right, he was an assistant to Addison, so I guess she *can* be blamed, but still it was Spender rather than Addison, and definitely not Tann. And please note that Sloane was accepting to Spender as well.

All Tann's decisions were generally correct - his main fault was that he was unable to communicate them in a way that would convince people. Which is expected - he was a mathematician rather than a charismatic leader. In the result he had consciously depended on Addison and Sloane to communicate with others... And well, You surely see where it got him, especially with Sloane. His last fault was to fall into Spender's scam about Krogans (Spender deliberately "promised" them more than he was allowed), and then not being able to overcome own specism/racism.

So yap, Sloane *can't* be blame for siding with the rebellion against... herself? ;-)

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Sloane was the only one talking to people outside the leadership AT ALL, and she did follow orders (for once, and against her better judgement) while mourning her best friend, who she never got to say good bye to. When things went wrong she was the only one who actually tried to fix it. And Sloane hates Spender and thinks he is untrustworthy.

Anyway, Tann is maybe 50% right in his decision-making up to the uprising